Hmm would they fit in the Mounts vacated by the bofors and would the ships power systems be able to handle it or would a full refit be required?
Yes, I assume yes, and I assume no; otherwise, it would likely have taken too long to outfit warships with them for it to be relevant against kamikaze attacks, which was the whole purpose of the development program being as accelerated as it was.
 
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Hmm would they fit in the Mounts vacated by the bofors and would the ships power systems be able to handle it or would a full refit be required?


Yes, following the game which has already introduced many weapons and planes that did not make it out of prototype both the Japanese Type5 40mm and the American 3"/50 and it was the mark 27, 33 and 34 came in two versions automatic and semi automatic should become available.

The American plan was for twin mounts 3"/50 to replace each quad 40mm, and single mounts to replace the twin mounts. The 3"/50 had a rate of fire between 45 and 50 rounds a minute of fire, with VT shells and the American radar fire control, then add in the still have the 5"/38 mounts the AA defense of American ships becomes pure murder. But the war ended before they got in to use and post war the cut down on the number of AA guns carried to reduce manning.
 
And against supersonic jets, of which there was increasing prevalence, their effectiveness was far lower.
Not to mention the threat of missiles, especially in the numbers the russian forces could deploy. Like subsonic, and later supersonic, kamikazes that actually allowed the highly trained crews to live and fight another day.
 
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Kentucky: What kind of mother would I be without a family picture? Here's one of my darling Sacramento (Can't call her little, she's longer than Showboat) with her Aunts Missouri and Wisconsin...

 
As a random aside: I'm hoping the next USN battleship to come back will be Pennsylvania. Why her? She's none other than Arizona's sole sister ship, who served with distinction throughout WW2. She was at Pearl Harbor at the time of the attack, and saw her sister explode into a smoking pile of collapsed superstructure poking out of the water. Near the end of the war, a torpedo bomber slipped through detection and hit Pennsylvania in her aft with a torpedo while she was sitting in harbor, badly damaging her--but she managed to contain it and limp back to drydock for enough repairs to later be used for Operation Crossroads.

Because that's a reunion that needs to happen. You can imagine the anguish Pennsylvania would carry throughout the war, after what happened--the very traumatic loss of her sister right in front of her at the very beginning of the war, and her carrying on throughout the entire war regardless. At one point, Pennsylvania had earned the nickname "Old Falling Apart"--so named because of the sheer amount of shells she was putting out to bombard targets ashore for amphibious operation after amphibious operation, making her look like she was falling apart from the smoke and steel coming out of her (indeed, she needed to get her guns re-bored because she had worn them so badly from so much firing). You can easily extrapolate the emotional implications of that, but the name itself also speaks volumes in the context of kanmusu, no?

For added feels: Arizona was brutally murdered in the first minutes of the war, her guns never firing a shot in anger. Pennsylvania would receive the Navy Unit Citation for continuous service throughout nearly all major amphibious operations in the Pacific Theater and almost absurdly relentless shore bombardment with her cannons throughout them.
 
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Good old Pennsy. There is a lot of potential in her, for sure. Something I really need to take advantage of myself, honestly.
 
Repost for repost gods.

I though of how to upgrade Jersey armor and TDS with barely any weigh penalty.

Cut her belt in half!

You see the Iowas belt armor goes all the way down. It tapers from being 12 inches thick to 4 at the bottom. The reason for this is because shells may hit the water right before her hull keep going then pen her and that part I think worked well enough. The problem here is that 4 inches of steel when hit with a torp would buckle, then spall (think of huge chunks of metal flying through the hull at speeds of fuck you shit) and crack letting water in.
Anyways my idea has it that you cut the belt at around where it starts to taper, say at eleven inches. From there you rebuild the TDS right, aka copy/paste a modified North Carolina one, with a slight thicker back plate, say two inches, to stop shells.

Now comes the fun part that considering what armor is for shipgirl's Jersey will love. You just cut out a shitload of weight because you more basically just cut the belt in half. Not even the new TDS will take that much weight. Now you have three pills options.

1) Leave it as is. For more speed!

