[Exalted, ?] Most High

[Dream Logic]

Eh, I kind'a ranted again earlier on the page. I think alot of us who want to avoid the limit break aren't doing it because we're against efficiency or 'just' sentimentality(though I will admit, I genuinely do not like this as a character development, I like uly most when he's being emotional and having friends and being a human).

We're against it because Limit us is so desperate to 'find a way' and he's so high on heartlessness and convinced that he's correct he'd happily dive off the deep end because his mind is closer to a yozi or a primordial then an average human. That concept of good and benevolence is so veeeery hard to pin, he's the type who could create Olemas* in the first place.

He can solve any problem, but he'll do it HIS way, with HIS values, and HIS solution...honestly if we succeeded on this path I fear he'd be the equivalent of the Unconquered Sun, or end up like the Primordials in this new creation.

*Omelas, the city from the 'The Ones Who Walk Away From Omelas', it's a a utopian city(by whatever your ideals are) that exists because they keep one child in such abject misery that it inspires the perfection in the rest as a response...some will leave and some will stay, but one wonders what type of person could create that solution in the first place.

EDIT: Why can't I be brief? I feel that Uly on Limit is closer to a Primordial then a human and his arrogance combined with alienation from the people he wishes to help will ensure that his solution fails in the long term.

 

[Anasurimbor]

Moral arithmetic aside, I don't think humanity or creation will survive without Odyssial. Creation will certainly be destroyed if he returns to his full power, but at this rate, creation will certainly be destroyed if Ulyssian doesn't rise to the challenge. I don't believe we have the xp generation or the will to stick to a good plan that's needed to save creation and humanity.

Click to shrink...

Creation does not lack for the power it needs to survive. It has many defenders of great puissance. What it lacks is the coordination to use that power to survive rather than fight amongst themselves. What it lacks is not the will to power, but rather the will to compromise. A diplomat is far likelier to save the world than a conqueror.

It is simply madness to argue that the only hope is to embrace the Great Curse, the very thing that drove Creation to the brink of destruction and ushered in the end of a Golden Era.

 

[winking sequence]

And guess what?

I don't care about that bullshit "You must discard your heart or lose" statement.

I don't care how much Rihaku rewards it, or how much Creation is built that way. If someone that is portrayed as virtually omnipotent is unwilling to use gentler means, he's unlikely to make a world that would be recognizable in any way, shape, or form to the people who live there. Even if he thinks it would be a paradise, it's likely a far greater number of people would consider it an unending hell beyond comprehension.

And no, I don't care how much Rihaku or anyone else tries to defend him, arguing that he can perfectly model the human mind and perfectly take steps that everyone will find to be a paradise. If he could do that, he wouldn't have failed, because he would have taken steps that would have resulted in zero conflict, because a 100% chance of success that takes 100 years, is generally more tolerable than a 90% chance that takes 10 years, especially if he's going to migrate every soul over to the new world anyway, the guarantee of a paradise just by taking your time should be taken over "Make Paradise now, there is a 99.99% chance of success, and a small but measurable chance of failure".

Click to shrink...

Just why is embrace a "You must discard your heart or lose" option? It is, at it's core, a prioritization of saving the many over coddling the few. We are doing this because we are explicitly too weak to do otherwise! Considerations on the lathe is not even present on the map.

 

[vel10]

*Omelas, the city from the 'The Ones Who Walk Away From Omelas', it's a a utopian city(by whatever your ideals are) that exists because they keep one child in such abject misery that it inspires the perfection in the rest as a response...some will leave and some will stay, but one wonders what type of person could create that solution in the first place.

Click to shrink...

Omelas is something of a social commentary about how our own paradise/1st world is based on the suffering of others, though. Omelas is, in and of itself, much better than what we have, from a utilitarian point of view. Our world today is built on the backs of lots of suffering, not just one person's.

Which is the point of the story: if you react with horror, why aren't you reacting with horror to our own world?

However, it's not that relevant here.

