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Disjunction (PMMM/Ignition)

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Alivaril said:
Just having him turn Jade into a magical girl would've been fine.
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Even outside of that, I'm not sure it was really worth it. The learning effect was nice but the next world we went to had a much better body upgrade than our MG transformation anyway, and the grief spiraling thing is really inconvenient.

I mean it'd be more useful here because we can't just leave the plane, but still not really sure of the value.
 
Paradox said:
Our pendant only has Green.
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Black was mentioned in conjunction with the grief seed, which is the main reason I used that color on Gunk and studying is almost always Blue in some way.

edit- besides, just because studying, doesn't make it Unnatural doesn't mean we can't learn more about it, if only to be able to combat it.
 
NemoMarx said:
Even outside of that, I'm not sure it was really worth it. The learning effect was nice but the next world we went to had a much better body upgrade than our MG transformation anyway, and the grief spiraling thing is really inconvenient.

I mean it'd be more useful here because we can't just leave the plane, but still not really sure of the value.
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It depends heavily on what we wish for. Wishes and wish-magic shouldn't be underestimated, even if we do have MtG magic, we aren't a planeswalker and replicating many of the things we're capable of with wish-magic will take a very, very long time. And that's assuming we have access to every color.
 
pressea said:
It depends heavily on what we wish for. Wishes and wish-magic shouldn't be underestimated, even if we do have MtG magic, we aren't a planeswalker and replicating many of the things we're capable of with wish-magic will take a very, very long time. And that's assuming we have access to every color.
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I'm fairly okay with remaining low power. If we don't wish we don't need Seeds with any regularity, so we don't have the same pressure to hunt constantly and can just work to be able to defend against occasionally Witch attacks / Kyubey sending Witches at us to get us to use more spells so he can learn things. Less reward and the pace is a lot slower, but we can extend that to the threat scale as well if we're cautious.

Like, even if we only get basic healing spells, we might be able to sell that to Azura or other Magi who don't have a ready healer, and we wouldn't need payment in grief seeds. Material possessions tend to be less valuable for them but would be really useful for us, yeah?
 
So why is it illegal to use magic to get rich? If it creates actual value that value is real, if it doesn't then they won't actually get rich. Unless literally everything like that has been "magical counterfeiting" rather than "magically create trade goods" which makes no sense.

If I had the ability to create gold and someone told me I couldn't use it to get rich I'd leave piles of it lying around to destabilize the market out of spite because fuck that.

Alivaril said:
1: To be a better singer.

2: For her parents to be happy and not have reasons to hurt her.

3: To help people.

4: To actually have fun.
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Can we wish for Path To Victory? Like, "I wish I knew what to do to get what I want" or something like that?
 
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NemoMarx said:
I'm fairly okay with remaining low power. If we don't wish we don't need Seeds with any regularity, so we don't have the same pressure to hunt constantly and can just work to be able to defend against occasionally Witch attacks / Kyubey sending Witches at us to get us to use more spells so he can learn things. Less reward and the pace is a lot slower, but we can extend that to the threat scale as well if we're cautious.

Like, even if we only get basic healing spells, we might be able to sell that to Azura or other Magi who don't have a ready healer, and we wouldn't need payment in grief seeds. Material possessions tend to be less valuable for them but would be really useful for us, yeah?
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I prefer being low-power, but it's good to consider the positive sides of wishing so you don't get all bitter and stop having fun if it wins.
Random832 said:
So why is it illegal to use magic to get rich?
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It gives you a really crappy power compared to healing, so even if it wasn't illegal you still wouldn't want to do it.
 