2) Make the belt THICKER. You could probably add two, hell maybe four inches of armor to her belt and barely loss a knot of speed. How much you add depends on how thick you made the TDS backing plate. Label the holding bulkhead in picture.

3) Thicken up her armor deck, for obvious reasons.

How I know this? Look at their eighties refit. They gain over two thousand tons over the max weight of their WW2 fit out and didn't lose any speed. So a couple extra tons shouldn't hurt. Especially since it adding armor.

So thoughts?


Edit: Iowas displacement
  • 45,000 tons (Standard)
  • 52,000 tons (mean war service)
  • 57,000 tons (pre 1980s full load); 58,000 tons (post 1980s full load)
 
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Near the end of the war, a torpedo bomber slipped through detection and hit Pennsylvania in her aft with a torpedo while she was sitting in harbor, badly damaging her--but she managed to contain it and limp back to drydock for enough repairs to later be used for Operation Crossroads.
Not Quite US DC is Good but the damage she took not that good.
USS Aristaeus (ARB-1) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Patched Pennsy up enough that she could get home
 
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I don't think it'll work.

Multiple thin plates of armour don't have the same effect at stopping shells as a single thick plate. You can see from the comparisons here that really the only way to apply North Carolina style torpedo protection to an Iowa is going to be to widen her. Even if you don't add any mass that would slow her down. However if you don't add any extra mass then you're going to be more vulnerable to shell penetration below the waterline because you've thinned the individual armour layers so you can add more. More layers is good for absorbing explosions not so much for stopping hardened steel from having it's way with your boiler room.

Overall I'm sure that the Iowa was designed by people who were experts in their field. If it was that easy for them to increase the torpedo protection I'm sure they would have. The width restrictions for the Panama Canal play into things a bit but I don't think they're entirely to blame.
 
Repost for repost gods.

Anyways my idea has it that you cut the belt at around where it starts to taper, say at eleven inches. From there you rebuild the TDS right, aka copy/paste a modified North Carolina one, with a slight thicker back plate, say two inches, to stop shells.
If it weren't for the belt armor covering the third torpedo bulkhead, the Iowa's TDS would have been fine as it was. Strip off the lower belt, and you've got a fine TDS. As for protection against underwater shell hits (the reason for extending the belt down to the bottom), the best way to do that, on a ship with an existing internal belt, would be to add a waterline-and-below "patch" belt on the outer shell plating over the vitals, deep enough to catch most underwater shell hits, but shallow enough to be above torpedo hits (so that spalling doesn't compromise the inner torpedo bulkheads).

Now comes the fun part that considering what armor is for shipgirl's Jersey will love. You just cut out a shitload of weight because you more basically just cut the belt in half. Not even the new TDS will take that much weight. Now you have three pills options.

1) Leave it as is. For more speed!

2) Make the belt THICKER. You could probably add two, hell maybe four inches of armor to her belt and barely loss a knot of speed. How much you add depends on how thick you made the TDS backing plate. Label the holding bulkhead in picture.

3) Thicken up her armor deck, for obvious reasons.

How I know this? Look at their eighties refit. They gain over two thousand tons over the max weight of their WW2 fit out and didn't lose any speed. So a couple extra tons shouldn't hurt. Especially since it adding armor
Well, option 1 isn't an option--the ship was designed for that much weight along the belt, and thus would have excess buoyancy amidships if you didn't compensate for the removed weight--which means that there would be severe hogging stress on her hull that would put her at risk of breaking apart in heavy seas--and possibly even on glassy calm water.

So let's look at the other options. Step one is to see how much weight we've freed up. Jersey's belt armor is roughly 460 feet long (and I know that the precise length is really important, but this is quick back-of-the-napkin calculations), and the lower belt is 28 feet tall, inclined 19 degrees from vertical. This gives us a total square footage of armor removed of about 13,622 square feet. (I'm keeping all the decimal places in the math, but not listing them here.) The lower belt is 12.2" at the top and 1.62" at the bottom; assuming a constant rate of taper (as seen in the drawing), that means an average thickness of 6.91 inches. Class B armor plate weighs 40.9 pounds per inch thickness per square foot, so we're removing about 3,850,000 pounds of armor, equating to 1718.7 tons. Let's say we add an eight-foot-wide strake of 12.2" armor on the outer plating below the surface, to protect against underwater hits; that should weigh 819.75 tons, leaving us with essentially 899 tons to work with.

