The Ancient Egyptians were Black, we have their bodies to prove it. The Romans conquered Egypt. There were Black Romans.
It's also important to remember that Rome consumed a good deal of Europe and moved entire ethnic groups around within it.

So it goes to reason that there were Black sub-Romans in Europe. Perhaps gone by 1400s Bohemia, but not never-existed at all.
 
We're taking about magical worlds with dragons and shit.
Actually, at that point in the debate we were talking about Kingdoms Come Delieverance, which is supposed depict actual medieval 15th century Bohemia in Europe.

As for magic worlds, eh, it depends? I'm not a fan of "magic, therefore everything goes". You still need to have reasoning, a chain of causality. However, as it is a completely made up world, you are of course free from constraints of how things went historically. You certainly can plant a black nation somewhere in the middle of not!Europe then or whatever you want to have black characters.

...but also, you don't need to. Once again, concerns about representation are valid, but they do not work the same way everywhere in the world.

No fucking shit.
There were still traders, diplomats, pilgrims, random mercenaries, slaves, criminals on the run.
And all of those would be European as well. White hence. Most trade was done by those who imported the wares, diplomats only graced the courts anyway, and pilgrimages were not, typically, trans-continental - except for the Holy Land and Rome, but certainly not trans-continental to some pilgrimage site in Bohemia. And people on the run wouldn't really get an entire continent away, either. Really, I suspect you underestimate just how local the typical life in medieval Europe was.

The protagonist is a son of a blacksmith who learns swordfighting, archery, riding, alchemy (including goddamn healing potions) and makes friends with not one, but two local noble families while fighting bandits, solving crimes (and possibly doing crimes).
At this point it feels disingenuous at best to argue that black people in Bohemia is somehow over the top.
The former is part of the story. The latter is not. That is to say, at this point you are not arguing "but there were black people around!" you are saying "the game has to bend things around so that there definitely will be black people in it".
 
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I propose to change the topic - for example, to discuss cases when people who cannot sing were put in a musical.
 
In that case, I'd like to pose a question: If - hypothetically - an African film studio made a fantasy movie in a setting heavily inspired by African history, and the movie blew up and became this huge international success with massive box office sales and a multimedia property being developed around it, how would you react if someone on the internet asked, "Where are the white people in this film? Why doesn't this film have diversity for white people?" Chances are - and I apologize for assuming - that you'd be pretty annoyed, yes? You'd think it doesn't always have to be about white people, yes? That other cultures - especially those that have been colonized and whose voices have been suppressed for centuries - should have a chance to tell their stories on their own terms, yes?

Does this hypothetical apply to the general case, or is it specific to Africa?

To clarify, I want to know if it would change matters if the criticism of "where is the diversity" was applied to Crazy Rich Asians.
 
The Ancient Egyptians were Black, we have their bodies to prove it. The Romans conquered Egypt.
This is a very difficult question - it depends exactly on where you draw the border. Yes, and the Egyptian population was not homogeneous - the inhabitants of the delta were clearly lighter than the inhabitants of Upper Egypt. Scientists generally agree with the statement that modern Egyptians are outwardly similar to the ancient inhabitants of Egypt. At the present time, the population of Egypt is also racially heterogeneous and in the south exhibits more pronounced African features.
 
What I hate is when a human "Primal instincts/Id/Lizard brain, of humans is the sadistic,rape,violence part of you. Most peoples triune brain part AKA the closest thing to "the Id" people actually have is their for auto-piliot and Fight or Flight(or Freeze) it's much more likely to run away from obvious danger like lizards do and just find some food and shelter then it is to randomly kill people
 
What I hate is when a human "Primal instincts/Id/Lizard brain, of humans is the sadistic,rape,violence part of you. Most peoples triune brain part AKA the closest thing to "the Id" people actually have is their for auto-piliot and Fight or Flight(or Freeze) it's much more likely to run away from obvious danger like lizards do and just find some food and shelter then it is to randomly kill people

It's just misanthropy, tbh. You see it in stuff like the Purge.
 