Random832 said:
So why is it illegal to use magic to get rich? If it creates actual value that value is real, if it doesn't then they won't actually get rich. Unless literally everything like that has been "magical counterfeiting" rather than "magically create trade goods" which makes no sense.
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Governments are reactionary, and the whole magical girl thing coming to light probably hasn't done anything to change that. You think they're really okay with people outside their control having fights in the streets, property damage, and with Witches everywhere? Governments don't like giving up control to third parties, basically ever, and especially ones who are picked mostly at random (or really based on trauma but that's not really better). Plus the healthcare industry isn't going to be happy about someone eating their lunch, and in the US that has a substantial amount of weight. I'm surprised there aren't more regulations about Magi, and I'm pretty sure it's only because most of them are strong enough that it would be significantly hard to imprison or punish them (and also they'd die if you did that) plus the PR problem of cracking down on young girls. But petty stuff like making sure they can't profit? Totally doable.

pressea said:
I prefer being low-power, but it's good to consider the positive sides of wishing so you don't get all bitter and stop having fun if it wins.
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Fair point, but no worries. I'll be okay with pretty much every outcome here, up to and including us witching out instantly and trying to work with that. I don't see any way it won't be interesting, unless we push the story in a direction Ali doesn't want to write.
 
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I want to wish for a KyuMinion. We could even theoretically accept the scan if we made that wish, because Alivaril said it would take effect before the scan, which might make going "stop, it hurts" actually mean something.
Also, I'm having adorable KyuMinion withdrawal since Noka disappeared.
 
DarkLight140 said:
Your supersystem/system/subsystem thing seems like nonsense to me, no offense. Perhaps I'm merely failing to understand your point properly.

No. If anything, it's the other way around. Blue's position on the color pie includes inaction; it wants to examine or analyze things, not generally change them. Green wants competition and emergent evolution. A blue-dominated world will be largely static but well-understood while a green-dominated one will be in a state of continual change as organisms strive to constantly grow and expand out of their current niches.
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Not what the articles say. Blue is about experimentation and trying to find a better way. Green is about tradition, the way things have been in the past. Blue is future focused and Green is past focused. What's more is that Blue believes that people can choose their own fate. Green hates that idea. To Green, everyone was born into a role they must accept and not deviate from.

Paradox said:
Okay let's go over the facts.
Kyubey discovered an energy that is fueled by emotions.

That energy is harvested when people "Witch out"
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No. Kyuubey makes it clear that they harvest energy from every conversion of one emotion to another. Witching out is just most efficient.

Kyubey turns people's souls into gems.

Which allows them to use their magic more easily
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No. He says nothing of the sort. In fact, this is explicitly disproven by the fact that the girl grants her wish for no corruption cost at the instant of the contract. As such, humans are capable of doing much more advanced magic than Soul Gems allow them to and are capable of doing it at zero cost.

Nowhere does it quantify that magic is a natural part of the system. Emotion peaks and a Witch is born. That is the extent of the system as stated. Magic could be something that Kyubey cobbled onto the system to keep it going by allowing Magical Girls to live longer and to generate even more grief.
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Again, that is completely impossible given what Kyuubey says. He says that the energy can be harvested without making witchouts. This is demonstrated as well by the lack of corruption costs from the wish. The only reason grief accumulates in Soul Gems is because Kyuubey designed them that way. He says as much.

Nowhere does it say that they could use magic safely without Soul Gems.
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They demonstrate they can with wishes.

All It says is that Soul Gems make it more efficient. Perhaps by making it possible to cleanse. Maybe without Soul Gems their magic would be unwieldy and expensive.
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They say nothing of the sort and demonstrate the opposite with wishes. Soul Gems make your magic less powerful and give it a cost when naturally it has no cost at all. We see that.

Removing Soul Gems without first understanding their full part in the system is potentially dangerous. Combustion exists in nature but no one is saying that removing an engine from a car and then letting it happen will make it run better. Just because something is not a natural part of a system doesn't mean that it isn't an integral part of keeping said system safe.
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Except we see from wishes that that isn't true.
 
