Burden of the Emerald Empire (A Legend of the Five Rings Tale)
- Thread starter gman391
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- Fantasy
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- Leeds
Lion: Oh theres no one I want to punch more than the Crane.
Random Doji: Yeah, screw the Kakita.
- Location
- Leeds
[X] Otomo Kotaru (Courtier approach)
Breaking alliances is what the Otomo do.
Breaking alliances is what the Otomo do.
keenscythe
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@Sirrocco I remember us talking about how we didn't want to give the Crane any freebies via letting them lopside tradition in their favor again/still. But what traditions do we want to establish anyway? I would like to establish one for letting the newly coronated Emperor or Empress based on the political realities and/or their personal preference for their rule. I also like how we have avoided having having more than one clan each for our council. Hopefully Minoru will continue those for her children.
Sirrocco
Pedantic
So... thinking about it, I'm not sure that we *do* want to take all of the tradition power away from the Crane. If we do that, then once we're done, they have almost nothing left. It's not that their role isn't helpful, it's that they've been far too successful at it. the fact is though, that Honor really is a meaningful and important force in our world, and we *don't* want to let every part of Rokugan culture be washed away by the tide of the New. Mostly, we'd like to stop being so horrifically inefficient about basically everything, and let in enough trade that we aren't utterly blindsided by the developments that the rest of the world achieves.
I dunno. I feel like i'm only half-coherent here, but I'm not convinced that I have more than that in me right now.
keenscythe
No longer NEET
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- WA, USA
I'm pretty sure they will always have the Emerald Championship on lockdown and Hisao confirmed that they will still be the Empress's bodyguards so it's not like they will have nothing in the future.
Year 8: Winter Court VIII: Mother Dearest
Month of the Rat 10th day. (Early Winter)
You found your mother where you expected her to be, in the workshop making small toys for her grand children. Kyuden Hida had dozens of small workshops most dedicated to crafting weapons or materials for the Kaiu traps...but a few just for the simple art of it all. This was one of the last kind with a low ceiling but an open door that let in the sunlight and kept the air moving.
Naturally she had her guards, but when you ordered them and your own out, she looks up in surprise.
"Hisao?" she asks.
You blink, you don't remember the grey in her hair, or the way the crows feet around her eyes tightened. When did your mother get old?
"Mother...I need to talk to you about something." You say.
"Is it...about that?" She looks towards the door and then down across your body.
"No, its about you." You say ignoring her continued attempt to get you with a concubine.
Your mother shifts to face you fully.
"About me? What's wrong?"
"Hida Kuon-san had an interesting talk about me...regarding a Hida Benjiro" You say.
There's no one sign that tells you anything, but a combination of them. The way her face goes too still, her eyes look everywhere but you, her hands tightening...there is something there.
"I...don't know the man except by reputation." She says.
A lie...a lie told to protect, but a lie, and that isn't...your mother never lied to you, that was what you believed.
Your face goes still as you speak simply.
"Mother, someone is blackmailing him, saying he is your lover. Its true isn't it?"
She says nothing as the toy she's working on is destroyed by the sudden tension in her hands. It says all you need to know.
You feel...truthfully you don't know what you feel. Angry that she lied, hurt that she somehow betrayed the memory of your father...disgust at Benjiro taking advantage of your mother. Sad that she didn't trust you with this. It's a confusing mix of emotions.
"Why?" You ask.
She looks down. "Does it matter? Nothing I say will make you forgive me."
"Forgive you for betraying Father..." you say less as a question and more as a statement.
"Hai...it does not matter that I mourned him for two years I mourned him before I found a companion while you were at Kyuden Moto...and then...it progressed, I was discreet, I did everything that these fucking Crane demand to keep an affair honourable...and its all for nothing." She says bitterly.
"Mother..." you begin.
"Don't mother me. I loved your father. I still love him...but I..." she trails off.
"Was lonely, you wanted at first just a way to enjoy being a woman again...but it turned into something more." You finish.
Something clicks in the back of your mind.
"The concubines....did your desire for them have something to do with this?"
"...Hai" she says slowly. "There was a..pregnancy scare, women my age don't...usually have children so..." she shrugs.
