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Emma Barnes, Princess (Worm/Princess the Hopeful Quest)

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Salbazier said:
Also, @racnor's is speaking of compromise in meta-context, not in-character. You're mischaracterizing every arguments for Swords here.
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I'm pretty sure EarthScorpion was also talking in a meta-context, saying that the choice only was chosen because of said compromise, not because it was fitting in character.

chocolote12 said:
If our cape name isn't Fate we're doing something wrong. :V
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Down that road lies getting blasted by Legend, so I'd rather avoid that.
 
Omegahugger said:
I'm pretty sure EarthScorpion was also talking in a meta-context, saying that the choice only was chosen because of said compromise, not because it was fitting in character.
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I got that is also his argument, but then he extend it to that we should justify going Courtless, as if racnor had any intention to make the compromise thing into something in-character (and despite us already providing in-character justification for Swords)
 
Broken25 said:
Meh, Fate isn't a good example of a storm. She never kills anybody.
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Never even angry for that matter (unless you're endangering yourself). Neither does she ever respond to people hurting her with vengeance.

I hesitate to say she is Swords, but the sentence 'whatever you do, do it out of love' fit her so very much.

As dark magical girl, Tears match her better (in more than one way) than Storms
 
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EarthScorpion said:
What does Swords offer akin to that at a narrative level? Because in your own words, you're basically admitting that you're trying to start immediately even in chargen by putting her on a "better path" - and remember, Swords is 'passion'. So you're declaring straight off that what she resonates with most at that point is "passion" and... I just don't see it. It feels like an external imposition, not a growth from what we know of the character - and what has been provided to us by the GM - at this point.
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I was seeing the choice of court as less a representation of what Emma resonates with at this instant (that's invocations) and more of a way of defining her ideals and what she believes is best for the world.

Right now, Emma IS angry, at least in my opinion, and I would probably go for 1-2 dots in tempesta no matter which court she chose, but that doesn't preclude her believing that, overall, inspiring people to stand up and improve the world and putting people over other concerns are better ways to improve the world than burning evil away at any cost.

As others have already said, the compromise is indeed a meta thing. Swords was actually my original vote though, before I went for storms.
 
I'm not sure how you people get 'Emma is angry', honestly.

I mean that a possible reaction to the kind of things she experience but is it not mandatory and I can see nothing in the OP nor remember bits from canon (If I'm wrong, please give me citations) that indicate so. We are the one who choose how she react here.
 
[X] Grace
-[X] Presence
[X] Storms

Something about starting fucked up, angry, and manipulated into self righteous heavy handed crusade really appeals to me thematically in a crossover between a subversion of superhero and magical girl stories.
 
STORMS FUCK YEAH WHOO!
[X] Storms

Hmm. As for the other one... Champion or Grace, Grace or Champion? Hmm. Given the circumstances, I think I'll go for...
[ ] Champion
-[ ] Resolve

Edit: Nvm, read through the rest of the thread and took note of some of the arguments. Changing:

[X] Grace
-[X] Presence
 
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Salbazier said:
I'm not sure how you people get 'Emma is angry', honestly.

I mean that a possible reaction to the kind of things she experience but is it not mandatory and I can see nothing in the OP nor remember bits from canon (If I'm wrong, please give me citations) that indicate so. We are the one who choose how she react here.
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Perhaps I should have phrased that "I'm chosing to make Emma angry". storms WAS my second choice after swords, remember?
 
Forgot to reply to this:
MJ12 Commando said:
Or, if the QM is like me, they proceed to give you different problems which your tools are completely unsuited to directly solving, like when the players choose to play a modern day spy and then we have a giant robot fight in the middle of Moscow.
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Isn't this undermining your own argument here? That would mean anything we choose would be equally interesting regardless.
 