Sereg said:
No. He says nothing of the sort. In fact, this is explicitly disproven by the fact that the girl grants her wish for no corruption cost at the instant of the contract. As such, humans are capable of doing much more advanced magic than Soul Gems allow them to and are capable of doing it at zero cost.
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Bullshit. If that were true people other than magical girls would use magic.
Sereg said:
They demonstrate they can with wishes.
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the soul gem is created in the same instant the wish is granted, this is not evidence.
Sereg said:
They say nothing of the sort and demonstrate the opposite with wishes. Soul Gems make your magic less powerful and give it a cost when naturally it has no cost at all. We see that.
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See above.
Sereg said:
Except we see from wishes that that isn't true.
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No we fucking don't. The soul gem is a containment vessel. You know what raw energy like, I dunno, a soul, does without a containment vessel? It disperses into nothing and you would die.
Wishes are granted during the transitory stage when the energy is least contained and controlled. There is no evidence that remaining unconstrained would be anything other than fatal.

Now I'm going to bed, so I won't be able to continue the discussion.
 
LostDeviljho said:
Bullshit. If that were true people other than magical girls would use magic.
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People other than Magical Girls can use magic. Even ignoring this setting, Kyuubey says as much. Kyuubey just doesn't give others their ability to as they're trying to maximise efficiency.

the soul gem is created in the same instant the wish is granted, this is not evidence.
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We see that Madoka's wish is granted prior to her Soul Gem being created. Even with Sayaka, the magical glow happens before, Kyuubey pulls her Soul Gem out. Yes it is.

See above.
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Even if you were right about the above, which you're not, as I demonstrated, I'd still be right here as it doesn't change the fact that the wish is the most powerful magic the girl ever performs and it results in zero corruption, proving that more powerful magic can be performed with zero grief cost.

No we fucking don't. The soul gem is a containment vessel. You know what raw energy like, I dunno, a soul, does without a containment vessel? It disperses into nothing and you would die.
Wishes are granted during the transitory stage when the energy is least contained and controlled. There is no evidence that remaining unconstrained would be anything other than fatal.
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You're missing the point. Kyuubey himself says that the Soul Gems are unnecessary and he could leave the souls in their body if he wanted to.
 
Sereg said:
People other than Magical Girls can use magic. Even ignoring this setting, Kyuubey says as much. Kyuubey just doesn't give others their ability to as they're trying to maximise efficienc
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Kyubey does so by giving people soul gems. If it could be done without them, someone should've figured it out by now.

Sereg said:
Even if you were right about the above, which you're not, as I demonstrated, I'd still be right here as it doesn't change the fact that the wish is the most powerful magic the girl ever performs and it results in zero corruption, proving that more powerful magic can be performed with zero grief cost.
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...I'm scratching my head trying to think of how this relates to anything, or what we're even arguing about here.
More reasons not to post while tired...

Sereg said:
You're missing the point. Kyuubey himself says that the Soul Gems are unnecessary and he could leave the souls in their body if he wanted to.
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Entirely possible, my thoughts are like mud right now, but I note that while he could do that, he never said it would be safe to do so.
 
Alivaril said:
Could I get a vote tally, please?
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Vote Tally : Disjunction (PMMM/Ignition) | Page 37 | Sufficient Velocity
##### NetTally 1.7.0

[x] Make a wish.
No. of Votes: 4
Sereg
BunnyLord
LostDeviljho
zeromass

[X] Thank Azura for coming over and ask if she could please leave before your parents find her.
-[X] Tell her that you'd much rather find a way to unlock your mana without needing to become a magical girl.
--[X] You just don't want that unnatural gunk in your soul.
[X] Study your pendant. Kyubey seems to think it creates the same energy as you could. See if you can find it.
[X] Have Kyubey put your pendant back exactly where he found it exactly how he first found it.
No. of Votes: 3
TheForgottenOne
Crimson Doom
veekie

[X] Thank Azura for coming over and ask if she could please leave before your parents find her.
-[X] Tell her that you'd much rather find a way to unlock your mana without needing to become a magical girl. Assure her that you'll definitely help her once you figure out how to use mana.
--[X] You just don't want that unnatural gunk in your soul.
[X] Study your pendant. Kyubey seems to think it creates the same energy as you could. See if you can find and use it.
-[X] Ask Kyubey more about this "mana". Are there other people out there who can use it? What do the difference colors mean?
[X] Have Kyubey put your pendant back exactly where he found it exactly how he first found it.
No. of Votes: 3
Agent Whiskers
Kioras
pressea

