Sir_Braazmiir
Tiefling Paladin
- Location
- Wherever I am
Personally, I'd like to see one of the older battleships, like Nassau, Kawachi, or Michigan. They'd obviously be too old for surface combat, but maybe as old, badass grandmas trainers.
Belated Battleships (KanColle) [REHOST]
- Thread starter theJMPer
- Start date
7734
Trust and verify.
- Location
- Philmont
Michigan's... busy.
Yeah, that's a nice way of putting it.
There are things she needs to take care of, after all. At least she can ask her escorts to help.
Skywalker_T-65
Writer with too many ideas.
- Location
- United States
- Pronouns
- Plural/They/He/Her
Thought about Nassau, but I've already got my (grand)momboat in Dreadnought.
(and Furious to some extent)
- Location
- State of Denial
I like to think the Kai Ni's for the older USN dreadnoughts would include the 12"/50 'Laska guns, the Japanese momboat could also get the 31cm guns destined for the B-65 cruisers.
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
Hm, yeah. You'd have to go with something like that, since (unlike with the Standards and the New Yorks) there's no guidelines as to what they look like in Kai Ni form, because most of them only got one cycle of upgrades in before the Washington Treaty.
Skywalker_T-65
Writer with too many ideas.
- Location
- United States
- Pronouns
- Plural/They/He/Her
That would really only work for the first three generations. Arky and Wyoming both served right through WW2 so we know what their Kai and Kai-Ni would be.
(Wyoming is interesting because her training ship form could be seen as a (slow) ALL THE DAKKA boat)
Would take a hell of a lot of MSSB to justify though. Those ships aren't really built for those guns and even that relatively small change in caliber is quite a big change in absolute terms. Recoil most certainly.
(Wyoming is interesting because her training ship form could be seen as a (slow) ALL THE DAKKA boat)
Would take a hell of a lot of MSSB to justify though. Those ships aren't really built for those guns and even that relatively small change in caliber is quite a big change in absolute terms. Recoil most certainly.
- Location
- Arizona
Once South Carolina and Michigan get their Kai Ni upgrades they'd be absolutely *beasts* of convoy escorts. Their slow speed won't be a problem when escorting ships even slower than they are, they have the firepower and armor to make Abyssal capital ships keep their distance and would have the AA to beat off air attack. Plus they are agile enough that submarine attacks will be problematic since they can likely dodge torpedo spreads.
- Location
- Pacific NW
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
It's debateable whether they ever really got a "Kai Ni" upgrade round (not all ships did, in my opinion).
Although, hm. [maths, checks NavWeaps]
USA 12"/50 (30.5 cm) Mark 7 - NavWeaps
USA 12"/50 (30.5 cm) Mark 8 - NavWeaps
Okay, full charge on the 12"/50 Mark 8 used by Alaska gives a muzzle velocity of 2500 ft/s on an 1140-pound shell. Full charge on the Wyomings' Mark 7s gives 2900 ft/s on an 870-pound shell. Momentum is equal to mass times velocity, so we can compare momentum figures just by multiplying shell mass times muzzle velocity.
Courtesy of Newton's Third Law, we should be able to get a figure for recoil just by multiplying well-known muzzle velocity figures by well-known shell weights.
I'm making the simplifying assumption that all recoil is caused by the shell flying out of the gun barrel, ignoring, say, any bits of powder leaving the barrel as well.
Notably, the Mark 7 actually has a greater mass of propellant than the Mark 8. So this assumption is probably going to be slightly biased in favor of overestimating the Mark 8's recoil, compared to the Mark 7.
Notably, the Mark 7 actually has a greater mass of propellant than the Mark 8. So this assumption is probably going to be slightly biased in favor of overestimating the Mark 8's recoil, compared to the Mark 7.
Anyway, multiplying shell weight by muzzle velocity to get momentum, the Mark 8 does indeed have 12% more recoil with its heavier shells, despite the lower muzzle velocity. While this isn't nearly as bad as you'd get from a typical increase in gun caliber, it's still enough to be a problem.
It could possibly be circumvented by using a reduced powder charge, though. For example, the Mark 8 fired at "Special Charge" (whatever that means) has a muzzle velocity of only 2300 ft/s. With this somewhat reduced charge, the Mark 8 would have only 4% more recoil than a Mark 7 fired at full charge. Given that the (notional) new turrets would have much higher elevation, you would still get significantly increased range, though beefing up the recoil system would still be desirable if possible, to enable safer firing at full charge.