 

[Reckless_Sun]

No, he didn't. Odyssial failed because the Sidereals looked upon their Celestial brethren and said "We can't allow this to stand." If the Usurpation hadn't happened odds are good he could have succeeded in his grand plan. Granted, I expect a large part of him failing is Plot Fiat, it's hard to play as his reincarnation if he's successful, but we still have to make sense of it within the context of what has happened.

Click to shrink...

The Sidereals saying "We can't allow this to stand." is because they are the people in power that wants to stay in power. It's the reason that the Icarnae intervened.

The solars were ignoring the Sidereals and relegating them to janitors. Once the sidereals killed the solars, they're now the secret masters of the world. See, this was all about power all along and had nothing to do with right or wrong.

They couldn't embrace Odyssial's vision because they fear that they will have no place in it.

 

[Cavalier]

Odyssial is willing to destroy any and all obstacles to his goal. There are restraints, caveats, and some allowances for less than completely optimal allies; but in the end if you need to go for him to accomplish some critical objective then you will die. That is kind of a problem for most people once you get to applying such a principle in the real world.

The criticism of Odyssial is that he is a very good supervillian with a sympathetic motive but no scruples whatsoever. And if he wins every terrible thing he has done will be completely outweighed by the immense and perpetual good he will bring about. If, that is, your moral judgement is based solely on net utility.

Is that a character people really want to play?

 

[Dream Logic]

Omelas is something of a social commentary about how our own paradise/1st world is based on the suffering of others, though. Omelas is, in and of itself, much better than what we have, from a utilitarian point of view. Our world today is built on the backs of lots of suffering, not just one person's.

Click to shrink...

Honestly, that story is suuuuuuuuper open for interpretation via applicable themes(No idea on what or if it was meant to be about something in-particular though, death of the author's fun like that). I just meant to show how alien limit us can be. He'd build a paradise on the suffering of an innocent that may or may not be necessary because his calculations said it was the best way.

Limit-Us reminds me of a Primordial...that's scares me.

 

[Alectai]

Just why is embrace a "You must discard your heart or lose" option? It is, at it's core, a prioritization of saving the many over coddling the few. We are doing this because we are explicitly too weak to do otherwise! Considerations on the lathe is not even present on the map.

Click to shrink...

And guess what? When you get into that mindset, it becomes easier and easier to accept greater and greater sacrifices on the altar of your ambition. "I will slay 100 to save a thousand. I will slay a thousand to save a million, I will slay a million to save a billion, I will slay every living and sapient being in all of existence to build a new existence that isn't as terrible."

Kiritsugu's ambition was never portrayed as being right and proper, nor was it considered right and proper when EMIYA took it up. It was explicitly monstrous the steps they were willing to go, how many atrocities they were willing to conduct to achieve their goals, using the final endgoal of "Saving People" to justify it.

And guess what? In every event where someone followed that ideal to the end, it came to the same outcome. The death and ruination of the one involved, and the suffering of their loved ones.

Even Odyssial was not exempt.

 

[Rihaku]

The problem is that at no point has any of his weaknesses ever been brought up. It's impossible to argue against someone when any time someone presents what should be a weakness, you chime in to point out "No, it's not actually a weakness because Odyssial wouldn't make a mistake like that.".

Click to shrink...

Havelock Vetinari also makes few mistakes. That doesn't mean that any right-thinking person should trust Havelock Vetinari to have their best interests in mind. Yes, Odyssial is extremely skilled. He is incredibly good at getting what he wants due to his extreme power and skill. But "what he wants" can be completely different from what you the players want. And it is absolutely fine and correct to point that out.

Again, you don't argue against the Big Bad by saying he's weak. You argue against him by saying he's evil. All his strength is a bad thing, just like Sauron's strength is a bad thing. People would prefer if Sauron were weaker, because he uses his power to do harm instead of good.

That said, Ulyssian has nowhere near Odyssial's power, so whether he can use High First Age Odyssial's methods anywhere near effectively IS very much up to debate.

