Fake Videogames created by authors with no understanding of videogames, incorporating features no one actually likes, statistics that don't make any sense, and treat basic concepts like min-maxing as if they're somehow new discoveries.
It is always strange to me when I see that kind of thing and even more so when actual gamers like it. SAO can kind of get away with it, since it is based on novels that were written starting from 2002, which was simply a different era for gaming and you can't blame many of its ideas for being anachronistic. In an era when games like Everquest (which had about half a million users at its peak) and Ragnarok Online were still some of the big names of the genre, it's natural that a writer couldn't possibly have imagined what the MMO landscape would look like more than 20 years later.

Overlord really doesn't have even that excuse, though. It's an absurd game even by the standard of Eastern MMOs, which were (and maybe still are, I don't really keep up with the genre) a very different beast from Western MMOs. It also doesn't really sound much like anything I can recall ever hearing about back in 2010, which is when the manga was first written.

Like, I have absolutely no problem with stories that revolve around video games and video game concepts, but if you're going to do that, shouldn't it at least try to resemble actual games that people actually play? And if they cannot do that due a futuristic setting, then can't they at least come up with something that sounds like it would be actually fun to play? It just seems like a massive research failure.
 
It is always strange to me when I see that kind of thing and even more so when actual gamers like it.

Because it's not selling a game, it's selling an image of a game, a fantasy.

A real game with excessive permakill penalties, incomprehensible menus, and so on is frustrating to play. But in the show, you're never going to encounter that frustration, because you're not actually playing the game, you won't get hit by the penalties. What remains that is this "fake" sense of accomplishment, of overcoming adversity.
They're not creating a game that is fun to play, they're creating a game that is an egoboost to have played, something that makes you cool because you overcame challenge and adversity.

(You can see this attitude online in the people who rage against accesibility or difficulty options, despite the fact that no one forces them to use them).
 
Well, I'm not sure if I would put it in those terms, but I do agree that a big part of is that they're telling a story rather than providing a game for people to play.
 
This kinda makes me want to see a story around Dwarven Fortress and Crusader Kings crossbred to bring you the !FUN! VRMMO experience from hell. That attracts the kind of wierdos that would drain oceans with straws for the fun of it.
 
Well, I'm not sure if I would put it in those terms, but I do agree that a big part of is that they're telling a story rather than providing a game for people to play.
Yeah, that seemed a bit... much. Anyway, I do agree that at least part of it is of course that they're telling a story and in the end, the needs of the story come before any considerations of realism or depicting things like game mechanics accurately. It's just that often enough, they're so very, very far from it that it makes you wonder if the writer has ever played a video game in their entire life. It makes the whole conceit feel kind of pointless, like, I don't know, writing a story about a magical, dragon-slaying sword and then only ever using it to slice bread. If you're going to do that, why even have it in the story at all?

This kinda makes me want to see a story around Dwarven Fortress and Crusader Kings crossbred to bring you the !FUN! VRMMO experience from hell. That attracts the kind of wierdos that would drain oceans with straws for the fun of it.
I have no idea what a story like that could possibly be about, but it would certainly be a unique experience no matter what.
 
I forgot it's name at the time so I didn't include it, but "Bofuri" was what I was thinking of when I listed treating min-maxing as a new discovery. Like no one in the fictional dev studio or supposedly massive playerbase of jrpg fans thought to ask "What happens if ssomeone dumps all of their stat points in one place?" Until some random girl shown to barely know how to use a computer tried it.

And I might as well add "totally 1 of a kind items that are actually one of a kind" (and therefore cease to exist the second a player quits the game, possibly from having their account repeatedly hacked by thieves), and "pain feedback that actually hurts" (best case scenario the game gets taken over by BDSM enjoyers) to the list.

Yes I know I'm using a lot of anime for this but western media thinks video games are the cause of (insert current decade societal issue) and the non-mainstream creators are more interested in Lit-RPGs that I'm sure already got brought up here at least twice because I was one of those times.
 