[X] Thank Azura for coming over and ask if she could please leave before your parents find her.
-[X] Tell her that you'd much rather find a way to unlock your mana without needing to become a magical girl.
--[X] You just don't want that unnatural gunk in your soul.
[X] Study your pendant. Kyubey seems to think it creates the same energy as you could. See if you can find it.
[X] Have Kyubey put your pendant back exactly where and how he found it.
No. of Votes: 2
Paradox
sainen

[X] Thank Azura for coming over and ask if she could please leave before your parents find her.
-[X] Tell her that you'd much rather find a way to unlock your mana without needing to become a magical girl.
--[X] You just don't want that unnatural gunk in your soul.
[X] Study your pendant. Kyubey seems to think it creates the same energy as you could. See if you can find it.
No. of Votes: 2
AramilOniasha
Shard

[X] Thank Azura for coming over and ask if she could please leave before your parents find her.
-[X] Tell her that you'd much rather find a way to unlock your mana without needing to become a magical girl.
--[X] You just don't want that unnatural gunk in your soul.
No. of Votes: 1
NemoMarx

[X] Thank Azura for coming over and ask if she could please leave before your parents find her.
-[X] Tell her that you'd much rather find a way to unlock your mana without needing to become a magical girl.
--[X] You want to study the unnatural gunk before letting any of it into your soul.
[X] Study your pendant. Kyubey seems to think it creates the same energy as you could. See if you can find it.
[X] Have Kyubey put your pendant back exactly where and how he found it.
No. of Votes: 1
Terenak

[X] Study your pendant. Kyubey seems to think it creates the same energy as you could. See if you can find it.
[X] Ask Kyubey if he could hold onto your pendant for you. while it going missing would make your parents mad, as long as you don't say anything they'd never be able to know it had anything to do with you, and if it really is magic like he says, then it's too valuable to just leave it where your parents could throw it away if you screwed up badly enough.
No. of Votes: 1
Xyzarach

Total No. of Voters: 17

Vote Tally : Disjunction (PMMM/Ignition) | Page 37 | Sufficient Velocity
##### NetTally 1.7.0

[X] Thank Azura for coming over and ask if she could please leave before your parents find her.
No. of Votes: 12
Paradox
Agent Whiskers
AramilOniasha
Crimson Doom
Kioras
NemoMarx
pressea
sainen
Shard
Terenak
TheForgottenOne
veekie

--[X] You just don't want that unnatural gunk in your soul.
No. of Votes: 11
Paradox
Agent Whiskers
AramilOniasha
Crimson Doom
Kioras
NemoMarx
pressea
sainen
Shard
TheForgottenOne
veekie

-[X] Tell her that you'd much rather find a way to unlock your mana without needing to become a magical girl.
No. of Votes: 9
Paradox
AramilOniasha
Crimson Doom
NemoMarx
sainen
Shard
Terenak
TheForgottenOne
veekie

[X] Study your pendant. Kyubey seems to think it creates the same energy as you could. See if you can find it.
No. of Votes: 9
Paradox
AramilOniasha
Crimson Doom
sainen
Shard
Terenak
TheForgottenOne
veekie
Xyzarach

[X] Have Kyubey put your pendant back exactly where he found it exactly how he first found it.
No. of Votes: 6
TheForgottenOne
Agent Whiskers
Crimson Doom
Kioras
pressea
veekie

[x] Make a wish.
No. of Votes: 4
Sereg
BunnyLord
LostDeviljho
zeromass

[X] Have Kyubey put your pendant back exactly where and how he found it.
No. of Votes: 3
Paradox
sainen
Terenak

-[X] Tell her that you'd much rather find a way to unlock your mana without needing to become a magical girl. Assure her that you'll definitely help her once you figure out how to use mana.
No. of Votes: 3
Agent Whiskers
Kioras
pressea

