The correct way to fry an egg

  • Sunny side up

    Votes: 16 64.0%
  • Sunny side down

    Votes: 9 36.0%

  • Total voters
    25
  • Poll closed .
Soul Science~

Not too sure what to focus on as heavily here. Probably reaching souls inside the Gems? We mostly need to hack our way to getting rid of Grief in the short term. Poking at Feathers and Grief Seeds could also help with that of course.

We only would need the bare basics of space detection I would think? We know there are agents maybe using Ceph tech down here though, being able to track them and run them off, capture them, and/or kill them might be the best spent time of that section.
[Clarisse][] Focus on developing your own powers through dance
*Sees text is in pink* Worry.jpg
 
*Sees text is in pink* Worry.jpg
Pink has shown up in voting options related to the ribbon before, as it does above. It's also the color used for Sakura-things in general and possibly in vote blocks? much like the purple options are, as far as I can tell, Tomoyo-as-narrator-approved options.

My guess is that it's either representative of Sakura-influence, or Gretchen-influence. I don't think it's any more sinister than the usual purple options.

EDIT: Definitely precedent for Sakura injecting her own thoughts into a vote-block in pink
> Kyouko has offered you her love
>> yes! please, treat it kindly, Clarisse

[ ][Kyouko] Decision: Tell Kyouko you love her too, but that she'll need to make up her mind
[x][Kyouko] Patience: Tell Kyouko you love her too, and you can be patient with her while she figures out how to do what's right
 
Last edited:
*Sees text is in pink* Worry.jpg
Look, it could be worse, I could have used an invisible pink.

I don't think it's any more sinister than the usual purple options.
Pink? Sinister? ... of course! Pink is the preferred color for young boys, as it is a lighter version of red, the color of blood and violence and war!

(no srsly though. I might be kidding now, but this used to be true. how fickle our fashions!)
 
You realize something. You... probably shouldn't tell them all about it, but it should be okay to summarize.

"Something like this actually might have happened before," you say, hesitantly. "I heard a story about another girl like that who started to learn magic without a contract. She wasn't even very magical, but… not too long after that all the witches in town suddenly disappeared, and her friends ran out of grief seeds, and everyone turned on each other."

"When was this?" asks Kyouko. "I've never heard of anything like it.
I feel like Kyouko here. Did I miss something?
 
I feel like Kyouko here. Did I miss something?
Clarisse is talking about Nadeshiko, and is being a little circumoloqucious to avoid spilling secrets.

But Nadeshiko started developing magic of her own, sans contract. And then Mitakihara, which had comfortably been supporting a large group of magical girls, suddenly didn't have enough witches to go around, and all the magical girls started murderizing each other until Yukari Hitomi made her wish to undo all of her friends' contracts.
EDIT: Quotes!
"And then, the grief seeds dried up, and friends started to fight, and the dream turned into a nightmare. Shirokane attacked her own cousin, Taiyou, who killed her in self-defense. And then, after seeing what was happening to her friends, how everyone was taking sides, Kinomoto lost herself to despair."

"Oh, goddess," mumbles Ryouko.

"The one who saved us all was Yukari-san," continues Mr. Shizuki. "She made one last wish, not to save the whole city this time, but just to save the rest of her friends. And then, well, then she said her goodbyes, and we never saw her again." He pauses. "None of them remember what happened. They remember there being friendship, and good times, yes, the best of times… but she wanted to spare them from the rest."
"Damn you, Tomoyo!" you cry out. "Damn you, you beautiful idiot! If it was just the magic talking, it wouldn't be this hard!"

She blinks a few times. You've surprised her.

"Why do you have to make me choose?" you ask, through the tears. "Why can't you just leave me stuck like this? Why do I have to say it? It hurts, Tomoyo-sama, it hurts…"

It's so hard to say. Even breathing is hard.

"But the magic, though," she insists. "The compulsions, I can't just leave you like that—"

You shake your head. "It's… it was all mine all this time," you admit, as much to yourself as to her. "I don't know how, and, it's not strong at all…"

"But… then why?" she asks, confused. "If it's yours, why wouldn't it answer to you? Why would it make you —"

"Just look at me, Tomoyo!" you scream at her. "Look at what it takes for me to admit this!"
 