It's just misanthropy, tbh. You see it in stuff like the Purge.
In the Purge sequels at-least the Government are the ones doing lots of the purging so they don't have to pay welfare for poor people and heavily encouraging a certain type of person to "purge" the movies show most people do not do the Blood orgy thing but bunker down with security systems.

but yeah the "LIZARD BRAIN" thing is bunk nerouecience anyway. And even when people thought it was valid the Lizard brain wasn't the cause of most violence. But people want to bundle all their icky feelings into one package to feel better about themselves. Like Lizards aren't fighting each other 247
 
The Ancient Egyptians were Black, we have their bodies to prove it. The Romans conquered Egypt.
Multiple peoples conquered Egypt. And they were apparently fairly diverse in skin tone. So it depends on what you mean by both "ancient" and "black". The Egypt of the Roman era wasn't the Egypt of the Old Kingdom, but both were "ancient Egypt"*. It's a controversial issue, but a simple "ancient Egyptians were black" is considered false by modern scholars.

Really, I tend to regard the whole issue as a matter of Americans and Europeans trying to impose their own concept of "race" on an entirely different culture. If some time traveler asked them what they were, I expect they'd have just answered "We're Egyptian".


* Really, a lot of historical discussion suffers from a sort of time compression. Modern people tend to end up compressing vast swathes of history into shorthand like "ancient Egypt" or "the Roman empire" because there's just so much of it, and it's so far away in time. But doing that to something that lasted literally thousands of years is a huge oversimplification at best.
 
Audrey Hepburn as Eliza Doolittle in My Fair Lady comes to mind, although the vocalist they dubbed in for Eliza's musical numbers was pretty good, as was Hepburn's own acting.
Just here it is normal - in old musical pictures the actors could be completely or partially re-voiced. True, in that case Mrs. Hepburn sang one song after all ... and it was not the best example (she had a very narrow range).
 
What does all that mean the Nazis invading Poland means the Polish are themselves oppressed their for Polish Media shouldn't be criticized for having pure white media? Like people criticize "feminist" media if they don't include people that aren't white. And using fantasy races as allegories for human races has been routinely criticized. Why can't we have Jewish or Roma humans or atleast Roma Coded humans in the Witcher verse? Why is having people of different phenotypes means it can't be a Polish game? As history shows a ethnic homogenous Monoculture is clearly not essential to "Polishness"

Okay, a few things. First: Race isn't real.

"White-ness" isn't real. It's "real" in the sense that people believe it exists, and that belief guides their very real actions, but "race" was a concept that was basically invented, codified, and popularized by proponents of scientific racism, eugenics, and ethno-supremacy, a deeply dumbed-down version of ethnic groups (AKA ethnies). Using terms like "white" and "black" and "brown" and "Asian" in modern common parlance is useful up to a point. It's useful when you want to use the terms to talk about how racists see the world and different people. But quickly becomes useless when you realize that "Asians" include the dozens of ethnic groups in China and the Yamato Japanese and the Ryukyuan of Okinawa and ethnic Koreans and the different Austronesian Pacific Islander peoples. It quickly becomes useless when you realize that "brown" people is used to lump a mind-boggling amount of geographic regions together, including Central America, South America, the Middle East, and South Asia. It quickly becomes useless when you realize that people from the Indian subcontinent are both "Asian" and "brown". Did you know that through much of the 19th and early 20th century, ethnic Germans and Irish people in America were not seen as white? Did you know that Jews were either "white" or "Asiatic" depending on how racist the U.S. government was feeling during the same period?

Clearly, even if "white-ness" is real - and it's not - not all "white" experiences were the same.