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I have no idea what a story like that could possibly be about, but it would certainly be a unique experience no matter what.
MerMaxer had always fantasized about the freedom that having a mermaid tail would give. So MerMa was immediately sold on the concept of the enigmatic game Unnamed, where players could become anyone they wanted even if the playerbase was a bit on the hardcore side according to the rumors.

But to MerMaxer's utter dissapointment it that atlantis, the capital of the Merpeople had been reduced to an oasis in the middle of the desert.
Now with only one thing on mind, MerMaxer sets to get revenge for the ocean's dissapearance.
 
MerMaxer had always fantasized about the freedom that having a mermaid tail would give. So MerMa was immediately sold on the concept of the enigmatic game Unnamed, where players could become anyone they wanted even if the playerbase was a bit on the hardcore side according to the rumors.

But to MerMaxer's utter dissapointment it that atlantis, the capital of the Merpeople had been reduced to an oasis in the middle of the desert.
Now with only one thing on mind, MerMaxer sets to get revenge for the ocean's dissapearance.
...I find this story pitch oddly intriguing and I think I would read that. Can a single, determined fish-man drown the desert? Find out in With A Teaspoon, now releasing one new chapter every friday!

(you know, because emptying the ocean. i thought it was funny...)
 
A similar problem is they have the game as a setting, but they want to make the stakes "real" so they add in things like money or death or a real world to make the MC's actions [Important].
The problem being that it's all still set up as a game.
So the game logic comes across as pointless or utterly insane when the consequences actually matter.

Some of the better ones I've seen actually maintain the "games are for fun" part.
A good author can get you immersed into the story in the game, but they also don't have Plot Armor because they can be killed, log out and have a sandwich.
 
So the game logic comes across as pointless or utterly insane when the consequences actually matter.
Having to play by the stupid rules of a game whether you like it or not when there are actual, real lives at stake is part of the appeal of that premise, I think, so I'd be inclined to call that more of a feature than a flaw. "Death game" thriller plots aren't limited to only being about video games, after all, and that's a well-established and popular trope.
 
I wonder how all this interacts with a LitRPG world instead of a game? I can certainly imagine that putting all your stats into one attribute being a risky proposition if an unbalanced strength causes your body to tear itself apart.
 
One of the underlying assumptions I see with LitRPG is that everything is "balanced" and there are no negative consequences.
So someone could dump all their stats in one, they would be perfectly fine, get some huge benefit, and at most they would just be practically useless in society.

You never see a skill or power class that just underperforms compared to other similar powers (Though you might have a power that "everyone knows" is weak and only the MC can make work)

It's particularly annoying when the MC that knows nothing about the system they are working with just assumes they can do anything without consequences.

"I ran the numbers and I figured out I can get maximum damage by only putting points into STR and DEX, no CON."

"Isn't that risky?"

"I'll be too fast and dangerous for anything to damage me."

"No, I was referring to the monsters with a [Poisonous Aura] that instakills anything below a certain threshold of CON."

"...I really wish you had mentioned that 5 seconds ago."

"I told you the way everyone sets up their stats. You were the one who assumed playing a game let you make better decisions in reality."
 
I wonder how all this interacts with a LitRPG world instead of a game? I can certainly imagine that putting all your stats into one attribute being a risky proposition if an unbalanced strength causes your body to tear itself apart.
In my experience, that problem doesn't tend to come up. One of the core concepts of RPGs is that having bigger numbers is only ever better for you and never worse. Dumping all your stat points into strength won't make you any better at taking a hit, but the "required secondary superpowers" for using them offensively are taken to be part of the package.

It would be interesting to see a litRPG where that can actually happen, though. One thing I find not enough stories of that sort do is to really think about what it would actually mean for a real world to run on effectively arbitrary game mechanics that weren't ever meant to apply to real people. However, there's this somewhat obscure fantasy novel trilogy called The Runelords where that can actually happen, if I remember correctly. Get enough strength "endowments" (basically a magical pyramid scheme - you give someone 80% of your strength, so now you're barely strong enough to keep breathing anymore, but the other guy has superpowers in exchange) without enough toughness endowments to balance them out and you can actually tear your muscles right off your bones.
 
