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Emma Barnes, Princess (Worm/Princess the Hopeful Quest)

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[X] Grace
-[X] Presence
[X] Swords


I wouldn't be against picking up tempesta later for more power but I would rather our support network and philosophy be more benign. Swords teaches a very people centric morality that would allow us to break rules and laws whenever we feel it is the best way to help people. It also teaches self reliance and becoming stronger which Emma would latch onto hard.

I would rather be motivated by the passion of Swords than the hate of Storms.

It also feels right for Emma to get drawn to swords. All she needs to get offered a comfort by a champion of Swords in her dreams. In a lot of ways Swords is a mirror of Sophia's beliefs, they both teach you to be strong and flexible in order to stand on your own to feet and to get up and fight back. The difference however lies in with Sophia strength is it's own goal and it to be applied to anyone who suits you and it is its own moral justification for anything you do with it. With Swords strength is a means to make the world a better place and help people.

Sophia taught Emma to become strong to protect herself from those that would harm her then become just like them to prove her position. Swords teaches her to become strong in order to shield others and inspire them to stand on their own to feet.
 
[] Grace
-[] Presence
[] Hearts

The revelation of just how much we'd have to burn pushes me back towards my previous hearts/secondary tempesta plan.
 
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I just want to say that I really love the obvious Knights Radiant influence on the splats write-up.
cyberswordsmen said:
It also feels right for Emma to get drawn to swords. All she needs to get offered a comfort by a champion of Swords in her dreams. In a lot of ways Swords is a mirror of Sophia's beliefs, they both teach you to be strong and flexible in order to stand on your own to feet and to get up and fight back. The difference however lies in with Sophia strength is it's own goal and it to be applied to anyone who suits you and it is its own moral justification for anything you do with it. With Swords strength is a means to make the world a better place and help people.
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That sounds sensible. The write-up of Swords give me that they are for people who wish/dream to have strength as much as they are for people who already have that strength.

Swords is in the lowest position (3 votes) along with Tears, though.

EDIT: BTW, I believe we are now in tie again. 21-21 Storms vs Hearts.
EDIT@: no, wrong count. 23-22 for Hearts over Storms.
 
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Omegahugger said:
The answer to Worm's problems turned out to be cross-multiverse mind control.

None of the current plans contain that possibility, as far as I can tell.
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Frankly, if we want to pursue that answer then we should just join Tears and go Cauldron.

Also, I haven't actually read the ending of worm, but this is referencing Khepri, right? In which case, that statement is wrong. That is answer to a single problem Worm have, namely a golden boy throwing tantrums, and not to everything else that is fucked up in Worm. Not to mention it also isn't answer to the Darkness (quite likely it will the opposite).

The existence of Princess and everything else also may open options that isn't available in canon. Heck, for that matter we cannot even sure that Scion is still the same thing with canon in this Quest.
 
Omegahugger said:
The answer to Worm's problems turned out to be cross-multiverse mind control.

None of the current plans contain that possibility, as far as I can tell.
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The answer to Worm's problems was manipulating the enemy into destroying itself. Worm's failures were rooted in the people's inability to communicate and trust each other. Will Storms really change that? Even if it did, the cure might be worse than the disease.

Hearts is immeasurably better at building trust and stability, something Worm needs desperately.
 
[X] Grace
-[X] Presence
[X] Swords

Gah, this deadlock is stupid. Compromise attempt incoming

Storm supporters:

Swords offers us the same blazing passionate hate of tempesta, with none of the associated chains! The desire to raise an army and burn away the darkness of the city can come from love for those we protect just as easily as spite. It also has the advantage that we don't need to be horribly wounded to gain any benefit from it's practical magic like storms does.

Hearts supporters

Swords offers us the same inspirational power to make the lives of others better that hearts does! It may not be quite as focused on societies, but being a grace is already enough to give us the society builder and team creator aspects. Also, the practical magic of swords gives bonuses to both the social skills needed to make groups and the smarts needed to run them, while Hearts gives us only the former.


I know that many of you may not want to vote for such a longshot action, so if you feel that way, please just indicate that you would be willing to compromise here if enough other people were.

Please people, let us band together to end this insanity!
 
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TheProffesor said:
Lawless vigilante extremism is not the answer to Worm's problems.
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Funny, because canon disagrees.

Of course, the other thing is I am not supporting Storms for any great plan to "fix the problems" or via grand metagaming ideas to fixfic. I'm backing Storms because Emma is in a bad mental place, and the Queen of Storms provides easy answers - ones that she wants to hear. I don't have grand plans to fix the whole setting and in fact am aiming for things to remain street level for a long time.

