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[Exalted, ?] Most High

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Orm Embar said:
Daniel's vote for Seat can be found here, it just wasn't formatted properly.
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meianmaru said:
Ah, that explains it. Good thing you noticed it. I'll have to be more careful in the future when checking on things.
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No, wait, spoke too soon. Check all of these links.

On page 517, the vote for the Empire that you noticed:
Daniel14541 said:
] The Seat of Empire
-[X] Call in Nelel
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On page 518, the vote for the Metropolis that I noticed:
Daniel14541 said:
[X] The Shining Metropolis
-[X] Call in Nelel
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And both of them get written over by his latest "vote":
Daniel14541 said:
-[X] Call in Nelel
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I just remembered how much I hate manual counting. :mad:
 
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Orm Embar said:
Vote tally:
##### 3.19
[X] The Seat of Empire
No. of votes: 15
Elero, Usernames, Gaudy Guise, Van Ropen, skaro, afterthought53, jean5, CrawlingChaos74, 1986ctcel, Thomasfoolery, DakkaMania, LordOfMurder, remulian, VanusDraco, Daniel14541

[X] The Polis of Legend
No. of votes: 7
SirLagginton, Savonarola, Orm Embar, Anasurimbor, WorldSlayer, Fumbles, mrttao

[X] The Shining Metropolis
No. of votes: 22
gigantisrex, Robotninja, Serous, Emerald Oracle, Alectai, Deadly Snark, jamie96969, meianmaru, Random Asian Person, inventive alias, Neptune, Valor, Katreus, cb_urk,Vitaris, Diller, cyberswordsmen, Algalon, Wing101, dragon, veekie, sithmor
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So
Polis plus empire added together can tie with metro if we combined them
Both @ 22
 
mrttao said:
Changing to
[X] The Polis of Legend

Empire will not win so i hope we can all switch to this middle of road option in time
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What makes you think it can't win?

meianmaru said:
Ah, that explains it. Good thing you noticed it. I'll have to be more careful in the future when checking on things.
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No worries, we really just need an approximate number!

Serous said:
Metropolis also allows us to further cement the loyalty of our citizens, mortals and Exalted alike. If we decide to expand with Empire, there would simply not be enough time for us to solidify the loyalty of the people. While we can defeat most forces due to our personal combat power, we are only one person, and can only be at one place at a time. Combining relatively slow travel speeds with the size of Creation, it means that of war breaks out on multiple fronts, we are ill equipped to deal with it.

In addition, the citizens are still nominally of the Immaculate Order, especially amongst the more senior satrapy. Thus, we cannot really depend too much on any Celestial Exalted that join us. It would get even worse if we are revealed as Anathema. That of course assumes that we can command the other Celestials, which is highly unlikely.
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Well, the armed forces would certainly still be very loyal to you. Also, the common citizenry of Luseng couldn't care less about the Immaculate Philosophy. The previous evangelizing force was the farthest thing from zealots, after all...
 
I'm more worried about any non Luseng territories that we would get with Empire. While Luseng is but a recently conquered Satrapy, the others are liable to have been with the Realm longer and thus the Order would be more entrenched. Furthermore, unlike Luseng, we would be a conqueror, not savior, while also having far less time to devote to gaining their loyalty.
 
Serous said:
I'm more worried about any non Luseng territories that we would get with Empire. While Luseng is but a recently conquered Satrapy, the others are liable to have been with the Realm longer and thus the Order would be more entrenched. Furthermore, unlike Luseng, we would be a conqueror, not savior, while also having far less time to devote to gaining their loyalty.
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You wouldn't just be picking up Realm territories! The Threshold is far more expansive than that.
 
[X] The Seat of Empire

Since Polis doesn't appear to have a prayer of winning, I'm switching to my second favorite choice. Of the other two, Empire is the choice that I feel best uses our skills. We are a peerless warrior and conqueror, not an administrator. That's the whole reason that we chose Luseng instead of the other Satrapy. It's not that were bad at administering, but that our comparative advantage is very much in the swording. Prophet of 17 cycles, which is so useful for administration, is no less useful in War.

I would feel more comfortable with metropolis if we had a robust Necro-Economy to support it. Then again, a war of conquest unification would have provided ample fuel for the necroeconomy to grow. If we don't expand, we'll want a strong ally like Lily, but she would also be great at winning the loyalty of newly conquered nations.

Even though they may be weaker than us, I wouldn't discount the celestial allies that Empire will allow us to gain. There are entire areas of skill that we completely lack, even counting our DB allies. A relatively low level Eclipse could provide incredible bureaucratic skills, while a weaker Twilight might still be an incredible crafter or doctor. Most Exalts are probably going to be a little more specialized than Ulyssian is, which makes them relatively more useful, if you can combine them into a large group.

Sure, we'll we attract powerful opposition, but that is because we will be doing so much, and changing so many things. We're going to make enemies sooner or later, so let's make them on our terms. Besides, who doesn't want to crush the Bull of the North and his many newly-acquired allies in a giant war over the fate of an entire Direction?
 
With this, Empire and Metropolis really are very close. The quintessential battle of Tall vs Wide! A few well-placed arguments on either side could decide it, really.
 
Serous said:
I'm more worried about any non Luseng territories that we would get with Empire. While Luseng is but a recently conquered Satrapy, the others are liable to have been with the Realm longer and thus the Order would be more entrenched. Furthermore, unlike Luseng, we would be a conqueror, not savior, while also having far less time to devote to gaining their loyalty.
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What? It says NOTHING about us conquering other satrapy's, I interpreted it as us going out and conquering MORE kingdoms in the threshold to add on to our Satrapy (and by extension the Realm)
 
Well, like I said, the Best option from a 4X point of view is to build Tall And Wide, but Polis has too few votes for me to consider turning my cloak there.
 