BuShips estimates indicate that a 1000-ton change in displacement for Jersey is good for a quarter-knot change in maximum speed, so no real value in not spending the remaining weight. I'm not going to try to work out the *precise* dimensions of her deck armor, but let's say that it averages about 100 feet wide for the full length of the belt, giving us 46,000 square feet of deck armor. That works out to being able to add a total of 1.07 inches of thickness to her deck armor--noting, of course, that an additional applique layer like this would have to be is only about 75% as effective as it would be if the same amount of metal went into a single thick piece of armor, so we gain the benefits of just over three-quarters of an inch of extra deck armor.

Honestly, the amount we gain from this might be best ignored, rather than unbalance Jersey's protection, and the weight instead be used to replace her Bofors with 3"/50RF mounts...

Also note that removing Jersey's lower belt would be major surgery, having her out of operation for months as they rip out all that Class B plate (or as she heals up from the twelve hours of surgery, if you prefer to think of it that way). At this point, she's too valuable for us to be able to afford to put her on the shelf that long for a major refit.
 
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Good old Pennsy. There is a lot of potential in her, for sure. Something I really need to take advantage of myself, honestly.

Well, obviously this isn't applicable to BellBat, but her Pacific characterization is kinda like Arizona's here. Except where Ari here seems just kinda strict, Pacific!Pennsy can come off as an outright jerk. She still has a good heart though, particularly towards Ari whom she is fiercely protective of for obvious reasons.
 
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Well, obviously this isn't applicable to BellBat, but her Pacific characterization is kinda like Arizona's here. Except where Ari here seems just just strict, Pacific!Pennsy can come off as an outright jerk. She still has a good heart though, particularly towards Ari whom she is fiercely protective of for obvious reasons.
Hmm... I can say that should ever Pennsy enter the fray, she's not going to mirror Pacific's version if I'm the one penning her. I can't speak for anyone else however.
 
Hmm... I can say that should ever Pennsy enter the fray, she's not going to mirror Pacific's version if I'm the one penning her. I can't speak for anyone else however.

Given that she's Ari's sister, I'd say it's inevitable.

As an aside: do we know which of the Kido Butai can claim responsibility for the bomb which sank Ari historically? If it's Kaga or Akagi, a little meeting between Ari and them could make for awkwardness. If it's one of the other four... Well, obviously we'd have to wait for them to show-up.
 
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As an aside: do we know which of the Kido Butai can claim responsibility for the bomb which killed Ari? If it's Kaga or Akagi, a little meeting between Ari and them could make for awkwardness. If it's one of the other four... Well, obviously we'll have to wait for them to show-up.
Bombs from Kaga's aircraft hit Arizona from amidships to stern. It was a plane from Hiryuu that dropped the fatal bomb that detonated Arizona's forward magazines.
 
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Given that she's Ari's sister, I'd say it's inevitable.
*plotplotplot*
As an aside: do we know which of the Kido Butai can claim responsibility for the bomb which sank Ari historically? If it's Kaga or Akagi, a little meeting between Ari and them could make for awkwardness. If it's one of the other four... Well, obviously we'd have to wait for them to show-up.
If the omni wiki is to be believed, its either Kaga or Hiryuu. And from the descriptions and locations of impact, I'm inclined to believe it was one of Hiryuu's that landed the killing blow.

And Wash'd.

EDIT: Or should it be Albie'd? We have two ninjas here.

DOUBLE EDIT: Because we need something cute.
 
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Given that she's Ari's sister, I'd say it's inevitable.
Speaking of Pearl Harbour.
TheJMPer teased that next american ship will be St. Louis (CL-49).
Given her record during the attack
At 7:56, Japanese planes were sighted by observers on board St. Louis. Within minutes, the ship was at general quarters, and her operable anti-aircraft guns were manned and firing on the attackers. By 8:06, preparations for getting underway had begun. At about 8:20, one of the cruiser's gun crews shot down its first Japanese torpedo plane. By 9:00, two more Japanese aircraft had joined the first. At 9:31, St. Louis moved away from the pier and headed for South Channel and the open sea. 15 minutes later, her 6 in (150 mm) guns, whose power leads had been disconnected, were in full operating order.
Will she as kanmusu have god-tier quick-draw skills?
 