But that's just where she starts - a path leading her to becoming someone who leads an organisation of vigilantes who attack criminals all over the city. Or - as it might also be called - magical girl Batman. Yes, she'll certainly go set meth labs on fire. And yes, Tempesta is totally okay with beating mundane criminals senseless and leaving them out for the police because that's not mercy - you're beating them up, and then you're throwing them into the American criminal justice system (a long, long way from mercy).

Tempesta isn't okay with sparing Darkened, but the question is 'how many of them' are there? And if so many people are Darkened? If lots of the gang members of Brockton Bay are displaying Umbrae and Calignes? Then things have horribly broken down and how confident do you feel in Emma's capacity to non-violently reform hundreds, maybe thousands of people - all of whom are ticking time bombs turning into monsters on a moral spiral downhill? Especially when her magical senses are telling her that they're wrong wrong wrong.

(And of course, the other thing that Storms is is a vote for internal character conflict. Character conflict is good. It's a narrative hook. It produces drama when she finds she doesn't want to kill someone but her Invocation says they're a monster and she needs to kill them. Does she do it, or does she refuse to and take the pain as punishment to access her Invocation again later? Drama and character development!)
 
Tempesta would probably resonate pretty well with Glory Girl, I just realise.


EarthScorpion said:
And yes, Tempesta is totally okay with beating mundane criminals senseless and leaving them out for the police because that's not mercy - you're beating them up, and then you're throwing them into the American criminal justice system (a long, long way from mercy).
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"Why didn't you kill me?"
"I am not allowed to show mercy."

Not going to happen, I know, but a fun image.
 
[X] Grace
-[X] Presence
[X] Swords

I'm okay with this option. As stated before, I'm personally go for Radiant Queen rather than Twillight ones because I like something more hopeful and Sword philosophy is just as good in that regard.

Speaking about Swords philosophy, it also include phrases such as 'doing what is right regardless of rules', so if you are in for Storms because the concept ES's plan earlier, you can still do the same with Swords and without Tempesta, we would not be pushed to constantly use lethal means (which would only draw ire of everyone else. A generally non-lethal vigilante may be tolerated and still considered a Hero, but once we started killing people, heroes and villains alike will racing to put us in either Birdcage or six feet under, while not killing people means gimping ourselves and make taking it pointless to take tempesta in the first place)

There would be no Redemption arc storyline for us, sure but there's still room for emotional journey storyline. Themed instead about overcoming Emma's self-loathing at her weakness, teaching herself to be Strong, etc, instead of realizing, holy shit, she's a horrible person who's been hurting people when there's a better ways.

As for Heart vs Swords, hmm. Lose a bit on social expertise in exchange for more being more well-rounded. Sounds acceptable for me. As well probably being more focused on personally-related people instead of community in general.

To use earlier example goals:
Aspiration: Investigate my new powers. ==> Easily done under any court, really. Int boost may help?
Aspiration: Spend more time with my family. ==> this is appropriate for Swords.
Dream: Help Taylor Hebert be the superhero she wants to be. ==> Definitely Sword-esque
Dream: Help (Currently unnamed future classmate) avoid joining the ABB. ==> Probably Heart would do this better.
Dream: Free (Currently unnamed future classmate)'s elder sister and said sister's best friends from the Merchants. ==> Swords and Fuoco possibly more useful here.

Omegahugger said:
Tempesta would probably resonate pretty well with Glory Girl, I just realise.
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I think she's more likely Mirror (all vanity)
 
Salbazier said:
Speaking about Swords philosophy, it also include phrases such as 'doing what is right regardless of rules', so if you are in for Storms because the concept ES's plan earlier, you can still do the same with Swords and without Tempesta, we would not be pushed to constantly use lethal means (which would only draw ire of everyone else. A generally non-lethal vigilante may be tolerated and still considered a Hero, but once we started killing people, heroes and villains alike will racing to put us in either Birdcage or six feet under, while not killing people means gimping ourselves and make taking it pointless to take tempesta in the first place)
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As EarthScorpion mentioned, in a setting like Worm leaving people alive is not the same as showing them mercy. We can still be non-lethal if we want, it's passive and patient that will be more problematic.

Salbazier said:
I think she's more likely Mirror (all vanity)
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If I remember her character correctly, Vanity is not that big a part of her. Sure, she is important, but she isn't by definition the most important person in the room.