We're inherently arguing only from the heart, and good fucking luck changing anyone's mind on that point over the internet. It's why I'm so resigned to what's about to happen, we're using sticks and stones against shining glory and unending rewards, and because of it, we're losing.

Click to shrink...

Mm, I don't think you guys are losing; it's very close. Certainly I'm not prioritizing moral arguments under arguments of raw power or effectiveness. Eloquence and insightful analysis also matters a great deal. Effectiveness only matters if you're being effective at a goal that's worthwhile, after all!

 

[Elero]

The Sidereals saying "We can't allow this to stand." is because they are the people in power that wants to stay in power. It's the reason that the Icarnae intervened.

The solars were ignoring the Sidereals and relegating them to janitors. Once the sidereals killed the solars, they're now the secret masters of the world. See, this was all about power all along and had nothing to do with right or wrong.

They couldn't embrace Odyssial's vision because they fear that they will have no place in it.

Click to shrink...

The Incarnae intervened because Odyssial was literally destroying Creation and defending Creation is literally their original purpose and motivation. And the Sidereals killed the Solars because they Solars were literally going to destroy Creation. Stuff like the Saliant Working or intentionally letting fae invasions in for war games. To claim the Sidereals killed the Solars for power is simply wrong and not supported by canon at all.

 

[Reckless_Sun]

Odyssial is willing to destroy any and all obstacles to his goal. There are restraints, caveats, and some allowances for less than completely optimal allies; but in the end if you need to go for him to accomplish some critical objective then you will die. That is kind of a problem for most people once you get to applying such a principle in the real world.

The criticism of Odyssial is that he is a very good supervillian with a sympathetic motive but no scruples whatsoever. And if he wins every terrible thing he has done will be completely outweighed by the immense and perpetual good he will bring about. If, that is, your moral judgement is based solely on net utility.

Is that a character people really want to play?

Click to shrink...

That actually sounds awesome.

 

[vel10]

I do have to agree with Alectai though, I feel like most of the worthwhile arguments have already been said, and we're just repeating ourselves over and over again.

 

[winking sequence]

Creation does not lack for the power it needs to survive. It has many defenders of great puissance. What it lacks is the coordination to use that power to survive rather than fight amongst themselves. What it lacks is not the will to power, but rather the will to compromise. A diplomat is far likelier to save the world than a conqueror.

It is simply madness to argue that the only hope is to embrace the Great Curse, the very thing that drove Creation to the brink of destruction and ushered in the end of a Golden Era.

Click to shrink...

But, guess what, this transcendent diplomat is no where to be found. We have to work with the cards we have been dealt with. Also we are not embracing the Great Curse. There is nothing in the option to suggest that this was the case, and Rihaku explicitly said that this was not the case.

 

[Alectai]

But, guess what, this transcendent diplomat is no where to be found. We have to work with the cards we have been dealt with. Also we are not embracing the Great Curse. There is nothing in the option to suggest that this was the case, and Rihaku explicitly said that this was not the case.

Click to shrink...

Odyssial could be that if he was willing to suck up his distaste for social interactions to apply his supernal brilliance to that regard.

Sadly, he will not.

 

[vel10]

...I will once again add that we can become a transcendent diplomat if we embrace the clarity. It does not prevent it. We are still in control of the character.

It, in fact, gives us more resources which we can use to devote to such an activity if we so choose to.

But, as I said, this is something that has already been mentioned and we're just repeating ourselves.

 

[Da Boyz]

And guess what? When you get into that mindset, it becomes easier and easier to accept greater and greater sacrifices on the altar of your ambition. "I will slay 100 to save a thousand. I will slay a thousand to save a million, I will slay a million to save a billion, I will slay every living and sapient being in all of existence to build a new existence that isn't as terrible."

Click to shrink...

Keep in mind that killing everyone loses a lot of it's impact when you are just going to resurrect them in your perfect utopia.

Kiritsugu's ambition was never portrayed as being right and proper, nor was it considered right and proper when EMIYA took it up. It was explicitly monstrous the steps they were willing to go, how many atrocities they were willing to conduct to achieve their goals, using the final endgoal of "Saving People" to justify it.