I forgot it's name at the time so I didn't include it, but "Bofuri" was what I was thinking of when I listed treating min-maxing as a new discovery. Like no one in the fictional dev studio or supposedly massive playerbase of jrpg fans thought to ask "What happens if ssomeone dumps all of their stat points in one place?" Until some random girl shown to barely know how to use a computer tried it.

And I might as well add "totally 1 of a kind items that are actually one of a kind" (and therefore cease to exist the second a player quits the game, possibly from having their account repeatedly hacked by thieves), and "pain feedback that actually hurts" (best case scenario the game gets taken over by BDSM enjoyers) to the list.

Yes I know I'm using a lot of anime for this but western media thinks video games are the cause of (insert current decade societal issue) and the non-mainstream creators are more interested in Lit-RPGs that I'm sure already got brought up here at least twice because I was one of those times.
Bofuri's thing is a bit more complicated. We see that it's normally stupid to do what she did. She just keeps lucking into secondary items and abilities that make up for it. The twins who put everything into strength for example were doing terrible until they started getting the by-products of her luck.
 
1) SAO, with excessive menues and sub-menues, and sub-sub-sub-menues, all in an mmo launch title for an entirely new console that depending on the novel or anime sold either less than half or less than double what Concord did.
SAO is not a launch title. The NerveGear had existed for a while and the low numbers in getting the game sold is because it is only day 1. If it was a serious game I am sure more copies would have been solved once they saw things working properly. Now it all just a power fantasy for the mad scientist inventor so that went nowhere.

And as for menues it is at least limited to only inventory stuff. Actual combat is based on actual weapon stances which is better than I could say for some other VRMMOs that barely use the VR part. I am aware some real VR games have you pull behind your shoulder to indicate backpack for inventory. But I think that can be explained in universe with the creator wanting such realism that players should be able to scratch their back without opening the inventory.
It's just that often enough, they're so very, very far from it that it makes you wonder if the writer has ever played a video game in their entire life.
SAO's author was a prolific Everquest and Ultima Online player. And those MMOs kind of just was like that.
And I might as well add "totally 1 of a kind items that are actually one of a kind" (and therefore cease to exist the second a player quits the game, possibly from having their account repeatedly hacked by thieves), and "pain feedback that actually hurts" (best case scenario the game gets taken over by BDSM enjoyers) to the list.
It is also at least partially handled by an AI adding stuff without the devs knowledge so it could only ever be an unbalanced mess of a game.
 
The worst part of SAO was that other people could see, and manipulate, your UI.
Like, how dumb is that?
Specifically they could move your hand to make to manipulate the menu. I guess that was kind of hard to patch out if you still want people to be able to touch each other.
 
Wasn't it that they could 'physically' move your hands to manipulate your UI?
Which is still stupid, but probably not something that would have been discovered if people weren't logged in all the time.
Yes, that is dumb, incredibly dumb, the fact that there were menu's at all in a game using what is effectively mind reading machines was stupid in itself, that you had to use your hand to manipulate was stupider, and that somehow the menu reacted to your hands physical position, instead of brain actions, allowing people to manipulate the UI by moving your hand when you were unconscious, was so stupid that there should be somekind of super award for excellence in idiocy for coming up with it.
 
Yes, that is dumb, incredibly dumb, the fact that there were menu's at all in a game using what is effectively mind reading machines was stupid in itself, that you had to use your hand to manipulate was stupider, and that somehow the menu reacted to your hands physical position, instead of brain actions, allowing people to manipulate the UI by moving your hand when you were unconscious, was so stupid that there should be somekind of super award for excellence in idiocy for coming up with it.
Is it? I thought it rather made sense. What's easier: reading the brainwave patterns that correspond to the physical movement of your limbs, or trying to mentally control an interface by basically thinking really hard about moving muscles that you don't actually have? The latter can be learned, we already have research being made in that direction today, but it's not easy and it's not quick. Who would want to play a game that requires months of learning how to use a novel kind of mind-machine interface to command a video game interface with your thoughts first?

I mean, a external helmet that basically hijacks the impulses that would otherwise control your body and feeds you sense data is one thing, but outright reading your mind to let you use menu commands just by thinking about them is quite another.
 