Last edited:
I guess I misinterpreted that bit because it didn't occur to me that "compelling yourself to act in a certain way" could be a magic power.

Edit: Oh, and this bit is more explicit that Tomoyo couldn't turn Nadeshiko back into a boy because of Nadeshiko's magic rather then some limitation of her own:
"Because I think that might the reason you can't go back," she says. "Because I can't turn a girl into a boy, I can only undo turning a boy into a girl. And if you really want it, if somehow just your own soul got mixed up in it, and decided that's the person you are… if you've decided that's really who you aspire to be… then maybe that's a bit of magic too, somehow. I think that's what's stopping me. I'm almost sure of it, now."
 
Last edited:
And instead of just the city, Kyuuby's leaving Japan to hang. MGs are likely already dying in droves, but war man. And it is a war even if its a quiet one of influence right now.

There are so many reasons I push for soul science that its not even funny.
 
Language. Is. PROBLEMS.

Also, I've spent like an hour on this post nitpicking over ... two paragraphs? Kind of pointlessly?
Edit: Oh, and this bit is more explicit that Tomoyo couldn't turn Nadeshiko back into a boy because of Nadeshiko's magic rather then some limitation of her own:

I don't know about that. To me,
Because I can't turn a girl into a boy, I can only undo turning a boy into a girl.
makes it pretty explicit that Tomoyo cannot turn girls into boys, full stop. Her magic simply does not work that way, just like Ryouko cannot use her magic to turn into a giant fire-breathing lizard. It also implies that Tomoyo has either tried and failed; or that she has an instinctive understanding of her own magic sufficient to know that it doesn't work.

Tomoyo's magic, as far as I know, makes things beautiful and cute. So, I think there are three use cases that are relevant to this particular scenario:
  1. Tomoyo can magic at boys to make them look like cute girls, then undo that.
  2. Tomoyo can magic at girls to make them more beautiful and cute, and then undo that.
  3. Tomoyo categorically cannot magic at girls to make them look like boys. Her magic simply does not work like that.
The problem Tomoyo is running into with Nadeshiko is: she thinks she did a Case 1 to Nadeshiko, when she actually did a Case 2. So, when she tries to "undo" her magic, she's running into Case 3. She can't "undo" turning Nadeshiko into a girl because ... because that doesn't make any sense. Nadeshiko is and always has been a girl. You can't undo turning a girl into a girl because nothing has actually happened there.

Now, I suspect Tomoyo could make Nadeshiko not be beautiful and cute, since her magic is actually responsible for that.
When Tomoyo says
And if you really want it, if somehow just your own soul got mixed up in it, and decided that's the person you are… if you've decided that's really who you aspire to be… then maybe that's a bit of magic too, somehow.
I'm reasonably sure she's being metaphorical. She's saying "personal identity is magic" in the same way we say "friendship is magic" or "such-and-such beautiful thing was magical" - as a shorthand for 'this thing is important and wondrous and possibly a bit spiritual but not literally magical'. She's attempting to be kind and gentle while she leads Nadeshiko into the conversational minefield that is "You're totes a girl and need to admit that to yourself."

Like, a few paragraphs later:
"But the magic, though," she insists. "The compulsions, I can't just leave you like that—"

You shake your head. "It's… it was all mine all this time," you admit, as much to yourself as to her. "I don't know how, and, it's not strong at all…"

"But… then why?" she asks, confused. "If it's yours, why wouldn't it answer to you? Why would it make you —"
Tomoyo is confused by the idea that Nadeshiko has magic. It hadn't occurred to her as a possibility.
I do want to say that, yes, it's possible that Nadeshiko's magic is actually getting in the way. I just don't think that it necessarily is?
 
makes it pretty explicit that Tomoyo cannot turn girls into boys, full stop. Her magic simply does not work that way, just like Ryouko cannot use her magic to turn into a giant fire-breathing lizard. It also implies that Tomoyo has either tried and failed; or that she has an instinctive understanding of her own magic sufficient to know that it doesn't work.
I originally read it that way too, but with the context that Nadeshiko is supposed to have subtle-but-real magic powers it makes sense to me that we should read this as Nadeshiko's soul acting on the world (i.e. doing magic) to force Tomoyo's power to consider her to be a girl rather then a boy.
Tomoyo is confused by the idea that Nadeshiko has magic. It hadn't occurred to her as a possibility.
Not quite, she's confused by the idea that Nadeshiko's magic would give her compulsions she "doesn't want". Tomoyo's response isn't "but you're not a magical girl" it's "but why can't you control it".