Click to shrink...

It wasn't portrayed as right and proper because it was always going to be impossible. When EMIYA became jaded and hellbent on killing himself it wasn't because he felt like his idea was monstrous or wrong but simply because he was tired of being forced to commit atrocities for the good of the many throughout history without seeing any real change.

Odyssial could be that if he was willing to suck up his distaste for social interactions to apply his supernal brilliance to that regard.

Sadly, he will not.

Click to shrink...

Here I was thinking that we had some kind of say in what charms Ulyssian buys how silly of me.

 

[Alectai]

...I will once again add that we can become a transcendent diplomat if we embrace the clarity. It does not prevent it.

It, in fact, gives us more resources which we can use to devote to such an activity if we so choose to.

But, as I said, this is something that has already been mentioned and we're just repeating ourselves.

Click to shrink...

Unlikely, the mindset is "Take the fastest and most efficient approach at all times". That kind of locks out spending time developing the foundational skills necessary when he can just impose Terrified Awe on everyone to get what he wants.

 

[Fumbles]

For those of you arguing for the sake of our friends, put a little more trust in them. Nilul, Moon, and The Lily have the means and the drive to influence Ulyssian/Odyssial. Give them a chance to achieve their own epic triumph, by changing the heart of the Most High!

 

[1986ctcel]

Creation does not lack for the power it needs to survive. It has many defenders of great puissance. What it lacks is the coordination to use that power to survive rather than fight amongst themselves. What it lacks is not the will to power, but rather the will to compromise. A diplomat is far likelier to save the world than a conqueror.

It is simply madness to argue that the only hope is to embrace the Great Curse, the very thing that drove Creation to the brink of destruction and ushered in the end of a Golden Era.

Click to shrink...

But it ISN'T the "Great Curse" it's Odyssials own rewritten version that simply boosts his ability to think about things without distractions, it doesn't do allow him to come up with anything that he wouldn't have thought of himself it just allows him to act as a super-calculator.

The Sidereals saying "We can't allow this to stand." is because they are the people in power that wants to stay in power. It's the reason that the Icarnae intervened.

The solars were ignoring the Sidereals and relegating them to janitors. Once the sidereals killed the solars, they're now the secret masters of the world. See, this was all about power all along and had nothing to do with right or wrong.

They couldn't embrace Odyssial's vision because they fear that they will have no place in it.

Click to shrink...

No that is WRONG, the Sidereals began the Usurpation because the Solars were FUCKING INSANE, They initiated shit like Operation Wyldhand which killed MILLIONS of innocent people because they were BORED and the Cauldronist faction who had similar ideas to Odyssial sounded like Wackjobs, the Incarne inteverned because Odyssial was throwing around SO MUCH POWER that Creation would have been destroyed before the Lathe could be completed and activated and they were OATHBOUND to defend Creation against threats (which Odyssial became).
The Sidereals became the "secret masters of the world" because no one ELSE was left to do the job and maintain the wonders of the First Age and they didn't "embrace Odyssial's vision" because it sounded CRAZY since they didn't believe that Creation was "too cruel" and that they could make a good and just society without needing to destroy and recreate Creation due to them not going crazy from Limit Breaks

 

[winking sequence]

Odyssial is willing to destroy any and all obstacles to his goal. There are restraints, caveats, and some allowances for less than completely optimal allies; but in the end if you need to go for him to accomplish some critical objective then you will die. That is kind of a problem for most people once you get to applying such a principle in the real world.

The criticism of Odyssial is that he is a very good supervillian with a sympathetic motive but no scruples whatsoever. And if he wins every terrible thing he has done will be completely outweighed by the immense and perpetual good he will bring about. If, that is, your moral judgement is based solely on net utility.

Is that a character people really want to play?

Click to shrink...

Please explain to me, Cavalier, why embrace clarity will lead to us to "destroy any and all obstacles to our goal".

