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[Exalted, ?] Most High

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Reckless_Sun said:
Guess what, the Icarnae betraying the Primordials is the reason Creation is in the state it is now. They did it to get access to the Cosmic X-Box. And when Odyssial tried to take that away, they killed him. Don't act like they have the moral superiority here. The Icarnae did it to save their own asses.
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No that is only ONE interpretation advanced by people, the OTHER one is that they cared about the mortals and other gods and were SICK of being treated like shit by the Primordials and always having to fix up Creation after one of them went on a rampage hell if the UCS was as much of dick as you say he wouldn't have sacrificed himself and let himself be taken hostage in order to save ONE mortal.
 
Diller said:
Wait can't we get limit for going against our intimacies? So if we focus on social stuff instead of getting stronger wouldn't that make us gain limit?
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By that argument, we'll never be able to gain Social skills without gaining lots of Limit, no matter what we choose here. I highly doubt that's true, otherwise that would close off an entire section of the game to us.
 
Cavalier said:
Odyssial is willing to destroy any and all obstacles to his goal. There are restraints, caveats, and some allowances for less than completely optimal allies; but in the end if you need to go for him to accomplish some critical objective then you will die. That is kind of a problem for most people once you get to applying such a principle in the real world.

The criticism of Odyssial is that he is a very good supervillian with a sympathetic motive but no scruples whatsoever. And if he wins every terrible thing he has done will be completely outweighed by the immense and perpetual good he will bring about. If, that is, your moral judgement is based solely on net utility.

Is that a character people really want to play?
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Yes, I would love to play a character like that. It'd be fifferent than what SV typically goes for and it'd make for a refreshing change.
 
Cavalier said:
Why would I do that? It would be massively inconsistent with the prior vote because it is so blatantly suboptimal a course of action given Odyssial's priorities, methods, and resources.
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Because we have a Major Tie to the people of Luseng and one of the main attractions of this choice (at least in my book) is the conflict between Ulyssian's emotions and his new set of priorities.
Elero said:
I'm pretty sure tracking down the soul of someone that died, implanting it in a body that's identical to the old one and then giving them the old person's memories is actually possible in Exalted. It just doesn't count as a resurrection.
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I am almost certain this is not the case, Solars watching their kids grow old and die wouldn't have anything near the tragedy they once had if they could just plop the down in a new body.
 
Cavalier said:
What do you think "playing the supervillain" entails other than choosing to do morally dubious things because they are expedient? We don't have to make those choices, but then what is the point of embracing Odyssial's power and methods if we go right back to an inconsistent, wishy-washy course where ruthlessness and sentimentality win and lose randomly?

Granted inconsistency and bipolar behavior are a curse of Quests by their nature...
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To the best of my understanding, we are not going to be playing the supervillan if we pick this option.
 
Da Boyz said:
Because we have a Major Tie to the people of Luseng and one of the main attractions (at least in my book) is the conflict between Ulyssian's emotions and his new set of priorities.
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Exactly. It wouldn't be inconsistent since we still keep our ties and intimacies and we can choose to act on them if we want to. And I think most people still want to keep Luseng-stuff, which means they will vote for it.

It's a separate decision-tree. We just make it effective to do so.
 
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Da Boyz said:
I am almost certain this is not the case, Solars watching their kids grow old and die wouldn't have anything near the tragedy they once had if they could just plop the down in a new body.
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Then explain why it wouldn't work? Souls reincarnate, and an eldar Solar could easily track down the soul of his dead child, then use craft genesis to warp it's new body to match the old one and implant the memories, assuming they were backed up.
 
Diller said:
Wait can't we get limit for going against our intimacies? So if we focus on social stuff instead of getting stronger wouldn't that make us gain limit?
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Only if you act like you're enjoying it! As long as Uly bitches and moans and has to be coerced into it, he's okay.

Da Boyz said:
Because that doesn't solve the underlying problems that make Creation such a shithole and would just be putting a bandaid on the problem.
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Indeed, the issue is one of suffering as much as death.