The quiet rage that you kept so leashed boils.
"Then you lean on one of the concubines to pass them off as one of my children? Mother how could you?!"
"What else was I supposed to do?" She meets your anger with her own. "A bastard from the Dowager Empress? That would destroy everything!"
"You were supposed to not have that issue!" You hiss back.
There's a vicious look in her face.
"Well I'm sorry Hisao, your mother isn't perfect like your Kaname. I'm sorry I'm not good enough for you"
The words hurt, they're meant to hurt, you've never really fought with your mother. You've spent time with her, you've enabled her to pursue her own projects...but you've never fought with her...and well, she learned to fight with words from your father.
"It's not about that" You throw back. "Its about you not telling me. What did you think I would lock you up in a tower like I was Hantei XXV?"
"I think you would do what you thought best for the Toturi, just as your father did, and yes that might mean locking me up, or sending Benjiro off to die somewhere." She says.
"...am I really that kind of monster, mother?"
Her black eyes meet yours.
"You've changed everything in the name of making the Empire and your position stronger, time and again when confronted with resistance, you choose an option to crush it rather than compromise. Why in ningen-do, would I believe that you would let me have a lover?"
You don't have a response to that. You don't have a response to any of this.
"I've ordered the blackmail taken care of, you have that at least" You say at last.
She nods and kowtows. "If I might leave my Emperor?"
[] Write in
[] Let her go
You found your mother where you expected her to be, in the workshop making small toys for her grand children. Kyuden Hida had dozens of small workshops most dedicated to crafting weapons or materials for the Kaiu traps...but a few just for the simple art of it all. This was one of the last kind with a low ceiling but an open door that let in the sunlight and kept the air moving.
Naturally she had her guards, but when you ordered them and your own out, she looks up in surprise.
"Hisao?" she asks.
You blink, you don't remember the grey in her hair, or the way the crows feet around her eyes tightened. When did your mother get old?
"Mother...I need to talk to you about something." You say.
"Is it...about that?" She looks towards the door and then down across your body.
"No, its about you." You say ignoring her continued attempt to get you with a concubine.
Your mother shifts to face you fully.
"About me? What's wrong?"
"Hida Kuon-san had an interesting talk about me...regarding a Hida Benjiro" You say.
There's no one sign that tells you anything, but a combination of them. The way her face goes too still, her eyes look everywhere but you, her hands tightening...there is something there.
"I...don't know the man except by reputation." She says.
A lie...a lie told to protect, but a lie, and that isn't...your mother never lied to you, that was what you believed.
Your face goes still as you speak simply.
"Mother, someone is blackmailing him, saying he is your lover. Its true isn't it?"
She says nothing as the toy she's working on is destroyed by the sudden tension in her hands. It says all you need to know.
You feel...truthfully you don't know what you feel. Angry that she lied, hurt that she somehow betrayed the memory of your father...disgust at Benjiro taking advantage of your mother. Sad that she didn't trust you with this. It's a confusing mix of emotions.
"Why?" You ask.
She looks down. "Does it matter? Nothing I say will make you forgive me."
"Forgive you for betraying Father..." you say less as a question and more as a statement.
"Hai...it does not matter that I mourned him for two years I mourned him before I found a companion while you were at Kyuden Moto...and then...it progressed, I was discreet, I did everything that these fucking Crane demand to keep an affair honourable...and its all for nothing." She says bitterly.
"Mother..." you begin.
"Don't mother me. I loved your father. I still love him...but I..." she trails off.
"Was lonely, you wanted at first just a way to enjoy being a woman again...but it turned into something more." You finish.
Something clicks in the back of your mind.
"The concubines....did your desire for them have something to do with this?"
"...Hai" she says slowly. "There was a..pregnancy scare, women my age don't...usually have children so..." she shrugs.
The quiet rage that you kept so leashed boils.
"Then you lean on one of the concubines to pass them off as one of my children? Mother how could you?!"
"What else was I supposed to do?" She meets your anger with her own. "A bastard from the Dowager Empress? That would destroy everything!"
"You were supposed to not have that issue!" You hiss back.
There's a vicious look in her face.