Speculatively, the recoil from the "special charge" Mark 8 might actually be gentler than that on the Mark 7 in some ways. The shell is being accelerated to a significantly lower speed on the way out the (roughly equal length) barrel. So while there is the same amount of total recoil, it's spread out over a longer time and less force is being exerted on the recoil absorption system at any given time.
Sliiiight problem IF we assume that "Kai Ni" means "maximum upgrades."
See... the older USN dreadnoughts never got the elevation angle upgrade from fifteen to thirty degrees. Their maximum gun range is very limited as a result, and a lot of Abyssals will just be able to stand outside their range and hammer them with plunging fire indefinitely.
Unless, of course, we posit that "Kai Ni" means something like "maximum conceivable refit possible using WWII-era weapons," in which case we can go right ahead and assume that South Carolina Kai Ni has had her turrets refitted/replaced with something that can reach out to thirty thousand yards or whatever. Using the same guns but a different turret layout would probably work, as was done (if I'm not mistaken) with most of the older Standards that were designed for fifteen-degree elevation.
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- Location
- Arizona
I agree, that's why the South Carolina's would have no place at all in the battle line. But as the close in escort for convoys they are going to almost always be facing lighter ships than Abyssal dreads, they'll be facing cruisers and destroyers. They have the main battery to shred cruisers which will *have* to come within range to engage, and while the secondaries are comparatively light vis-a-vis a more modern dread the full Kai Ni will still give them improved fire control and the latest iterations of the 3"/50, so abyssal dds would be in trouble as well from sheer volume of fire.
They'd be superb convoy protection ships, if any admiral put them up against the abyssal battle line they're smoking very bad weed and need to be examined for insanity.
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
Um... why would they have to? A LOT of cruisers could range out to thirty thousand yards or more, and would frankly have a better chance of putting down a battleship from extreme range anyway, because plunging fire is more likely to go through the deck.
- Location
- Sunny SoCal
I think it should be noted though that, discounting aircraft, the primary threat to convoys has always been the submarine, not surface vessels. South Carolina, bless her soul, would be little more than a fat juicy target for an Abyssal sub. she would need an escort to protect her on her escort mission from subs. At this point, you may as well just get a cruiser that can do both. Shame though it may be, the only purposes the grandma boats have in this war is training younger ship girls and spoiling them rotten with grandmotherly love.
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
Actually, battleships as convoy escorts DO serve a purpose when you have reason to be worried about enemy surface raiders, which is a very real problem in Belated Battleships because very few steel-hulled ships available would have a good chance of defeating an Abyssal cruiser. Abyssal!Emden or Abyssal!Graf Spee would be a much bigger threat in the Atlantic here than they were in real life, because there just aren't as many heavy ships capable of stopping them.
So a pre-Jutland dreadnought would actually not be a bad choice for that, as long as she has the gun range to engage enemy cruisers meaningfully and not just get pelted with 6" or 8" shells at a range from which she cannot reply.
So a pre-Jutland dreadnought would actually not be a bad choice for that, as long as she has the gun range to engage enemy cruisers meaningfully and not just get pelted with 6" or 8" shells at a range from which she cannot reply.
YuffieK
(Verified Ninja Princess)
<looks at the SB thread>
Huh, was expecting it to be Harry DRESDEN and the Shipgirls if there was something oogly-moogly in the Great Lakes that creeped them out.
- Location
- People's Republik of Kalifornia
Scariest fic summary I've seen yet: "Luna Lovegood has the Innsmouth Look"
- Location
- Sunny SoCal
Eh. idk still. Our one example in Belated Battleship of convoy running utilized a variety of DDs CLs, CVLs that were to protect the tankers and fairly modern BBs, one of whom JM has made very clear is scared shitless of subs even though she is arguable the most powerful ship afloat, from threats like aircraft and submarines. The only likely reason that they were not attacked by subs but instead a surface fleet is because the convoy was on a very northern rout, into weather that made a sub threat virtually nill, that went right past a princess class installation . And let's be honest, how excited would it be for us to read about DDs chasing after a sub for half an hour every 3 chapters? Nah we want to hear about all the really juicy stuff that happens in this world, but even if no one is around to hear the tree fall it still makes a noise, or in this case torpedoes a transport.
As for the pre dreadnoughts in convoys, SC cruised at 10kts. A modern super tanker cruises between 8 and 14 knts, depending on the demand for oil, and since it's very high right now, a ship like SC would likely. In the event of a surface threat, you would also want to be able to charge out ahead of the convoy to protect them from the incoming threat. Since the SC can go no faster than a modern tanker (17 kts) putting distance between your intercept force and the convoy is gonna be a challenge. And then we have to take into account that these ships are old and using outdated aiming systems and other technologies which calls into question their combat effectiveness against a commerce raiding fleet that is likely to consist of smaller faster ships, Or worst case scenario a Scharnhorst class. In that case she is out gunned, obsolete, and too slow to run away.