Cavalier said:
Why would I do that? It would be massively inconsistent with the prior vote because it is so blatantly suboptimal a course of action given Odyssial's priorities, methods, and resources.
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Indeed, though if you guys buy Sorcery and go Full Time Dilation it might be arguable that Time Dilation is better for accumulating strength than going to Lea would have been. Which would provide a reason to stay in Luseng, where access to sorcerous resources is (relatively) cheap and plentiful due to the burgeoning economy.

But that would indeed be a hard sell to make; Time Dilation alone probably isn't as good as going to Lea, unless you guys can articulate tons of benefits.
 
BSRK Aditya said:
We are not getting into the mindset of slaying few people to save many. That is not what this option is about.
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Dude. Odyissial just said that the lives of Luseng are inconsequtial to the amount of lives he could be saving if he didn't have to worry about governing Luseng. And his protectiveness of the people of Luseng is one of Uly's major ties!
 
Diller said:
Dude. Odyissial just said that the lives of Luseng are inconsequtial to the amount of lives he could be saving if he didn't have to worry about governing Luseng. And his protectiveness of the people of Luseng is one of Uly's major ties!
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Which is why it would be "optimal" for him to hand off Luseng to someone he trusts to protect and govern them properly while he works on saving the rest of Creation
 
Elero said:
Rihaku has multiple times compared Odyssial to Sauron and said that he is a monster, and this option makes Uly act a lot more like Ody.
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I have said that he can arguably be considered evil and a monster. He can also be considered a hero, and the only one that was concerned with actually doing the most good rather than paying lip-service to it with praise-generating flashy deeds. It's all a matter of perspective!
 
Elero said:
Rihaku has multiple times compared Odyssial to Sauron and said that he is a monster, and this option makes Uly act a lot more like Ody.
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Rihaku said:
I have said that he can arguably be considered evil and a monster. He can also be considered a hero, and the only one that was concerned with actually doing the most good rather than paying lip-service to it with praise-generating flashy deeds. It's all a matter of perspective!
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Indeed. Please explain why this option will make us a monster.
 
1986ctcel said:
Which is why it would be "optimal" for him to hand off Luseng to someone he trusts to protect and govern them properly while he works on saving the rest of Creation
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Wouldn't it be more "optimal" to have this person he trusts help him grow stronger instead? Unless they are so weak they can't really help with that, in which case how much can they really do for Luseng?

1986ctcel said:
We will still control him so we can vote to make him act LESS like a monster.
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And future votes will attach massive xp bounties to the monster options. We're seeing right now how people jump on the xp and make Uly a monster.
 
Rihaku said:
But that would indeed be a hard sell to make; Time Dilation alone probably isn't as good as going to Lea, unless you guys can articulate tons of benefits.
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There is a chance that Creation will be destroyed before we can get to Lea and thus we should stay nearby any potential crisis to better react to them? We know that Anys will have massively fortified Creation against us (possibly to it's detriment against other threats) by the time we get back? It would be best to get as powerful as possible before heading out to find Lea and a time-dialated Luseng provides the best place for that? The information contained in the Library Ragnar currently holds could go a long way in protecting Creation through Prophecies till we can more easily defend it on our own?
Elero said:
Then explain why it wouldn't work? Souls reincarnate, and an eldar Solar could easily track down the soul of his dead child, then use craft genesis to warp it's new body to match the old one and implant the memories, assuming they were backed up.
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Because that never happened in the Age of Glories as far as we know? If you are asking me why metaphysically speaking a magical god-king can't track down half the soul of his dead child and put it into a vat grown body created through magiscience then I really don't have the answer for you.
Elero said:
And future votes will attach massive xp bounties to the monster options. We're seeing right now how people jump on the xp and make Uly a monster.
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While the XP is attractive it would be nice if you didn't strawman and imply it is the only reason here.
 
I don't think it's about the Exp for most people. It's definitely not about the exp for me, at least. The exp is nice, but it's at best a minor side benefit. If I like or dislike an option, exp isn't going to sway me.

I don't think people are dogs who jump on the biggest pile of numbers.
 