 

[Rihaku]

We're inherently arguing only from the heart, and good fucking luck changing anyone's mind on that point over the internet. It's why I'm so resigned to what's about to happen, we're using sticks and stones against shining glory and unending rewards, and because of it, we're losing.

Click to shrink...

Oh, also, I would like to note that you guys will probably soon be meeting some characters that knew Odyssial, and which may shake the resolve of those who embrace him fully. Some people think Lytek's state was awesome, other people think it was horrible. But Lytek was mighty, and a critical component of the Celestial infrastructure, so Odyssial couldn't affect him in too many obvious ways.

We have not yet seen all the consequences of Rule 6 and Heartlessness 10. Not even close.

 

[vel10]

Unlikely, the mindset is "Take the fastest and most efficient approach at all times". That kind of locks out spending time developing the foundational skills necessary when he can just impose Terrified Awe on everyone to get what he wants.

Click to shrink...

I'm pretty sure from what Rihaku has said in the past, it doesn't lock us out of that. I will go find a quote if necessary, but I'm pretty sure that's wrong.

 

[Diller]

I just don't like Ulyssian not discovering how much of a bad thing the great curse is because he went the Odyissial route of just rolling with it. Seriously if we could find a way to break the Great Curse, then we can have Solar allies without having to worry about them inevitably going crazy every once and while. Not to mention how knowledge of the Great Curse would likely make Heaven extremely pissed at the Underworld and Hell since they caused/knew about the curse respectively If it wasn't for the great curse the Usurpation likely wouldn't happened and Creation wouldn't be in such a shitty state.

However Ulyssian is going to need incentive to actually question his actions while in limit break which will be hard considering it's him acting like he normally would but with literally
nothing but cold, hard logic and efficiency guiding him. Especially when you consider that limit breaking also restores his willpower reserves.

Sure Nilul and Moon could try to talk to him about it but he'll just justify his actions with "it was the best way to get rid of all the viziers." I mean Lea and Pearl either didn't care or couldn't convince Odyissial to not stay permanent limit break. Fairest somehow got to him and she even managed to greatly reduce the negative side effects of his limit break though even she apparently couldn't get him to try and actually get rid of the great curse. That or he didn't have the time to do so.

Not to mention the shitstorm this will cause with Lily since this is exactly the type of shit she is against. I really don't want to have to keep fighting her every time we limit break near her.(I say this since people want to convince Lily to stay near us so she can mitigate our limit break) Especially since we just might kill her depending on how annoying she seems to Odyissial and dice rolls. That's totally not going to make our relationship with Lily sour. And unlike our other friends we have a minor intimacy with Lily. Though it might be the kick in the pants he needs to go "hmm maybe i should rethink things."

 

[Reckless_Sun]

The Incarnae intervened because Odyssial was literally destroying Creation and defending Creation is literally their original purpose and motivation. And the Sidereals killed the Solars because they Solars were literally going to destroy Creation. Stuff like the Saliant Working or intentionally letting fae invasions in for war games. To claim the Sidereals killed the Solars for power is simply wrong and not supported by canon at all.

Click to shrink...

Actually, I remember one bit of canon lore that said the straw that broke the camel's back was when a Solar refused to kneel before his sidereal shifu. The Solars were ignoring the advice of their sidereal visizers but then you have to question how good those advice could be when Sidereals have their own curse.

But in this game, the Incarnae wanted to keep creation as is. Their actions were selfish because they could not see the good it will do for the common people. The gods are not perfect machines, they can choose to spent willpower to betray an intimacy. They didn't.

 

[Da Boyz]

Oh, also, I would like to note that you guys will probably soon be meeting some characters that knew Odyssial, and which may shake the resolve of those who embrace him fully. Some people think Lytek's state was awesome, other people think it was horrible. But Lytek was mighty, and a critical component of the Celestial infrastructure, so Odyssial couldn't affect him in too many obvious ways.

We have not yet seen all the consequences of Rule 6 and Heartlessness 10. Not even close.

Click to shrink...

Show us all the horror created by Creation's greatest god-king, we knew full well what we were getting into when we picked up so much Heartlessness in chargen.