Describing Polish media as "pure white" is incredibly problematic because the experiences of the Polish people - the Polish nation - over the last two and a half centuries have been very different from "white" peoples who have enjoyed sociopolitical and institutional privilege in Europe and America. The Polish people - like the people of Yugoslavia, as @Cetashwayo mentioned - were victims of colonization (in one form or another) for centuries. Because the problem isn't about "whiteness", which isn't real; the problem is institutional bigotry, who does and doesn't get a voice, whose stories have been told and whose stories have been suppressed. Again, would you criticize a Rwandan TV show starring an all-"black" cast as having a "pure black media"? If you say "no, because Rwanda was a victim of white supremacy"...well, guess what? Poland was too. And it turns out trying to describe who has been the oppressor and who has been the oppressed with terms like "white" or "black" or "brown" or "Asian" means anything resembling consistency falls apart very quickly.

Again, are Jews white or Asiatic? Are Indians brown or Asian? Are Germans and Irish people not white?

But okay, let's say that you believe that you would criticize a hypothetical Rwandan TV show featuring an all-"black" cast as not being diverse enough. You want all media to be diverse. You want the media in the U.S. to have more brown representation, you want the media in Poland to have more black representation, you want anime to have more depictions of the Roma in Japan, etc. That's not a bad endgoal to hope for, I think. But context kind of matters. So, uh...

Second: Context matters.

I'm actually really glad that @Adloquium asked me the following question:

Does this hypothetical apply to the general case, or is it specific to Africa?

To clarify, I want to know if it would change matters if the criticism of "where is the diversity" was applied to Crazy Rich Asians.

Because I think this will help round out my answer.

No, I didn't think my example would be specific to Africa. I was thinking of peoples and nations whose voices, whose ability to self-express and self-determine were suppressed. This includes not only different countries across the world that have been victims of colonialism, but also ethnic minorities who have experienced subjugation in their own societies.

The case of Crazy Rich Asians is interesting, though. The film, at least, was criticized for the erasure of ethnic Indians and ethnic Malays, who make up 13.4% and 9% of the population according to the 2018 census. Diversity in representation in a specific media work is not an inherent net good in a vacuum, but context is important: Singapore is a majority ethnic Chinese state where ethnic Chinese majority enjoys sociocultural advantages, where there is racism against the ethnically Indian and Malay minorities. In this vein, the lack of inclusion of ethnically Indian and Malay characters can indeed feel like whitewashing.

I do feel, though, that a story can't be about everything under the sun. Kevin Kwan, the author of the original novel from which the film was adapted, is a Chinese-American born in Singapore, who I think was actually writing about the complex relationships between the different demographics of ethnic Chinese people: Between the rich and the poor, between old money and new money, between men and women, between the older generation and their children, between the Chinese diaspora and Chinese from the old country. (Disclaimer: I have not read the novel, only its plot synopsis.) It's not that I don't think the novel or the film couldn't have used ethnically Indian or Malay people, but I think it was obviously very much a story about ethnically Chinese people, and I think part of the reason the story starring an Chinese-American protagonist became popular was because Chinese-Americans - most of whom do not have families that come from Singapore - see shades of their own interactions with their first-generation immigrant grand/parents or their extended family back in Asia. I appreciate that Kwan maybe did not feel that he was qualified to write about the complexities of the Indian/Malay diaspora experience, and elected to stay in his own lane and let someone else more qualified write such stories.

So to come back to @Konradleijon (and I do hope you're actually reading all this, I have been writing something like two thousand words in my replies to you because I hope I can help inform you on stuff that you may not have known, not because I have nothing better to do)...