"Well I'm sorry Hisao, your mother isn't perfect like your Kaname. I'm sorry I'm not good enough for you"
The words hurt, they're meant to hurt, you've never really fought with your mother. You've spent time with her, you've enabled her to pursue her own projects...but you've never fought with her...and well, she learned to fight with words from your father.
"It's not about that" You throw back. "Its about you not telling me. What did you think I would lock you up in a tower like I was Hantei XXV?"
"I think you would do what you thought best for the Toturi, just as your father did, and yes that might mean locking me up, or sending Benjiro off to die somewhere." She says.
"...am I really that kind of monster, mother?"
Her black eyes meet yours.
"You've changed everything in the name of making the Empire and your position stronger, time and again when confronted with resistance, you choose an option to crush it rather than compromise. Why in ningen-do, would I believe that you would let me have a lover?"
You don't have a response to that. You don't have a response to any of this.
"I've ordered the blackmail taken care of, you have that at least" You say at last.
She nods and kowtows. "If I might leave my Emperor?"
[] Write in
[] Let her go
keenscythe
No longer NEET
- Location
- WA, USA
[X] Let her go
-[X] For what it is worth if you had told me the truth before this I would have given my blessing and my wish for you two to enjoy some discreet happiness, and despite my frustration at this blackmail attempt, I still wish you and lover some peace and joy in this world. Just y'know get less caught.
--[X] But more eloquently. Less Angry than frustrated at this blackmail attempt and political disruption than at his mother trying to get laid.
---[X] Also point out that the times you refused to compromise were when everyone in the situiation were being total asses about it.
----[X] Also more eloquently
@gman391 Can widows remarry in rokugani culture? And how big is her Faux-Pas to have a lover since her husband is by all accounts dead and well before any children of this dalliance couldcbe born making sure that there isn't a succession crisis (Provided we dump any children of this to the Otomo family prememptively)? She should be well past the mourning period and I remember Hisao worrying about offers for her hand?
-[X] For what it is worth if you had told me the truth before this I would have given my blessing and my wish for you two to enjoy some discreet happiness, and despite my frustration at this blackmail attempt, I still wish you and lover some peace and joy in this world. Just y'know get less caught.
--[X] But more eloquently. Less Angry than frustrated at this blackmail attempt and political disruption than at his mother trying to get laid.
---[X] Also point out that the times you refused to compromise were when everyone in the situiation were being total asses about it.
----[X] Also more eloquently
@gman391 Can widows remarry in rokugani culture? And how big is her Faux-Pas to have a lover since her husband is by all accounts dead and well before any children of this dalliance couldcbe born making sure that there isn't a succession crisis (Provided we dump any children of this to the Otomo family prememptively)? She should be well past the mourning period and I remember Hisao worrying about offers for her hand?
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@keenscythe
Depends on the clan, widows can remarry as a rule. (Sans Scorpion) But its not a black and white situation.
I'm admittedly drawing a little on my knowledge of real world customs here because the setting is sparse on details about the position. But working within the bounds filial piety, women with children rarely remarry because it complicates things like inheritance and in theory their children are supposed to provide for them until they retire to a monastery. Since most marriages are political matches, there's always things like machinations that the children aren't legitimate and well it gets into some succession disputes quickly. So yes widows can remarry but its typically done when there are no children to worry about or the woman is low status enough that her remarriage won't affect the inheritance of the other family.
For the Dowager Empress this gets more tricky because she and Kaname to some extent serve the role of being the 'Mother' of the Empire as a quasi representative of Amaterasu (or at least that was how it worked and tradition kept it that way when Amaterasu killed herself) Hence the scandal. Its not strictly a fair system placed on them both, but they're expected to be 'pure' for lack of a better word. That's what makes the affair such a problem, because it impacts that, and while right now Hisao and Daio are mostly free of pretenders...that wasn't always the case and won't always be the case for their children. Ryoko becomes an attack point for those who want regime change, albeit one more focused on Daio atm. Its not true and most probably won't believe it...but succession coups are rarely about truth.