Well if you want to build tall you have to build wide first to get a good strong foundation or else it'll just end up really weak, more territory means more resources to exploit after all so choose empire so we can lay the groundwork.
 
Alectai said:
Well, like I said, the Best option from a 4X point of view is to build Tall And Wide, but Polis has too few votes for me to consider turning my cloak there.
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Mmm, depends on the definition. Breaking 4 cities on Civ V, for example. I wouldn't say that Polis has the benefits of both in equal measure.

1986ctcel said:
Well if you want to build tall you have to build wide first to get a good strong foundation or else it'll just end up really weak, more territory means more resources to exploit after all so choose empire so we can lay the groundwork.
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While the civ metaphor can be useful, remember that it is only a model. The 'real world' of the story has much more room for possibility.
 
Prophet can be best used with Metropolis, as it allows us to gather a lot of information, while also giving us a fortified position through which makes it hard for any of our enemies to target. Furthermore, with Metis, our bureaucracy is only 2 die lower than war.

As for Celestial allies, their main weakness would be that it is highly unlikely that they learnt Perfect Mirror, which means that they cannot use too much power where people can see their anima. They also would have their own agenda, which we would need to manage. As for Lily, as a confirmed Anathema, depending on her in public is going to turn the Realm against us.

Another factor is that by expanding so much, it leaves our foundation quite weak. Even discounting the fact that we make up a significant fraction of Luseng's military might, the lack of infrastructure will impair vital administrative functions while also making it easy for our enemies to attack and subvert. We can only manage so many things at once, after all.

Also, by becoming such a big target, it can cause our enemies to team up to deal with us. As long as we are relatively small time and not visibly expansive, there would be many other threats that they have to deal with. But if we expand too fast and too successfully, it is highly likely that we would be targeted first as we would become a too massive a threat to ignore.
 
Yeah, generally speaking, in games that support it, I try to build five or so major settlements.

And then my enemies settle in the gaps between them and get pissy for me for building cities too close to their borders. I fucking hate Civ AI.
 
Serous said:
Prophet can be best used with Metropolis, as it allows us to gather a lot of information, while also giving us a fortified position through which makes it hard for any of our enemies to target. Furthermore, with Metis, our bureaucracy is only 2 die lower than war.
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I do still recommend getting Bureaucracy 5 and a Charm if you go that route, though. A spammable Excellency is a lot better and doesn't tie up your Crown use for the day (though I suppose you don't have that much to use the Crown on).

Serous said:
As for Celestial allies, their main weakness would be that it is highly unlikely that they learnt Perfect Mirror, which means that they cannot use too much power where people can see their anima. They also would have their own agenda, which we would need to manage. As for Lily, as a confirmed Anathema, depending on her in public is going to turn the Realm against us.
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They would just openly be Solars. It's the only practical solution.

Another factor is that by expanding so much, it leaves our foundation quite weak. Even discounting the fact that we make up a significant fraction of Luseng's military might, the lack of infrastructure will impair vital administrative functions while also making it easy for our enemies to attack and subvert. We can only manage so many things at once, after all.
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Well, there would still be a "mobile core" of extremely powerful troops and Exalts, the main body of your conquering force. A virtual mobile city / fortress of consolidated might, ready to come down on the assembled sovereignties of the North like a hammer through so many melons.
 
Serous said:
Prophet can be best used with Metropolis, as it allows us to gather a lot of information, while also giving us a fortified position through which makes it hard for any of our enemies to target. Furthermore, with Metis, our bureaucracy is only 2 die lower than war.
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The suitably of Metropolis for Prophecy is actually not as great as I was originally anticipating though, as huge chunks of our time will be taken up with Sorcery in this scenario.
 
Thomasfoolery said:
The suitably of Metropolis for Prophecy is actually not as great as I was originally anticipating though, as huge chunks of our time will be taken up with Sorcery in this scenario.
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Sorcery doesn't actually take the whole day like Prophecies do, it's just eight hours a day each day you work on a Working. So you can take a 'break week' to spam Prophecies every now and then. You can't prophesize all the time anyway, since you do still need to rule and be seen as a ruler...
 
Rihaku said:
Sorcery doesn't actually take the whole day like Prophecies do, it's just eight hours a day each day you work on a Working. So you can take a 'break week' to spam Prophecies every now and then. You can't prophesize all the time anyway, since you do still need to rule and be seen as a ruler...
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Alright, that's slightly better, though I still think there are better uses of our time and energy.
 
What benefits would getting Bureaucracy 5 get us? And are there any entry charms that are useful there? Unless you mean that 'a charm' as the spammable excellency, in which case I can see the appeal. Given that High Level Bureaucracy charms were already used against us (hello full Wyld Hunt in mere days) I would think the player base would recognize the power of Bureaucracy charms.

I am somewhat surprised that the Shining Metropolis doesn't attract Dragonblooded though. You'd think that it'd be a choice assignment with the tremendous reputation bonus and a great house backing it. If nothing else I would expect the Shining Metropolis to be an extremely attractive place to live and work for the Dragonblooded of the Realm.

I can see why the Polis is more attractive as it's more defensible, but you'd think the merchant factors, entrepreneurs, and logistically minded would want to come to Luseng and reap the rewards.
 
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