Diversity is complicated. People push for more diverse media representation not because we think the citizens of the People's Republic of China or the Republic of Korea need to be represented in American media, but because we think Asian-Americans are underrepresented in media, that they're marginalized socially and politically, and that their voices have been silenced for decades, if not longer. When the Oscars are being slammed for being "too white", it's not because we think that people from the Republic of the Congo or Federal Republic of Nigeria aren't represented enough in Hollywood, but because Americans live in a country where African-Americans have been so systemically otherized, the police are shooting them in the streets. It doesn't mean that we can't call these groups out when they're being racist. But diversity means these people who have been oppressed, whose voices have been silenced for so long, get to tell their own stories without someone asking why they aren't also telling someone else's stories. These can be formerly colonized countries such as Algeria, or an entire population still living under occupation like Palestinians, or a demographic group having previously been enslaved and are now being discriminated against like African-Americans...

...or, in this case, Poland.
 
I've got to say I'm super weirded out by all the discussion around The Witcher having no black characters, as in zero at all. I've only played about three hours of the first game, but the first major villain you encounter is 'black'? (In the sense that he looks like he could have origins from anywhere from southern Europe to north Africa to the Iran-Pakistan area of central Asia to any of a number of/combination of ethnicities in the Americas).

Of course, this then draws into the more important questions around 'what is representation?', 'what is good representation?', and 'is bad representation better than no representation?', but there's definitely at least one 'black' character in The Witcher games!

I do think that the Netflix series handles it better in terms of visual diversity for the cast; you've got a variety of ethnicities on display in the actors, though no south-east Asian actors as far as I remember. It doesn't however, map to real world diversity; the fact that Yennefer's actor is of Indian/English descent doesn't impact the character of Yennefer at all. This is good in one respect, because it means that the ethnicity of the actor doesn't matter to the role, just the skills of the actor, but it can also be seen as robbing people of genuine representation by not including the real-world impact of things.

However, as mentioned before, not every piece of fiction has to have every piece of representation. There's only so much space, after all, and while you can include plenty of representation in offhanded comments and background characters, you're never going to be able to please everyone. If you focus on the black American experience, you can alienate e.g. black Africans or Asian-Americans. Intersectionality is great and amazing, but fiction only has so many words and/or so many minutes or so many bytes of space, so sacrifices always have to be made. (They should not always be made of the exact same thing every time, which is the main issue).

For my tax:

If I have to experience one more fucking superhero story that re-treads the tedium of normal teenage life I am going to scream. (Bought to you by Invincible)

Give me something that isn't 'boring as fuck teenage boy dates interesting teenage girl but both of them are total fucks to each other and it all goes down in overdramatic flames'. Give me a caring and intimate relationship that just slowly resolved into a close friendship! Give me queer romances! Give me someone who makes the executive, deliberate decision to not get into a relationship while they're busy putting their life on the line every day!

Anything but yet another fucking Peter Parker/Mary Jane.
 
Honestly they've got a good back and forth as friends, but I never felt like they had much romantic chemistry. The first time they kissed I was kinda confused because it was framed like a big payoff but to me it hadn't felt built up.
 
Not the worse but when it seems most people in fictional world with multiple gods pick a god and almost exclusively worship them. That's not how Polytheism works. You pretty much worshiped most gods so they don't fuck with you even so called "Evil" ones. And if you wanted help/protecting you'll ask the god of that for help. See if your going on a Long boat you'll pray to Poseidon, even if your normally a Black smith.
 
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Sorry forgot Hinduism was a thing changed it to present tense.

but Hindus have festivals where they worship different gods right? Even if some gods are part of other gods? But their different aspects. And where one god ends and another begins is hazy. Shinto worships different Gods/Spirts. Where did fantasy writers get that idea from. Most gods weren't jelious if people pray to a different-one
 
I'm not a Hindu so I cannot and will not speak for them. Of what limited knowledge I have of the religion they do have holidays dedicated to different deities, but so do most polytheist religions which could loosely be considered 'organized'. Nor am I Shinto, and will not speak for them either, their holidays are spread throughout the year alongside civil holidays if I'm not misremembering things, do not take this as authoritative.

I don't know where the idea of Only One God At A Time came from, myself and I find it to be odd.
 