Ryoko could marry out, but she would have to step down as the Dowager to do so, and that means a loss of a lot of contacts not the least first hand access to the Empress. So for a lot of the story she didn't want to do that, and by the time when doing so wouldn't cost the Crab anything, she had gotten into a routine. She made a friend and then well fell in love without meaning to. It happens, and one of the tragedies of being the Imperial family is that what would be a family squabble for others, becomes something that she could lose everything over...just for being human.
Depends on the clan, widows can remarry as a rule. (Sans Scorpion) But its not a black and white situation.
I'm admittedly drawing a little on my knowledge of real world customs here because the setting is sparse on details about the position. But working within the bounds filial piety, women with children rarely remarry because it complicates things like inheritance and in theory their children are supposed to provide for them until they retire to a monastery. Since most marriages are political matches, there's always things like machinations that the children aren't legitimate and well it gets into some succession disputes quickly. So yes widows can remarry but its typically done when there are no children to worry about or the woman is low status enough that her remarriage won't affect the inheritance of the other family.
For the Dowager Empress this gets more tricky because she and Kaname to some extent serve the role of being the 'Mother' of the Empire as a quasi representative of Amaterasu (or at least that was how it worked and tradition kept it that way when Amaterasu killed herself) Hence the scandal. Its not strictly a fair system placed on them both, but they're expected to be 'pure' for lack of a better word. That's what makes the affair such a problem, because it impacts that, and while right now Hisao and Daio are mostly free of pretenders...that wasn't always the case and won't always be the case for their children. Ryoko becomes an attack point for those who want regime change, albeit one more focused on Daio atm. Its not true and most probably won't believe it...but succession coups are rarely about truth.
Ryoko could marry out, but she would have to step down as the Dowager to do so, and that means a loss of a lot of contacts not the least first hand access to the Empress. So for a lot of the story she didn't want to do that, and by the time when doing so wouldn't cost the Crab anything, she had gotten into a routine. She made a friend and then well fell in love without meaning to. It happens, and one of the tragedies of being the Imperial family is that what would be a family squabble for others, becomes something that she could lose everything over...just for being human.
Sirrocco
Pedantic
This is Rokugan. Benten is... less of a friend to humanity than one might expect of a love goddess.
That said... I kind of feel like having her step down and marry out *might* be worthwhile, if we could pull it off without undue damage. Presumably the Scorpion Answer doesn't require acknowledging why the target in question is being quietly destroyed. We have her step down now, and perhaps have it quietly implied that it was over friction with the Empress and a desire to prevent further conflict. Among other things, that might actually blunt the edge of the blackmail attempt all by itself. I'm not *certain* how it would work, but if she's not actually the Dowager Empress, then I feel like the threat loses a fair bit of its kick.
@gman391 how would having her step down now complicate and/or simplify the situation?
That said... I kind of feel like having her step down and marry out *might* be worthwhile, if we could pull it off without undue damage. Presumably the Scorpion Answer doesn't require acknowledging why the target in question is being quietly destroyed. We have her step down now, and perhaps have it quietly implied that it was over friction with the Empress and a desire to prevent further conflict. Among other things, that might actually blunt the edge of the blackmail attempt all by itself. I'm not *certain* how it would work, but if she's not actually the Dowager Empress, then I feel like the threat loses a fair bit of its kick.
@gman391 how would having her step down now complicate and/or simplify the situation?
It would complicate it, for reasons that have not yet been revealed.
Sirrocco
Pedantic
Okay. Well, we really ought to try to throw together some sort of vote here. This is... almost orthogonal to all of the stuff we've been working on/for so far. As such... well, I'm thinking the question isn't "How do we get what we want?" but "What's in character?" So for that...
- Mom has been kind of stone cold for much or all of our life. She's butted heads with basically everyone in going for her objectives, and she stuffed us and our brother away in a monastery for years rather than give us any real motherly affection. Our most recent major interaction with her has been as part of a violent row around where to send our daughter. There's just not that much warmth in our relationship.
- At the same time, she *has* tried to be supportive in her own way. I feel like Mom mostly had our back, and we did learn useful things from her about proper management of the empire.
- We're feeling kind of hurt right now. We love our mother, but we're unlikely to
hmmm...