Relating back to Kancolle terms, ships like SC are likely to be the loving grandmas of the fleet (like hosho). Sure, you can use them in combat but are they really that effective? Plus, the massive implosion of ship girl moral due to a Grandma boat sinking would make the death of Yamato look like someone took a toy boat and set off a fire cracker in it.
The risk to moral is not worth the potential profit of an extra escort that would only be to engage certain kinds of ships, and is basically useless in all other scenarios.
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
Well, it depends on numbers and availability, and also on what kind of surface threats you're seeing.
If your fleet gets only one pre-Jutland dreadnought shipgirl (e.g. South Carolina), keeping her home because she can't handle Abyssal battlecruisers of younger vintage, and because GRANDMA!, is reasonable.
On the other hand, if you've summoned most of your nation's historical line of battle, you have to find something for the oldsters to do, and acting as surface warfare support for a convoy escort that would otherwise consist entirely of destroyers and a cruiser or two makes at least some sense. This is historically what the British did with the Revenges during World War Two for instance, even though their ability to handle a modern battleship like Tirpitz was very much an open question.
Similarly, it depends on whether the typical Abyssal surface threat consists of a representative sample of ships that were still active in the Second World War, ships that were active in the First World War, or both. We've seen in Belated Battleships a fair number of WWI dreadnought and pre-dreadnought ships of types that historically were scrapped by the WNT, and that one of the early dreadnoughts could cross swords with and have a fair chance of success.
If your fleet gets only one pre-Jutland dreadnought shipgirl (e.g. South Carolina), keeping her home because she can't handle Abyssal battlecruisers of younger vintage, and because GRANDMA!, is reasonable.
On the other hand, if you've summoned most of your nation's historical line of battle, you have to find something for the oldsters to do, and acting as surface warfare support for a convoy escort that would otherwise consist entirely of destroyers and a cruiser or two makes at least some sense. This is historically what the British did with the Revenges during World War Two for instance, even though their ability to handle a modern battleship like Tirpitz was very much an open question.
Similarly, it depends on whether the typical Abyssal surface threat consists of a representative sample of ships that were still active in the Second World War, ships that were active in the First World War, or both. We've seen in Belated Battleships a fair number of WWI dreadnought and pre-dreadnought ships of types that historically were scrapped by the WNT, and that one of the early dreadnoughts could cross swords with and have a fair chance of success.
PAGDTenno
Verified Warmind. Probably on fire.
- Location
- South Carolina
Nah, if it was Dresden it would be "every time an abyssal shows up in the Great Lakes, it mysteriously catches fire and explodes, followed by a tall, lanky man in a duster grumbling about how everything happens in Chicago."
Sir_Braazmiir
Tiefling Paladin
- Location
- Wherever I am
And shipgirl radar always crapping out around him.
Harry Leferts
Suave Shadow Cabal Kaiju
Actually, it might be more amazing if Shipgirl stuff doesn't crap out around him. Just for the BSOD.
PAGDTenno
Verified Warmind. Probably on fire.
- Location
- South Carolina
It wouldn't surprise me too much. WW2 electronics are really, really hardy. Plus he's always said that he has trouble with anything made after WW2.
- Location
- United States, EST
- Pronouns
- He/Him
The Dresdenverse magic system explicitly only applies the techbane effect to technology developed a little bit after the end of WWII, hence why he's able to drive around in an old Volkswagen Beetle. So yes, even discounting the fact that kanmusu are magic, there is no reason for their stuff to crap out around him or any other Dresdenverse wizards.
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
On the subject of Dresden-esque techbane...
I once had the idea of one particular DE-girl, Frederick Davis, having something out of the ordinary around those lines. Freddie's career during World War Two included a stint as a specialist EW ship jamming German radio-controlled glide bombs in the Mediterranean.
Freddie is not good for your WiFi signal.
I once had the idea of one particular DE-girl, Frederick Davis, having something out of the ordinary around those lines. Freddie's career during World War Two included a stint as a specialist EW ship jamming German radio-controlled glide bombs in the Mediterranean.
Freddie is not good for your WiFi signal.
Harry Leferts
Suave Shadow Cabal Kaiju
Yeah, but what happens if shipgirls from after WWII get summoned? It would be sort of hilarious for it to be expected for problems to happen... only nothing does and they have no issues.
Isn't his car usually falling apart though?