Might be a case of creator provincialism.
Christians, Jews and Muslims all worship one god, so authors from those faiths are likely to bring that idea to their works.
 
Not the worse but when it seems most people in fictional world with multiple gods pick a god and almost exclusively worship them. That's not how Polytheism works. You pretty much worshiped most gods so they don't fuck with you even so called "Evil" ones. And if you wanted help/protecting you'll ask the god of that for help. See if your going on a Long boat you'll pray to Poseidon, even if your normally a Black smith.
There is a word for that in religious studies; it's called henotheism: The worship of a single god while acknowledging others. I.e., unlike monotheism you don't have a claim of exclusive truth, that only that one god exists, but you worship only that one god. You also have Monolatry, basically the enforced worship of a single god while not denying the existence of other gods.

So, this is actually a thing IRL.

In truth, you can pretty much see this as a spectrum of behaviour: You can have "pure" polytheism, with people praying to whatever god is appropriate, via people picking a personal (or tribal, or city...) patron god, via people mostly just worshipping their personal (or tribal...) patron gods but still paying the necessary respects to other gods, to henotheism, to monolatry and, depending on if you believe that was the source of monotheism, to then monotheism. But the point is, all those behaviours have at various times and places existed IRL.

As well, "religion as damage mitigation", basically, as a protection from angry gods more so than anything else, is a very Greco-Roman conception that is not necessarily universal to all polytheistic faiths.
 
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A lot of recent Chinese media is actually surprisingly pretty big on depicting cooperation as well, even with the U.S. The film adaptation of Liu Cixin's The Wandering Earth basically had zero political or cultural posturing beyond basically all the important characters being Chinese. His Remembrance of Earth's Past book series similarly just kind of assumes that humanity comes together to counter a great threat. Helios - a 2015 action-suspense film co-produced by mainland China and Hong Kong - was so unabashedly pro-CPC, the only character to openly question a Party bureaucrat's erosion of Hong Kong's autonomy ends up actually secretly being the ruthless terrorist mastermind all along; but even with that context, the Party's objective in Hong Kong was to prove that China was a capable partner in counterterrorism so they could have a working cooperative relationship with the U.S. The juxtaposition is actually kind of funny.
From what I've seen, the big thing with this whole Communist VS Capitalist divide is that the former didn't see the latter as "literally the devil" or whatever, like the US tended and still tends to see communist states as. They saw/see capitalists as regressive, degenerate, a thing of the past, but not inherently evil, at least not most of the time.
 
In classical paganism, the gods are not chosen - you worship the gods who patronize your community, or the gods associated with your activities (remember that in most cases you cannot choose a profession).
For the most part, that is correct, and most forms of Henotheism developed from worship of tribal gods. There is the theory, for example, that in the beginning the Israelites were just another Canaanite/Phoenician tribe and their god hence just their own tribal Baal, like the Baal of Sidon or the Baal of Tyre. It is conceivable that the ancient Israelites developed a henotheistic position out of this, which then was further developed into monotheism by the nation's intellectual elite while in exile in Babylon.

However, Egypt went through a phase of monolatry because a pharaoh did pick a personal god, and in the Roman Empire you would absolutely see a "competition" between different gods, with people personally deciding whom to worship. And not just with fully worked out belief systems like Christianity or neoplatonism; even just single gods had followers wide and far. For example, during Octavian's time, Isis was probably the most popular deity of the empire.

And in general, the ancient religions priced orthopraxy, not orthodoxy. Even in "classical" polytheism, as long as you do your rituals to the tribal/city/guild/etc patron god, nobody cares if you then, in private also pray to another god. Well, by and large... "praying to strange and foreign gods" of course was a rhetoric attack on public figures, and in times of societal stress could have consequences. But, you know, in general. We are trying to summarize 6,000 years of history here after all, heh.

But that is why I stressed that those things were always a spectrum of behaviour. Over long enough spans of history, you could find all those different forms of worship.
 
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