Salbazier said:
Forgot to reply to this:

Isn't this undermining your own argument here? That would mean anything we choose would be equally interesting regardless.
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People are arguing we should go Hearts because it will let the main character make the world a better place. Whereas ironically it might be easier to do exactly what the Hearts voters want by running Storms, because then the most major challenge is in herself rather than outside. My argument is that if you want to change the world positively, giving yourself powers which make that challenging in and of itself mean you're more likely to be given opportunities to make positive change in the world-the price being that you have to resist the easy benefit of using your powers to just create a short-term fix.
 
EarthScorpion said:
No, not really. Or, at least, some paths require a lot better justification.

And I don't feel the Swords people have provided the justification. The Swords selling point seems to be "come on, guys, it'll totally be like Storms, only without all the moral conflicts and the chance that your powers will go 'do this bad thing' and you might not want to". Even @racnor is trying to sell things on the grounds that it's a "compromise position". That's not a sign of some great attachment to the Queen - and if that's the case, you should be trying to justify going Courtless, because that means you're lost and trying to find your own way and picking a Queen could be a sign of growing and surviving and even maturity.

I have never been anything less than honest about what Storms will offer. Storms will offer challenges to the character that they will need to overcome. It will mean that there is a good chance that Emma's path will involve self-examination and self conflict, and she'll have to make difficult choices. It'll mean she has to be the protagonist, and it's on her shoulders - because she's starting as a dark magical girl with the kind of background which means that in more classic series, she'd be a pretty good recruit for the main team as a defector.

Storms means that she starts tarnished. She starts angry. She starts vulnerable to the easy answers of Storms - but because she starts off with easy answers, she can grow by asking herself hard questions and the hard questions make a thematically cohesive and strong personal arc. Storms invites a game which stays street level for much longer, and that's better because a) street level has a better personal focus and is better suited for Princess, and b) when it comes down to it, the Nobility cannot actually punch at high end Worm levels. Also, c) Worm was narratively stronger at the street level, which helps and makes things easier on the GM.

What does Swords offer akin to that at a narrative level? Because in your own words, you're basically admitting that you're trying to start immediately even in chargen by putting her on a "better path" - and remember, Swords is 'passion'. So you're declaring straight off that what she resonates with most at that point is "passion" and... I just don't see it. It feels like an external imposition, not a growth from what we know of the character - and what has been provided to us by the GM - at this point.
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Actually, in the interest of figuring out how you see Emma beyond the fact that she is Storms, what would you choose for her secondary invocation(s)?
 
[x] Grace
[x] Presence
[x] Storms

I would give a bunch of reasons for this, but they boil down to 'most of the other choices were boring'.
 
racnor said:
Actually, in the interest of figuring out how you see Emma beyond the fact that she is Storms, what would you choose for her secondary invocation(s)?
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I will probably be suggesting that it's a remnant of how she used to be before the trauma - the old, so to speak, rather than the new. Which means it's not very well defined by canon, but I was going to probably suggest Clubs' (on the grounds that I think I recall that Taylor used to be a chatterbox before the bullying, so that sets up a dynamic between them of Emma being the calmer quieter one before) or possibly Spades' (on the grounds that this sets up an internal conflict in her Invocations and also suggests that part of the healing process might be learning to laugh at things again).

Not Swords' though, and not really Diamonds' either. Swords' is "too much of the same", and Diamonds' is "standard quester smart character syndrome".
 
EarthScorpion said:
I will probably be suggesting that it's a remnant of how she used to be before the trauma - the old, so to speak, rather than the new. Which means it's not very well defined by canon, but I was going to probably suggest Clubs' (on the grounds that I think I recall that Taylor used to be a chatterbox before the bullying, so that sets up a dynamic between them of Emma being the calmer quieter one before) or possibly Spades' (on the grounds that this sets up an internal conflict in her Invocations and also suggests that part of the healing process might be learning to laugh at things again).

Not Swords' though, and not really Diamonds' either. Swords' is "too much of the same", and Diamonds' is "standard quester smart character syndrome".
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Taylor was a chatterbox with her best friend Emma but she was still shy (not to the extent she became later) and not socially savvy resulting in Taylor not having any other friends when Emma betrayed her. Emma should still be an extravert social butterfly with the looks and charisma to rule a school.