On the other hand, she is the type to throw dumpsters at unpowered criminals and has no problem breaking through walls to get at those who harm her sister, which speaks to a rather vindictive mindset.
 
EarthScorpion said:
And yes, Tempesta is totally okay with beating mundane criminals senseless and leaving them out for the police because that's not mercy - you're beating them up, and then you're throwing them into the American criminal justice system (a long, long way from mercy).
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Omegahugger said:
As EarthScorpion mentioned, in a setting like Worm leaving people alive is not the same as showing them mercy. We can still be non-lethal if we want
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I'm not sure this aligned with Storms. Sure, it is not mercy, on the other hand, you'll not really be stopping them either those Darkened then (it's fine for average gangbanger). Because you are leaving them still Darkened, into place that likely isn't condusive for redemption (possibly the opposite), and can still possibly contribute to creating more Darkness/Taint, if isolated. What's the point of being vindictive if it's not actually effective?

Now, that's probably isn't helping my own case, since that basically argues for killing all Darkened (that isn't practical to redeem) but hey. that's a source for character conflict you wanted.
 
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Salbazier said:
I'm not sure this aligned with Storms. Sure, it is not mercy, on the other hand, you'll not really be stopping them either those Darkened then (it's fine for average gangbanger). Because you are leaving them still Darkened, into place that likely isn't condusive for redemption (possibly the opposite), and can still possibly contribute to creating more Darkness/Taint, if isolated. What's the point of being vindictive if it's not actually effective?

Now, that's probably isn't helping my own case, since that basically argues for killing all Darkened (that isn't practical to redeem) but hey. that's a source for character conflict you wanted.
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Oh, no, I'm specifically referring to the mundane criminals here and how they can be handed over to the police and how she doesn't just have to go on an unfocussed killing spree.

Once they're Darkened, she can feel the disgusting taint ~writhing~ through them. And considering how the taint system works, a career criminal who's Darkened is on a greased rail down to inhumanity. Beatings, shootings, manslaughter by selling drugs to addicts who OD - it all weakens their grasp on their humanity quickly. And that's even before they start willingly learning Calignes because they're just power, right [1]?

When it comes down to it, even a Radiant princess is going to have to either kill some Darkened, or let them fall to become Darkspawn and then kill them when they're not human - and when they've caused a lot more misery in the process.

Darkened who don't want to reform and who actually rather like all these new powers they're getting are... a challenge. And are on the fast road down to Darkspawn status.

[1] Which is one of the advantages of Storms, incidentally. Cells of the forces of the Seraphic General are much better at getting lots of Sworn than any other Queen apart from maybe Tears, and Sworn are akin to low-ranking parahumans. If you want a better-than-baseline vigilante force Storms is the source to go.
 
EarthScorpion said:
Then things have horribly broken down and how confident do you feel in Emma's capacity to non-violently reform hundreds, maybe thousands of people - all of whom are ticking time bombs turning into monsters on a moral spiral downhill?
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Eh, it's not like Hearts or Swords cannot kill if needed (unless they are her loved ones/she is being rude to them before killing them). They are just don't have that extra push/whisper to do so.

And well, that's also the kind of character conflict you wanted isn't it? As Storms, killing would be what she wanted and it is all proper. But as one of the Radiants, then it is really the hard choice.

EarthScorpion said:
Oh, no, I'm specifically referring to the mundane criminals here and how they can be handed over to the police and how she doesn't just have to go on an unfocussed killing spree.
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That's clearer but I'm not worried over mundane criminals in the first place.

EDIT: To clarify, i derped (again) and missed the 'mundane' word in your post. My 'once we started killing people' comment was referencing the QM's earlier comment about how the Darkened gangmember is necessary to be killed.

EarthScorpion said:
Darkened who don't want to reform and who actually rather like all these new powers they're getting are... a challenge. And are on the fast road down to Darkspawn status.
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Admitedly, considering the superpower culture in Worm that's would likely be more of the standard for the Darkened.
 
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[X] Grace
-[X] Presence
[X] Swords

Earth Bet and Brockton Bay need someone who can UNITE others and get them working together while inspiring both ordinary joes and Capes who think this is the bestthey can do or that they're powerless to change things to get off their asses and stop being apathetic, "extreme lawless vigilantism" isn't the answer since its just fighting the symptoms instead of the problem while also wasting potentially useful bodies for the Endbringers/Scion/S-class threats, its essentially fucking around in the war of the five kings because you want the throne when you know the Others are marching on Westeros.