Yes, that is dumb, incredibly dumb, the fact that there were menu's at all in a game using what is effectively mind reading machines was stupid in itself, that you had to use your hand to manipulate was stupider, and that somehow the menu reacted to your hands physical position, instead of brain actions, allowing people to manipulate the UI by moving your hand when you were unconscious, was so stupid that there should be somekind of super award for excellence in idiocy for coming up with it.

To quote myself:
Anything responding to thoughts is a horrible design choice.

A player having the random thought: 'I wonder what would happen if I were suddenly naked' is going to have some really awkward consequences.
Or the menu just simply popping up in the middle of the fight because you wondered how much durability your sword has left.
 
I forgot it's name at the time so I didn't include it, but "Bofuri" was what I was thinking of when I listed treating min-maxing as a new discovery. Like no one in the fictional dev studio or supposedly massive playerbase of jrpg fans thought to ask "What happens if ssomeone dumps all of their stat points in one place?" Until some random girl shown to barely know how to use a computer tried it.

And I might as well add "totally 1 of a kind items that are actually one of a kind" (and therefore cease to exist the second a player quits the game, possibly from having their account repeatedly hacked by thieves), and "pain feedback that actually hurts" (best case scenario the game gets taken over by BDSM enjoyers) to the list.

Yes I know I'm using a lot of anime for this but western media thinks video games are the cause of (insert current decade societal issue) and the non-mainstream creators are more interested in Lit-RPGs that I'm sure already got brought up here at least twice because I was one of those times.

The Bofuri light novels do go into that, but I don't know how much of it was in the anime. Especially since from what I recall, the Bofuri anime has the messageboard chapters flash through each episode in maybe one second of footage, so all the other minmaxing done by other players gets relegated to that one second of screentime.

The protagonist of Bofuri is special partly because she lucks into odd skill interactions, partly because her guild helps cover for her weaknesses, and mostly because she is willing to spend hours on end doing stuff that appear to have little to no apparent gameplay effect.

After the first public event of the game, when the protagonist becomes famous, other players try the same idea of dumping all their stat points into one stat, but they gave up because the disadvantages were too great for someone who just wants to play a game. The twins who join the protagonist's guild also dump all their stats into one place (Strength), and they were on the verge of quitting and rerolling their characters before the protagonist met them and offered to be their pocket tank.

Other members of the guild include a genius puzzle-solver boy and a ridiculously athletic girl, who carry their RL advantages into the game. The "normal" member of the guild is also considered overpowered, because he got his skills from grinding normally, including dying so much the game gave him an achievement skill for it.

This kind of continues with other characters seen in the story. Players who just want to play a game can do so without minmaxing or bothering with skill interactions. Players who explore deep into the game mechanics can become just as overpowered as the protagonist, proportional to the effort they put in. Content for the game appears to be easily and trivially produced, since various characters (including unnamed side ones) have stumbled upon the one-of-a-kind items and dungeons themselves, and posted about it on the messageboard.

And in possibly the most realistic part of the story, a lot of this is unintended behaviour, and the devs are just as desperately trying to fix and balance the game while it's going on, hampered by their desire not to be seen as targeting the protagonist's exploits specifically. Part of the reason the devs let the protagonist be is she's good for marketing the game.
 
It is always strange to me when I see that kind of thing and even more so when actual gamers like it. SAO can kind of get away with it, since it is based on novels that were written starting from 2002, which was simply a different era for gaming and you can't blame many of its ideas for being anachronistic. In an era when games like Everquest (which had about half a million users at its peak) and Ragnarok Online were still some of the big names of the genre, it's natural that a writer couldn't possibly have imagined what the MMO landscape would look like more than 20 years later.

SAO's initial 10,000 players can also be explained in universe as a 'soft opening' since it was the first fully open world full sensory VRMMO.

So basically a staged launch -

Beta Test -

Soft Opening with a single Game World Instance -

General Launch with multiple concurrent mirrors -

As for the menus within menus, it's weird because SAO contains both a lot of anachronisms from its era, but also speculates on some fairly modern game design features.
 
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