Clubs seems a bit to naïve for someone who lives in earth bets culture where their heroes punch villains in the face and capes who don't fight are looked down upon by all.

Diamonds just doesn't fit Emma although a princess Tattletale would probably like them.

Spades might be a good fit they are a lot about having fun, laughter and friendship. I could see a spades Grace being a great friend for Taylor and being her rock when her mother died.

I like swords because one of the ways you can regain power for them is protecting someone from a bully and their Graces focus on helping people on an individual level to find a place they belong even social outcastes. It is perfect for redeeming borderline villains, while still fitting what little we know about pre-attack Emma in that she was the primary social support for a socially introverted Taylor and helped her recover from her mothers death. It's view on how to fight evil is also fairly similar to storms but with less acceptance of collateral damage so switching from one to the other over time makes sense.

I personally prefer a Swords Emma that has some dots in Tempesta and get conflict from that rather than a pure Tempesta but making her someone who was originally more swords oriented and is not of Storms due to trauma is also very interesting.
 
EarthScorpion said:
I will probably be suggesting that it's a remnant of how she used to be before the trauma - the old, so to speak, rather than the new. Which means it's not very well defined by canon, but I was going to probably suggest Clubs' (on the grounds that I think I recall that Taylor used to be a chatterbox before the bullying, so that sets up a dynamic between them of Emma being the calmer quieter one before) or possibly Spades' (on the grounds that this sets up an internal conflict in her Invocations and also suggests that part of the healing process might be learning to laugh at things again).

Not Swords' though, and not really Diamonds' either. Swords' is "too much of the same", and Diamonds' is "standard quester smart character syndrome".
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cyberswordsmen said:
Taylor was a chatterbox with her best friend Emma but she was still shy (not to the extent she became later) and not socially savvy resulting in Taylor not having any other friends when Emma betrayed her. Emma should still be an extravert social butterfly with the looks and charisma to rule a school.

Clubs seems a bit to naïve for someone who lives in earth bets culture where their heroes punch villains in the face and capes who don't fight are looked down upon by all.

Diamonds just doesn't fit Emma although a princess Tattletale would probably like them.

Spades might be a good fit they are a lot about having fun, laughter and friendship. I could see a spades Grace being a great friend for Taylor and being her rock when her mother died.

I like swords because one of the ways you can regain power for them is protecting someone from a bully and their Graces focus on helping people on an individual level to find a place they belong even social outcastes. It is perfect for redeeming borderline villains, while still fitting what little we know about pre-attack Emma in that she was the primary social support for a socially introverted Taylor and helped her recover from her mothers death. It's view on how to fight evil is also fairly similar to storms but with less acceptance of collateral damage so switching from one to the other over time makes sense.

I personally prefer a Swords Emma that has some dots in Tempesta and get conflict from that rather than a pure Tempesta but making her someone who was originally more swords oriented and is not of Storms due to trauma is also very interesting.
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Gotta agree with cyberswordsman on clubs. Emma is ambitious, righteous, and now storm powered. Not very harmonius in general.

The whole social butterfly aspect of her character (which is certainly heavily supported by her skills) actually suggests a bit of terra to me.

Tattletale would indeed enjoy diamonds. It rewards her for teaching people things, so she can basically draw power from smugness. I agree that it's not a good fit for Emma though.

Aria is quite an intriguing possibly. It's certainly a stark contrast to tempesta, though not quite as stark as Legno. It would probably be fun, and lightening the atmosphere

And on swords, I agree with ES this time. If we go for storms, then the "fight evil" aspect will be encapsulated by Tempesta, and Legno, Terra, and Aria are all capable of doing stuff with outcasts and the malajusted (legno and terra help people fit in and Aria helps them accept their situation) while having other rolls beyond that. Maybe if Hearts wins, then we'll take swords, but on tempesta it seems ill-fitting.
 