That said, the text is clearly spending much more focus on the compulsions rather then the magic of abstract classifications:
This is a question, because getting a job may very well be one of the Things That Nadeshiko Can't Do. That's another way that you can tell the magic is out of Tomoyo-sama's control, because she would never imagine these things, and certainly wouldn't support a rule like that. No, you're pretty sure that things like this are all your fault. This is your karma, and she was just the catalyst for it.

There are a few things you can't do, and many more things you don't get to decide to do. You can't use your old name, tell anyone that you've been enchanted, hint at your secret. You also don't get to do things like ride skateboards, swear, raise your voice, wear pants, or other unladylike things like that. You can't cut your own hair, or decide to get a haircut, but, other people can. It does grows back very quickly, though, even then. The things you told Yukari-san, well, those are the more serious ones.

You try to remember what specifically you said to her, even though this hurts. Do you get to work outside the home? Or do you have to just… marry someone?

Because if this is out of control, that's where it's going, isn't it? And if it's badly out of control... you could end up with, like, twelve kids. This wouldn't be the worst, being stuck with lots of kids. It's who you'd marry that's more the problem. Another complication also occurs to you. You're a little young, the boys you know are a little young, they're not thinking of getting married and supporting someone, yet. To top it off, you're pretty sure that you're not allowed to just approach a boy and say you like him. No, you definitely called out Yukari-san for that one directly. There is no way you could.
I want to see this conversation with Yukari now.
 
The thing with Nadeshiko is she didn't want to admit that this was her, and she went as far as possible to avoid admitting that. That's what the magical compulsions were about, having magic force her to do things so she didn't have to actually say it. She wouldn't have to get over the courage barrier if she just had that excuse. Of course she eventually said it anyway when speaking with Tomoyo when they were discussing why she couldn't turn back.

But in more recent events, it looks like Clow cards are a thing? Also soul jumping in the way we did with our current body and our tactical computer body requires a non-caged soul and the magic that happened when we danced was our own magic.
 
Oh I see, Nadeshiko's magic is forcing her to be a nadeshiko. As in an ideal feminine. Which yes would rather push her towards having 12 kids.

Didn't quite make that connection before. Which raises the question of would papa still be attracted to mama if he was herself. Man that sucks as a delima.
 
Didn't quite make that connection before. Which raises the question of would papa still be attracted to mama if he was herself. Man that sucks as a delima.
Star Empire!Nadeshiko and Tomoyo seemed to still be together, or are at least close enough that Tomoyo kept her alive for 400 years. I suspect the conceptualization of feminity in play here doesn't preclude girls from loving girls. If only we could see that conversation with Yukari and know for sure!
 
I need a TacComp to be a TacComp.
Nanami has proposed a technological approach that can achieve this ;)

If I could pick a taccomp from all the readers right now I would pick Thelxiope for all the marvelous effortposts (but I wouldn't really because it's a bit much of a burden to just ask of someone and she deserves more independence than that would afford her.)

That said: in the name of clarity, I will edit the doot shortly so that it names Nadeshiko explicitly when Clarisse uses her words to relate these things.

You can't undo turning a girl into a girl because nothing has actually happened there.
Well. There's clearly been something on the physical level. But of course this is magic so it doesn't matter as much. The question is, what matters? What rules apply? Magic is soul-stuff, so in cases like these, the rules are, to a large extent, what people with souls think they mean — often the magician herself, but sometimes those she is interacting with. If the interpretation "Nadeshiko was a girl all along" is meaningful, then that is an interpretation sourced from Tomoyo or Nadeshiko herself. (Some nonlinearities may apply: Nadeshiko deciding this in her future may affect things in her present.)