[X] Study your pendant. Kyubey seems to think it creates the same energy as you could. See if you can find and use it.
No. of Votes: 3
Agent Whiskers
Kioras
pressea

-[X] Ask Kyubey more about this "mana". Are there other people out there who can use it? What do the difference colors mean?
No. of Votes: 3
Agent Whiskers
Kioras
pressea

--[X] You want to study the unnatural gunk before letting any of it into your soul.
No. of Votes: 1
Terenak

[X] Ask Kyubey if he could hold onto your pendant for you. while it going missing would make your parents mad, as long as you don't say anything they'd never be able to know it had anything to do with you, and if it really is magic like he says, then it's too valuable to just leave it where your parents could throw it away if you screwed up badly enough.
No. of Votes: 1
Xyzarach

Total No. of Voters: 17
 
[X] Thank Azura for coming over and ask if she could please leave before your parents find her.
-[X] Tell her that you'd much rather find a way to unlock your mana without needing to become a magical girl.
--[X] You just don't want that unnatural gunk in your soul.
 
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1.3: Thank you for coming
  • Threadmarks
    • The following will be capitalized from now on: Sorceresses, Witches, Grief, Soul Gems, and Grief Seeds.

    [X] Thank Azura for coming over and ask if she could please leave before your parents find her.
    -[X] Tell her that you'd much rather find a way to unlock your mana without needing to become a magical girl.
    --[X] You just don't want that unnatural gunk in your soul.


    You remain (mostly) untouched by Azura's attempt at manipulation. You know when to recognize when somebody is intentionally trying to act cute and invoke sympathy. You're still not sure if Grief is the cause of your odd feelings or if it's entirely due to adding it to witches, but you're not certain you want to take the chance.

    "Thank you for coming over, but could you please leave before my parents come back and see you here? I'd love to help you, but I don't want to have that unnatural gunk in my soul. If there's some way I can unlock my mana without needing to become a magical girl, I'll be happy to assist you that way."

    "Nope!"

    "...Pardon?"

    "I'm not going anywhere. Your reasons are stupid."

    Azura converts her Soul Gem back into ring form and sprawls out in front of you.

    "You can use Grief Seeds for partial cleanses, so Grief doesn't really need to get a foothold in your Soul Gem. Meanwhile, while you're afraid of a little bit of gunk, people are dying." Azura snorts. "It's not like it'll matter in the long run. Soul Gems are just a casing for the soul, so once we die, our souls will be freed. Kyubey said you have a serious thing with 'somebody else's problem' going on right now, but this is ridiculous. Witches hunt girls with potential to make sure they never contract, you know."

    You swallow heavily, guilt settling in the bottom of your stomach. You've been assuming that since everyone goes to the afterlife anyway, death here doesn't matter as much. It doesn't sound like Azura shares your opinion. And anyway, you've already been caught in the middle of a Witch attack. Everyone but you died.

    You fight down the nausea resulting from thinking about the slaughter and try to move on.

    "If you don't leave, my father is going to hit me more for inviting you over. Could you please go...?"

    "So? My parents used to hurt me, too. But they were hypocritical and ignored their own failings. So I kept track and hit back!"

    You instantly shy away from that line of thinking. You remember hitting your father exactly once. You never made that mistake a second time.


    [] Try something else to get her to leave.
    -[] Write-in

    [] Ask Azura more questions.
    -[] Write-in

    [] Ignore Azura and study your pendant. Kyubey seems to think it creates the same energy as you could. See if you can find it.

    [] Have Kyubey put your pendant back exactly where he found it exactly how he first found it.

    [] Make a wish.
    (Initiates another round of voting for the specific wish)

    [] Write-in

    Write-ins for "Make a wish" may be done at any time. This is likely the last time it will be included among the base options.

    Warning: in case some of the earlier examples didn't make it obvious, I do use trap options. I'm not a killer GM because screw those guys. I also often don't give the best possible solutions as base ones, thus why Ignition has so many write-ins.
     
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