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Cliches you can't stand

Axslashel said:
Unwanted harem shows are also very common and in no way disqualifies it from being a harem show.
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I would disagree on the basis that a harem is by definition made up of people who you actually want to be around, if only to sleep with them, and not of random people who force their presence on you when you just want them to go away. I guess that's a bit subjective, though.
 
Axslashel said:
Unwanted harem shows are also very common and in no way disqualifies it from being a harem show. Neither does one love interest clearly being the only possible winner and all other options being doomed stop it from being one.
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I hesitate to call Ranma 1/2 a "harem show", because the "multiple potential love interests" angle is kind of a minor point, compared to "martial arts challengers" making up the vast majority of story arcs.

The unwanted pursuers are given the "fiancee" or "pursuit of love" motivation entirely as a handwave excuse for why they're hanging around as recurring characters. This includes the "rival" love interests like Mousse or Ryouga, who start as "I am interested in one of Ramna's fiancees", but quickly become "I want to challenge Ranma because martial arts pride".

And given Ranma 1/2's core plot device, sometimes these roles overlap, as with Tatewaki Kunou. Who would also be considered one of Ranma's "harem" by technicality.
 
Axslashel said:
You sure? There are quite a few where that is one of the main reasons it keeps spinning its wheels and the protagonist never makes a final decision. Because actually getting with one of them means the others will be heartbroken. A lot of harem shows are very much more of a competition than a polycule.
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It's a pity that Western online authors forget about this. We have a lot of love triangles, so why do we create an orgy instead of making a pentagon?
 
Arden said:
I would disagree on the basis that a harem is by definition made up of people who you actually want to be around, if only to sleep with them, and not of random people who force their presence on you when you just want them to go away. I guess that's a bit subjective, though.
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Historically harems were often political coalitions.
"Include my daughter in your harem and I will support you as Emperor."

It was entirely possible for a harem to include people that didn't want to be there, didn't like each other, and sometimes were actually homosexual.

One of the only harem-fics I actually liked was one where the "harem" started as a series of misunderstandings, became a running gag, turned into a calculated political maneuver, then became a problem as factions started forming.
At no point was it depicted as "There's just so much love here, we have to form a harem!"
 
Blaflaix said:
Historically harems were often political coalitions.
"Include my daughter in your harem and I will support you as Emperor."

It was entirely possible for a harem to include people that didn't want to be there, didn't like each other, and sometimes were actually homosexual.
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I'm like 99% sure that this is actually way more based in "historical fiction" than actual "history," because from the perspective of actual, historical inheritance law, someone would be getting scammed in that deal. I'm just not quite sure who. One way or the other someone is getting fooled into trading something for basically nothing of actual value to either side, because harem concubines basically had no legal standing and were closer to sex slaves (often literally purchased for money) than to actual, legal wives whose children would be in the line of succession. So neither Pimp Daddy nor Emperor Wannabe would actually get anything out of it besides another sex toy, because her children would be able to inherit neither the throne nor their grandfather's properties and titles.
 
Arden said:
I'm like 99% sure that this is actually way more based in "historical fiction" than actual "history," because from the perspective of actual, historical inheritance law, someone would be getting scammed in that deal. I'm just not quite sure who. One way or the other someone is getting fooled into trading something for basically nothing of actual value to either side, because harem concubines basically had no legal standing and were closer to sex slaves (often literally purchased for money) than to actual, legal wives whose children would be in the line of succession. So neither Pimp Daddy nor Emperor Wannabe would actually get anything out of it besides another sex toy, because her children would be able to inherit neither the throne nor their grandfather's properties and titles.
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Which actual historical inheritance law? For which harem?

If you only count slave concubines as part of the harem, you're definitely not using a fully general understanding of the word.
 
I believe some empires did have some possibility for a concubine's child to be an heir (Toyotomi Hideyoshi's son is one example), though it may also get confused with, say, Persian emperor's having many wives (and therefore at least one new emperor having dozens of siblings murdered upon his accession).
 
bluntblade said:
I believe some empires did have some possibility for a concubine's child to be an heir (Toyotomi Hideyoshi's son is one example), though it may also get confused with, say, Persian emperor's having many wives (and therefore at least one new emperor having dozens of siblings murdered upon his accession).
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It appears a number of Umayyad and Abbasid caliphs were the sons of slave-concubines.
 
One example I thought was well done was in The Malloreon cycle. The Tamul Emperor rules an Empire made up of nine kingdoms, and thus must have a wife from each. The wives act essentially as lobbyists for their respective kingdoms and have their own mini-courts full of nobles form their homelands. (He is expected to visit them all on the night of his coronation, which apparently killed one emperor who was particularly old when he took the throne)
 
bluntblade said:
I believe some empires did have some possibility for a concubine's child to be an heir (Toyotomi Hideyoshi's son is one example), though it may also get confused with, say, Persian emperor's having many wives (and therefore at least one new emperor having dozens of siblings murdered upon his accession).
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Yes, but that happened a lot more rarely than most people probably think and typically either involved some kind of coup or the legal wives either having no children or all of them dying young. It's not the kind of gamble anyon would've made with a real expectation of getting some kind of actual return on it.
 
Arden said:
Yes, but that happened a lot more rarely than most people probably think and typically either involved some kind of coup or the legal wives either having no children or all of them dying young. It's not the kind of gamble anyon would've made with a real expectation of getting some kind of actual return on it.
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Again, depends on context - almost all Abbasid caliphs were sons of concubines starting from 813 and going on for over 400 years. Of course, predicting which concubine would become the next caliph's mother far in advance might have been a fool's game. And I'm not aware of people intentionally sending their daughters to be slave concubines in hopes of gaining power by it.

...But, again, harem does not only include concubines.
 
Arawn_Emrys said:
One example I thought was well done was in The Malloreon cycle. The Tamul Emperor rules an Empire made up of nine kingdoms, and thus must have a wife from each. The wives act essentially as lobbyists for their respective kingdoms and have their own mini-courts full of nobles form their homelands. (He is expected to visit them all on the night of his coronation, which apparently killed one emperor who was particularly old when he took the throne)
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Probably meant the Tamuli series? The Mallorean is the sequel series to the Belgariad, and the Emperor there, Zakath, had no interest in letting anyone close to him, political marriage or otherwise.

(Could possibly also mean the Elenium, but given your mention of the Tamul Emperor, I assume it's the Tamuli.)
 
Adloquium said:
Probably meant the Tamuli series? The Mallorean is the sequel series to the Belgariad, and the Emperor there, Zakath, had no interest in letting anyone close to him, political marriage or otherwise.

(Could possibly also mean the Elenium, but given your mention of the Tamul Emperor, I assume it's the Tamuli.)
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Yes, that's probably the one. Not that I can blame him for mixing them up. Eddings' novels really start blending together once you notice they're really all the same story with different coats of paint.
 
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