[x] "Mother. I am going to solve this. Hida Benjiro is a loyal and valuable servant of the Empire, and I do not intend to lose his services. Moreover, whoever it is that is doing the blackmailing... they've made themselves an obstacle, and I am as you have described me. Once that is done... once that is done, we will have a talk about what may be done with respect to the wider issue, and then I will decide, and then we will fix it."
[x] "Now you may go."
Basically, offering her a few reassurances, without forcing ourselves to not be upset at her. Also laying on her that there's a cost to this, and there will be consequences, and part of the cost for her is that she doesn't get to decide exactly what those consequences are. We care about our mother, but the relationship is not warm, and she has now passed by the point where she could have made it warm.
- Mom has been kind of stone cold for much or all of our life. She's butted heads with basically everyone in going for her objectives, and she stuffed us and our brother away in a monastery for years rather than give us any real motherly affection. Our most recent major interaction with her has been as part of a violent row around where to send our daughter. There's just not that much warmth in our relationship.
- At the same time, she *has* tried to be supportive in her own way. I feel like Mom mostly had our back, and we did learn useful things from her about proper management of the empire.
- We're feeling kind of hurt right now. We love our mother, but we're unlikely to
hmmm...
[x] "Mother. I am going to solve this. Hida Benjiro is a loyal and valuable servant of the Empire, and I do not intend to lose his services. Moreover, whoever it is that is doing the blackmailing... they've made themselves an obstacle, and I am as you have described me. Once that is done... once that is done, we will have a talk about what may be done with respect to the wider issue, and then I will decide, and then we will fix it."
[x] "Now you may go."
Basically, offering her a few reassurances, without forcing ourselves to not be upset at her. Also laying on her that there's a cost to this, and there will be consequences, and part of the cost for her is that she doesn't get to decide exactly what those consequences are. We care about our mother, but the relationship is not warm, and she has now passed by the point where she could have made it warm.
keenscythe
No longer NEET
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- WA, USA
To be fair I wasn't wrong in that we only had Hisao steamroll over his opposition when they were unwilling to compromise. The Scorpion-Crab over Kisada and Crab-Crane thing over the Yasuki lands were resolved by compromising (eventually). The whole Lion Fiasco was over the fact that neither were unwilling to compromise with the other family over the position of Clan Champion. The Mantis thing happened because we went to them for winter court in an effort to resolve their issues with us. Y'know before the assassination attempt that led us to levy what they felt was a fair punishment on them. The Scorpion we have been trying to reconcile with them but at his winter court with them, Hisao was publicly called a cuck and wife a massive ho. The only surprising thing was that he didn't just execute everyone involved instead of letting Paneki hunt down the culprits.
Honestly we should have take the title "The River" as Hisao either works with you (Crab-Crane Scorpion- Dispute), flows around you (Can't honorably agree as to who is the new Lion Champion? I will put my Brother in charge, feel free to doubt his claim if you want), or just smashes through them (People being difficult about working with each other in the Army of Eight Banners? Execute the screaming Jackasses and put the Minor clans in charge.)
But yeah maybe my vote was a little too forgiving. I just blame the fact that I thought the problem with Hisao's mother getting some sugar since her hubby died was the fact she got caught. Basically the Scandal was the issue not the deed.
Anyways @gman391 Have their been any offers yet for Ryoko's hand yet? Or should the lack of them been a hint that something was up?
- Location
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What exactly is the fourth option? Folds like a soggy house of cards?
keenscythe
No longer NEET
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Fail and not get your way or just ignore the situation to begin with.
Or be clever enough to satisfy everyone at once.
@keenscythe
There have been a few offers in the first year which were refused off screen by Ryoko but none after the Kyuden Gusai trip. But that wouldn't be unusual after a number of rejections to anyone who was interested and had the status to do it.
@Sirrocco
It was Naseru, not Ryoko that sent Hisao and Daio off to train in the middle of nowhere under Itsume the Kenku. Ryoko was the one who tried to visit as often as she can.
There have been a few offers in the first year which were refused off screen by Ryoko but none after the Kyuden Gusai trip. But that wouldn't be unusual after a number of rejections to anyone who was interested and had the status to do it.