I will also explicitly note that, if some magic that only works on girls didn't work on Nadeshiko, it is not The Rules of Magic Itself passing a judgment and deciding that she is not a real girl (though of course someone might declare otherwise, through ignorance or malice.)

I see what you are getting at with "it doesn't have to be her magic interfering." You wish to highlight the validity of the declaration "Nadeshiko was always a girl." This is of course quite welcome; my general point is simply that you ought not not rely on magic as an independent agency to adjudicate these questions.

She's saying "personal identity is magic" in the same way we say "friendship is magic" or "such-and-such beautiful thing was magical" - as a shorthand for 'this thing is important and wondrous and possibly a bit spiritual but not literally magical'.
Sorta. Personal identity is sometimes literally magic and is involved in a lot of magic, to the extent that Kyouko lost some magic after abandoning part of her identity. You are right that this was not strictly focusing on Nadeshiko being magic, in and of itself, but coincidence between metaphorical magic and actual magic add another layer here. It kinda means both at once.

As for the magic itself … Shizuki Yuji said some things to Yukari Hitomi about how girls ought to behave. Tomoyo used magic that referenced those attitudes and incorporated them into its very structure; as Nadeshiko herself started to further refine and redefine her own expectations of what she could and couldn't do, and what she really wanted, she manipulated that magic, and by doing so took the first steps down the road of a magical awakening.

It looks like Clow cards are a thing?
Clarisse Cards will be a thing if you vote for them. We could make some Sakura Cards in a pinch, too. I do not intend to cameo any more of the Reed family.

Also soul jumping in the way we did with our current body and our tactical computer body requires a non-caged soul
Of course.

Imagine if Ryouko and Hitomi tried to switch. Would Hitomi be magic now? What magic would she be? Would Ryouko's magic be impaired for not acting through the gem? It would be terribly unfair if Hitomi were to fall into despair not having made a wish … and by "unfair" I further mean that I'm not sure how the physics would work out (the despair of becoming a witch is ill matched to her hope, not having made a wish; how does the imbalance resolve?)

Also, yes, cages, most definitely.

Why is pink worrisome?
Maybe ShadowAngel has observed what kind of magical girls have pink hair and is afraid of becoming a protagonist!

If only we could see that conversation with Yukari and know for sure!
- Swap Hitomi back into the past
- use ribbon on Yukari Hitomi to recall this specific conversation
 
... The Grief issue we're currently facing is troubling really.

I... think trying to peek into Soul Gems will net us at least where to go on that front, even if we end up seeing the Witch lurking within. We also need to know why the Witch exists, because it might be inherently connected to their ability to use magic the way they do. We need to know what Grief is then. And hopefully how to remove or transfer it from there.

And then we need to possibly make an updated container for their souls, both as something to house them with less Grief issues (or none, because they are designed by Kyuuby who wants them to Witch, its only right to assume they're designed to facilitate that in ways we can just do away with outright) and so we can destructively investigate how a soul gem is built (hopefully).

I... don't remember what happened last time we investigated a Grief Seed? The text is implying we did.

And what Book is the option talking about? I don't remember that either.
my general point is simply that you ought not not rely on magic as an independent agency to adjudicate these questions.
Magic is as much what you perceive it as being and doing as much as it is just being what it is. Its not an independent arbitrator at any stage and both relies on and is limited by the Will and perceptions/world views of whoever is wielding it at the time.
Maybe ShadowAngel has observed what kind of magical girls have pink hair and is afraid of becoming a protagonist!
More like ever since Madokami got whacked the Ribbons haven't exactly been stable. Pink is worrisome because you never know what's behind the door now.
 
I... don't remember what happened last time we investigated a Grief Seed? The text is implying we did.
Oh, you booped Abraxas and there were feathers inside. Boop!

And what Book is the option talking about? I don't remember that either.
The one Shizuki Tomoyo was using for costume inspiration, which Princess Ryouko found before she left, which had text and illustrations about Walpurgisnacht in it... You know, illustrations sort of like these.