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Rihaku said:
Resist side, you can certainly help your cause by coming up with additional applications of self-chilling trout!
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Alright let's think about this...

Clarity is a cold state of mind, and with all these self-chilling trouts flying around WE MAY CAUSE AN IMBALANCE IN TEMPERATURE.
THUS REQUIRING US TO MANIPULATE THE WEATHER FOR OUR BENEFITS, TIME BETTER SPENT TRAINING.

Q.E.D WE WANT LESS CLARITY, TO STAY WARM.
 
Alectai said:
We're getting that vote now, a significant number of people are diving right into it.

The incentives to being a greater monster aren't going to go away, if anything, they're going to get even more lucrative.
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No the incentives to GROW STRONGER in order to deal with the big threats to Creation are going to get more lucrative.

Elero said:
Wouldn't it be more "optimal" to have this person he trusts help him grow stronger instead? Unless they are so weak they can't really help with that, in which case how much can they really do for Luseng?


And future votes will attach massive xp bounties to the monster options. We're seeing right now how people jump on the xp and make Uly a monster.
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But then how could the people of Luseng be protected? if the person we trust is with US instead of protecting them and no we WON'T BE GIVEN INCENTIVE TO BECOME A MONSTER, we will be given incentive to GROW STRONGER and we can still vote to mitigate that with write-in options or stunts.
 
Elero said:
Wouldn't it be more "optimal" to have this person he trusts help him grow stronger instead? Unless they are so weak they can't really help with that, in which case how much can they really do for Luseng?
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Because we are not going to become robots "optimizing" everything?


And future votes will attach massive xp bounties to the monster options. We're seeing right now how people jump on the xp and make Uly a monster.
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I assure you, if I think some option will make us a monster, I will not be jumping to pick it up. I will consider the problem very carefully.
 
BSRK Aditya said:
Yes. That still is not slaying the few to save the many. We are not killing the people of Luseng to save creation.
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Sure because that isn't optimal right now. If the chances of saving Creation we're increased by destroying Luseng guess what Ody would do?

Us in Limit Break means we are in full the ends justify the means mindset and "give completely no fucks for anyone". I mean the only reason Ody didn't kill Moon and Nilul right off the bat was because they were still useful to him.It wasn't friendship or love that saved them but their current usefulness to him. He even said for now which implies that if they ever lose that usefulness he won't think twice about killing them if he has to.

Which is why I really want to ensure that future limit breaks we have are lessened in scope and that we have incentive to get rid of the great curse because Uly actually considering killing Moon and Nilul is not okay by any means. These are people has major ties to and he actually considered killing them. If they had been less important...

Rihaku said:
Indeed, though if you guys buy Sorcery and go Full Time Dilation it might be arguable that Time Dilation is better for accumulating strength than going to Lea would have been. Which would provide a reason to stay in Luseng, where access to sorcerous resources is (relatively) cheap and plentiful due to the burgeoning economy.

But that would indeed be a hard sell to make; Time Dilation alone probably isn't as good as going to Lea, unless you guys can articulate tons of benefits.
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Eye twitch.

Time Dilation or Lea.

The benefits we could get from Time Dilation when you factor in that we no longer need sleep could be incredible.

Yet I had planned on embarking to a journey to the East after we had dealt with Anys, explored that emerald Mountain, and secured Luseng.

Why must you keep torturing me like this Rihaku.
 
Rihaku said:
No. You're not even going to be in Limit Break the vast majority of the time,
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Rihaku said:
*He will not become an emotionless robot outside of Limit Break
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Rihaku said:
he will still experience the full range of human emotions, as suboptimal normal, and will have to deal with how those interact and conflict with his new priorities. It should be fun!
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I think this is a fairly strong point towards the fact that we're not going to be forced to be evil or choose to murder or friends anything like that. We will not necessarily murder them because it's "optimal," because we keep control. And if we're not stupid, it won't be necessary anyway.

I'm pretty sure people aren't going to mindlessly vote for the options which give the most exp, either. We have mostly voted against those options so far. One option that gives XP does not 'always exp all the time' make.
 
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