@Sirrocco
It was Naseru, not Ryoko that sent Hisao and Daio off to train in the middle of nowhere under Itsume the Kenku. Ryoko was the one who tried to visit as often as she can.
Deadly Snark
Tryhard As Fuck
Aha.
AHAHAHAHAHA.
Ha.
Fuck off.
She can fuck right off.
I need a computer to make my full post. But the fuck does she think she has the right to call out Hisao for protecting his dynasty? Hisao has strengthen the position of the Toturi immensely. Enough that they should have been secured for generations.
Her actions both the ones she did and the ones she planned would have threatened not only everything Hisao has build but it would have been ruinous to the crab and the Empire.
She doesn' have a leg to stand on.
Just the affair would have been bad enough but tolerable to an extent if well managed. But she had the gall to try to consider passing on her child as one of Hisao's? Fuck you.
Had that completely Crab child somehow ended up being Toturi the Fifth the entire realm would have been torn asunder in civil war.
Best case scenario Daio would have called the Lion and other supporters to war and burn down the palace and Crab lands in a legitimate bid to restore the true imperial bloodline. Worse case scenario the future of the Toturi would have involved decades of ruinous civil war.
She doesn' get to coast her way into being just forgiven because she's the Empress Dowager. Her actions are almost unforgivable precisely because she is the Empress Dowager.
Is it fair to Her? No. But well tough shit. Imperial families don't get to have fair.
She is Empress Dowager and she is Crab. Duty above all and she has failed utterly.
AHAHAHAHAHA.
Ha.
Fuck off.
She can fuck right off.
I need a computer to make my full post. But the fuck does she think she has the right to call out Hisao for protecting his dynasty? Hisao has strengthen the position of the Toturi immensely. Enough that they should have been secured for generations.
Her actions both the ones she did and the ones she planned would have threatened not only everything Hisao has build but it would have been ruinous to the crab and the Empire.
She doesn' have a leg to stand on.
Just the affair would have been bad enough but tolerable to an extent if well managed. But she had the gall to try to consider passing on her child as one of Hisao's? Fuck you.
Had that completely Crab child somehow ended up being Toturi the Fifth the entire realm would have been torn asunder in civil war.
Best case scenario Daio would have called the Lion and other supporters to war and burn down the palace and Crab lands in a legitimate bid to restore the true imperial bloodline. Worse case scenario the future of the Toturi would have involved decades of ruinous civil war.
She doesn' get to coast her way into being just forgiven because she's the Empress Dowager. Her actions are almost unforgivable precisely because she is the Empress Dowager.
Is it fair to Her? No. But well tough shit. Imperial families don't get to have fair.
She is Empress Dowager and she is Crab. Duty above all and she has failed utterly.
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- Location
- Leeds
[x] "Mother. I am going to solve this. Hida Benjiro is a loyal and valuable servant of the Empire, and I do not intend to lose his services. Moreover, whoever it is that is doing the blackmailing... they've made themselves an obstacle, and I am as you have described me. Once that is done... once that is done, we will have a talk about what may be done with respect to the wider issue, and then I will decide, and then we will fix it."
[x] "Now you may go."
[x] "Now you may go."
keenscythe
No longer NEET
- Location
- WA, USA
[x] "Mother. I am going to solve this. Hida Benjiro is a loyal and valuable servant of the Empire, and I do not intend to lose his services. Moreover, whoever it is that is doing the blackmailing... they've made themselves an obstacle, and I am as you have described me. Once that is done... once that is done, we will have a talk about what may be done with respect to the wider issue, and then I will decide, and then we will fix it."
[x] "Now you may go."
Wasn't too attached to my vote to begin with and at least now it should be unanimous.
[x] "Now you may go."
Wasn't too attached to my vote to begin with and at least now it should be unanimous.
- Location
- Boston
[x] "Mother. I am going to solve this. Hida Benjiro is a loyal and valuable servant of the Empire, and I do not intend to lose his services. Moreover, whoever it is that is doing the blackmailing... they've made themselves an obstacle, and I am as you have described me. Once that is done... once that is done, we will have a talk about what may be done with respect to the wider issue, and then I will decide, and then we will fix it."
[x] "Now you may go."
[x] "Now you may go."