Pink is worrisome because you never know what's behind the door now.
There is a 2/3 chance that it is a goat, so if I open another door and show you that there is a goat behind that one as well then you should switch to the third door. that was an utena joke
 
I really need a list of what the hell kind of problems we're facing and what we think we ought to do about them, sorted by how important each problem is.
 
Oh I see, Nadeshiko's magic is forcing her to be a nadeshiko. As in an ideal feminine. Which yes would rather push her towards having 12 kids.

Didn't quite make that connection before. Which raises the question of would papa still be attracted to mama if he was herself. Man that sucks as a delima.
Fucking what.
Excuse me?

There isn't any nefarious brainwashing that is forcing Nadeshiko to want lots of kids. Nadeshiko wants lots of kids because she likes the idea of having kids.

Nadeshiko is super-femme because she's super-femme. The social roles that appeal to her, the social roles she aspires to, are ones that are traditionally feminine-coded, like "caretaker," or "mother."

Nadeshiko is attracted to Tomoyo for the same reasons anyone is attracted to anyone - and I point out that in the CQ-timeline, where Nadeshiko doesn't have any magic, she's still married to Tomoyo and has 1+ daughters.

Nadeshiko's magic isn't forcing her to be someone she's not; it's forcing her to be someone she is. She's deep in denial and self-doubt - deeper, I suspect, than most cis people have ever been; I know that literally no other bout of denial I've ever had has come anywhere close to the state of denial I was in about being a girl. She needs her magic to force her to be herself, because she can't manage that on her own.

The excuses, the fear, the prevarication, the reflexive denials and distancing: all of those are things Nadeshiko has been using to protect herself - because being trans, admitting even to yourself that you're trans, is terrifying and painful and genuinely dangerous, and denial keeps you safe. Miserable, but safe.

Society. Fucking. Hates. Trans women. Society will hurt trans women if it can. Society will kill trans women if it can. And so, if you never admit - even to yourself - to being a trans woman, society can't hurt you for that. You're safe, because you've fucking torn out your own heart and locked it away in a box where no one can touch it. You wear a mask that looks like what society expects from you, and you pretend even to yourself that it's your face.

And you're safe. You're fucking dying from how you've torn yourself up inside, you've broken your own heart and lost sight of your own fucking soul - but hey, society can't hurt you.

There's a reason trans people are massively prone to suicide.

Tomoyo's magic gave Nadeshiko a body she could bear to inhabit. Nadeshiko's magic cuts through all the obstacles - the anxiety, the denial, the fear, and on and on and on - that she's put in her own way to prevent her from going out and being who she wants to be.

And you know what? Even with two fucking miracles in play - two miracles Nadeshiko received for the price of none, two wishes that she didn't have to sell her soul for - it's still hard for her to come out, even to herself. That's how badly the world screws trans women up.
You also don't get to do things like ride skateboards, swear, raise your voice, wear pants, or other unladylike things like that.
"Damn you, Tomoyo!" you cry out. "Damn you, you beautiful idiot! If it was just the magic talking, it wouldn't be this hard!"
The moment Nadeshiko admits to herself that she's a girl, the compulsions break. Because that's what they're there for. She's compelling herself to push through the fear and confusion and hurt that would otherwise stop her.

If only we could see that conversation with Yukari and know for sure!
- Swap Hitomi back into the past
- use ribbon on Yukari Hitomi to recall this specific conversation
Sending Hitomi back to catch that specific conversation is an awful idea - the ribbon swaps people, which would mean that when Yukari went back, she'd have no idea what had just happened; and also I don't think that there's any good reason to go to our sister and say "hey! Want to go back to the past just in time for your Papa to viciously insult you and say that you don't deserve to live?".

Also, I think we can reconstruct much of what Nadeshiko said to Yukari just from what we already have, and I'd be willing to do that once I've calmed down and don't want to fucking throw things out my window.
I really need a list of what the hell kind of problems we're facing and what we think we ought to do about them, sorted by how important each problem is.
... That might actually help. I think tomoyo might be the only one who has a clue of all the problems at this point though.