Besides if people want character conflict Swords should provide plenty if thanks to her current lack of self worth, Emma starts throwing herself into her duties as a princess and letting her normal life fall to bits because her duties as a princess are more important than her normal life or happiness or she starts recklessly throwing herself into dangerous situations to prove to herself that she's not weak or scared any more or that she MUST SAVE EVERYONE like some demented combination of Swords and Mirrors
 
SV Only.


Vote tally:
##### 3.19
[X] Grace (Choose Presence or Manipulation for one Transformed Attribute dot)
No. of votes: 12
wingstrike96, Anasurimbor, Yun, DualFront, Dirk93, LordPanther14, WanderingEye, Fabulous Bob, Jiven, veekie, SometimesMaybe, Dogooderxi

-[X] Presence
No. of votes: 38
wingstrike96, Anasurimbor, Yun, DualFront, Dirk93, LordPanther14, WanderingEye, Fabulous Bob, Jiven, EarthScorpion, notmi, mr_stibbons, Amorous Intent, Scia, Jefepato, Bondo, veekie, BunnyLord, Omegahugger, King Prussia, Broken25, SometimesMaybe, Forestalld, Dogooderxi, Undead-Spaceman, Luigilewis889, FriedIce, massdefect76, Strypgia, Cat, cyberswordsmen, TheProffesor, WyldCard4, racnor, Happerry, mc2rpg, Salbazier, 1986ctcel

[X] Hearts
No. of votes: 14
wingstrike96, Anasurimbor, Yun, DualFront, Dirk93, LordPanther14, WanderingEye, Fabulous Bob, Jiven, veekie, Broken25, SometimesMaybe, Dogooderxi, TheProffesor

[X] Champion
No. of votes: 4
D King Hecht, MrLZRS, Wawv, jean5

-[X] Strength
No. of votes: 4
D King Hecht, AZATHOTHoth, Wawv, jean5

[X] Storms
No. of votes: 22
D King Hecht, Murderhobo of Nod, Wawv, jean5, EarthScorpion, notmi, mr_stibbons, Amorous Intent, Scia, Jefepato, Bondo, BunnyLord, Omegahugger, King Prussia, Forestalld, Undead-Spaceman, FriedIce, massdefect76, Strypgia, Cat, WyldCard4, mc2rpg

[X] Seeker
No. of votes: 2
CatScannerDarkly, Edkose

-[X] Intelligence
No. of votes: 2
CatScannerDarkly, Edkose

[X] Tears
No. of votes: 2
CatScannerDarkly, Edkose

[X] Champion (Choose Strength or Resolve for one Transformed Attribute dot)
No. of votes: 1
AZATHOTHoth

[X]Spades
No. of votes: 1
AZATHOTHoth

-[X] Resolve
No. of votes: 1
MrLZRS

[X] Swords
No. of votes: 7
MrLZRS, Luigilewis889, cyberswordsmen, racnor, Happerry, Salbazier, 1986ctcel

[X] Grace
No. of votes: 25
EarthScorpion, notmi, mr_stibbons, Amorous Intent, Scia, Jefepato, Bondo, BunnyLord, Omegahugger, King Prussia, Broken25, Forestalld, Undead-Spaceman, Luigilewis889, FriedIce, massdefect76, Strypgia, Cat, cyberswordsmen, WyldCard4, racnor, Happerry, mc2rpg, Salbazier, 1986ctcel
 
five more hearts and one storm in QQ. 1 storm and 1 heart more in SB. (Hearts 20, storm 24, swords 7)
 
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Salbazier said:
Hmm, I'm hoping for some vote change from the Storm voter, otherwise there is no point to @racnor's proposal.
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There is no point to it because changing your vote from Storms to Swords won't get you Swords.

It'll get you Hearts.

Therefore, if you want a game experience which could fit into both Swords and Storms, you should vote for Storms, because otherwise Hearts wins. Tactical voting is the sensible thing to do.

(Moreover, it seems that the Swords and Hearts vote seems to be rather less established on roleplaying grounds and rather more on overall ambitions and fixfic ideas - as we can already see, Emma is in a bad mental state. As an in-character thing, she's going to be hearing the call of Storms and it's an interesting story to see if she can pull herself out of it. Not least because Storms does provide meaning to overcome her Self-Loathing and her Depression, even if she's engaging in problem alchemy.

Oh, problem alchemy. "Transmute your problems into some other kind of problem, which you might be able to fix more easily.")
 
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