racnor said:
And on swords, I agree with ES this time. If we go for storms, then the "fight evil" aspect will be encapsulated by Tempesta, and Legno, Terra, and Aria are all capable of doing stuff with outcasts and the malajusted (legno and terra help people fit in and Aria helps them accept their situation) while having other rolls beyond that. Maybe if Hearts wins, then we'll take swords, but on tempesta it seems ill-fitting.
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I think we are looking at the issue with different goals and perspective. I'm looking from a purely character viewpoint in what philosophy matches up with their character themes without any regard for actual character optimization. The redundancy of swords with storms is positive in that aspect as it means the philosophies have common ground that can bridge them and makes it easier to hold both simultaneously without an obvious contradiction to Emma at first. It creates a situation where the two invocations can have a sort of dark side/neutral/ light side dynamic with Emma sliding from one side to the other as changes how she values saving people over destroying enemies relative to each other. I wouldn't be surprised if the Queen of Swords and Queen of Storms were rather similar people a long time ago before the kingdoms fell.

From a gameplay perspective it is indeed not the best because the overlap between them creates more blindspots than a more differing invocation would.

Spades works as a good option for both perspectives as it is very different from Tempesta thus providing a different powersource and as Earthscorpion pointed out provides a nice character arc.
 
Diamonds/Mirrors strikes me as Tattletale's starting spread, probably with Diamonds primary and Mirrors secondary. The divination actions, being not just smart but the smartest, not disguising your power, and having a hack that nobody else can really match all strikes me as things pushing for some Specchio.

Tattletale is definitely behind Diamonds. "Through understanding, Triumph." There's definitely a bit of "guiding the river's path" as well in her working behind the scenes and being queenmaker instead of queen. She's not a teacher, but she does love to reveal secrets. Lisa would love Acqua.

As for why I am voting Storms? I'm going with a quote wildbow often uses. Heroes are defined by their weaknesses, and villains by their strengths. Flaws make things more interesting. Emma is not some nice waifu who should be redeemed and forced into a box of Hearts. She doesn't want to work for Hearts. She wants to be strong and cool, a badass bitch. I'm all for falling down the way that is natural to her, taking flaws that Emma wouldn't necessarily see that way.
 
cyberswordsmen said:
I think we are looking at the issue with different goals and perspective. I'm looking from a purely character viewpoint in what philosophy matches up with their character themes without any regard for actual character optimization. The redundancy of swords with storms is positive in that aspect as it means the philosophies have common ground that can bridge them and makes it easier to hold both simultaneously without an obvious contradiction to Emma at first. It creates a situation where the two invocations can have a sort of dark side/neutral/ light side dynamic with Emma sliding from one side to the other as changes how she values saving people over destroying enemies relative to each other. I wouldn't be surprised if the Queen of Swords and Queen of Storms were rather similar people a long time ago before the kingdoms fell.

From a gameplay perspective it is indeed not the best because the overlap between them creates more blindspots than a more differing invocation would.

Spades works as a good option for both perspectives as it is very different from Tempesta thus providing a different powersource and as Earthscorpion pointed out provides a nice character arc.
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I wasn't really thinking from a gameplay perspective either, and in fact it seems like Fuoco synergizes quite well with tempesta with it's inspiration and combat usages, at least to my very inexperienced eye. I just thought that it would be more interesting to have her second theme be Aria or Terra instead of something that overlaps so much.
 
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So here's what the votes look like now:

Storms-31
Hearts-25
Swords-9
Spades-3
Tears-3
Mirrors-1

So far, it seems that SV is focused on Storms with Hearts as the main rival with Swords being attempted as a compromise, QQ likes Hearts and thinks Storms will either backfire or be unfun to play, while SB just wants Spades so they can have their rogue.

Vote will close in 36 hours, so people might want to start thinking about changing their votes now.
 
[X] Hearts

?

I would have picked Mirrors just to wind up a villain, or something (they make great alpha bitch villains who think they're the good guy...like Emma does sometimes) but it has no traction. I just don't really like Storms that much.
 
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