I just keep track of the soul/Grief/multiverse-collapse problems myself.
Yeah, I pretty much stick to interpersonal issues myself. Maybe if we each do a list for the things we've been covering? I'll see if I can get to that in the next couple days.

Again, right now I just want to scream at people and that's not a productive state of mind.
 
Again, right now I just want to scream at people and that's not a productive state of mind.
From personal experience: no, no it isn't. *gives pats*

Anyway, I'll start The Listtm:
-Immediate Threat: Kyuuby pulling out of Japan = Massive downturn in Witches. Massive, national level Grief Spiral immanent.
->Potential Solution: Need to work on way to expunge or stop Grief from accumulating in the soul unnaturally in the first place. Investigate Souls, Grief, Soul Gems, and alternatives to Soul Gems.
-Existential Threat: Gretchen eating the multi/universe. Cause unclear beyond overflowing Grief within a Universe. (What is Grief? Is some universal or multiversal balance being upset when souls are mutated into Grief Seeds? Investigation needed. Somewhat linked with current Immediate Threat.)
->Potential Solution: Unknown. Gretchen held back by fear of Madokami still despite her disappearance otherwise. Problem currently on hold. Solution pending investigations into Grief.
-Back-burner problems: Getting Sakura independence, Figuring out what is up with Feathers more (Why feathers of all things?), plotting out magic mathematics to detect (problems in?) souls (possibly needed for current immediate threat solution), figuring out how magic directly interacts with other souls (its emitted from them, how is it when it comes into contact with another soul? Also possibly needed for current threat solution)

That's all I got off the top of my head right now.
 
Last edited:
Sending Hitomi back to catch that specific conversation is an awful idea - the ribbon swaps people, which would mean that when Yukari went back, she'd have no idea what had just happened
Oh, I simply meant just send her to make friends with Nadeshiko or something (potentially a gentle introduction to Nadeshiko?) and then use the ribbon to access that memory through the (swapped) Yukari-san (potentiality mildly problematic, memory inspection is a little un-privacy).

This is not an automatically great and awesome idea, but it is definitely better than trying to send Hitomi to be there to live that conversation (which would be an utterly useless, unproductive paradox)

Again, right now I just want to scream at people and that's not a productive state of mind.
I am sorry to see you upset over CQ (and the world at large) and offer hugs; I want us to live in a world where a Thelxiope may find herself at peace.
 
-Existential Threat: Gretchen eating the multi/universe. Cause unclear beyond overflowing Grief within a Universe. (What is Grief? Is some universal or multiversal balance being upset when souls are mutated into Grief Seeds? Investigation needed. Somewhat linked with current Immediate Threat.)

I don't think gretchen wants to eat the multi-verse? All she ever wanted was homura to be happy in one timeline.

Anyway, time to add to the list™:

-Threat: Kyubey wants us to contract. Doing so will cage our soul and cause us issues. ALso we then have the risk (extreamly high risk) of witching out and destorying the world.
-Threat: Kyubey sees us as a threat to the magical girl system and if they can't contract us will want to see us dead.
-Threat: Walpy is coming. Soul magic will be helpful here
-Proplem: Magical girls turn to witches. Gretchen indicates a desire to live a normal life with someone cute. Will need to work out a replacement system to either madokami or magical girls as a whole.
--Related: Kyubey is not currently recruiting any magical girls in japan and we will get a massive witchout soon. We may want to get cubes spread far and wide in the short term. Hopfully the magical girls we run into are like solo Kyouko and will appreciate the security of demons.
-Proplem: The SE is due to blow up in our future and get replaced by this universe and we are expected to perform that action. What outcome are we after from this?
 
Related: Kyubey is not currently recruiting any magical girls in japan and we will get a massive witchout soon. We may want to get cubes spread far and wide in the short term. Hopfully the magical girls we run into are like solo Kyouko and will appreciate the security of demons.

Is this really something that we can address? It's fine to mention it as a problem but framing it as "We are going to do X thing" is potentially problematic. Unless you have implicit, unlisted concerns that have already driven you to feel that said course of action is necessary?
 
Back
Top