I don't think it'll work.

Multiple thin plates of armour don't have the same effect at stopping shells as a single thick plate. You can see from the comparisons here that really the only way to apply North Carolina style torpedo protection to an Iowa is going to be to widen her. Even if you don't add any mass that would slow her down. However if you don't add any extra mass then you're going to be more vulnerable to shell penetration below the waterline because you've thinned the individual armour layers so you can add more. More layers is good for absorbing explosions not so much for stopping hardened steel from having it's way with your boiler room.

Overall I'm sure that the Iowa was designed by people who were experts in their field. If it was that easy for them to increase the torpedo protection I'm sure they would have. The width restrictions for the Panama Canal play into things a bit but I don't think they're entirely to blame.
There's so much more to protection than just the thickness of armor plates.

Here:
Best Battleship: Underwater Protection
(Emphasis mine)
(Iowa:) Extremely good design, though not as wide as some. The carrying of the armor belt down to the hull bottom added strength, but the rigidity of the armor plate could possibly have caused sheer of the plate away from the hull bottom. Still, a very good design.


Yamato's system suffered from ineffective joins between the lower and upper armor belt. Her belt was penetrated by American air-dropped torpedoes which had warheads below her minimum designed explosive loadings. Not a very effective design for the weight.

The basic rating is a function of the standoff width in the system. I dinged Yamato for her defective joint structure, and for not using liquid-loaded tanks outboard. I dinged Bismarck for having a shallow belt, which directly contributed to a crucial underwater hit she took at the hands of Prince of Wales. I dinged King George V for her shallow belt and the fact that the top of her system was not bounded by deck armor, which directly contributed to the loss of the Prince of Wales. And I dinged Vittorio Veneto for defective seams, inability to take multiple hits in the same location, and being a real pain to repair, due to the curved bulkheads which comprised the system. And last, I upped Iowa's and SoDak' base ratings a point, because of her deep belt, and the very efficient usage of void and liquid-loaded tanks.

Additionally, Iowa's torpedo protection was more angled/slanted than Yamato's, meaning that more of the force is directed downwards and away from the hull--it makes it more effective for the amount of space it takes up. It's the same principle as slanted/sloped armor on tanks.

Worth noting is that the bad joints between the lower and upper armor belts of the Yamato-class came into play with their sinkings. Shinano, especially, was sunk by a mere four torpedoes, all of which dealt major damage right through her underwater protection. Yamato, well...she was capsized despite extensive damage control and counterflooding, due to torpedo hits. Given the sheer displacement, size, and number of bulkheads of the Yamato-class, they would inevitably take a long time to sink even after sustaining fatal damage--like what with happened with the Musashi.

As for armor:
Best Battleship: Armor
GENERAL COMMENTS: This was the most complex category in terms of trying to quantify and simplify a rating. After all, each of these vessels was designed to operate in a different anticipated threat environment than the others. Bismarck, for instance, was designed for combat in the North Atlantic. Her designers anticipated weather and visibility conditions such as had prevailed at Jutland in WWI. As a result, she was optimized for short-range, flat-trajectory combats. Her armor scheme reflects this, with an armor layout that makes it fantastically difficult to put a shell into her vitals at short range, but which is vulnerable to long-range fire, and which reduces the total amount of protected volume in the vessel by carrying her armor deck lower in the ship than her contemporaries. By the same token, Yamato was simply built to stand up to and utterly outclass any conceivable American or British opponent by sheer weight of gunfire, and elephant-like armor. As such, hers is a sort of 'brute force' approach to protection. Her armor layout isn't the most efficient, but she has a lot of armor, so it doesn't really matter. American and French battleships were designed to do more with less; with the South Dakota, for instance, being perhaps the best protected warship, pound-for-pound, ever built. One reason the Americans in particular came out with such good designs is that they could afford to. America poured tons of money into making the propulsion plants of their vessels more efficient, meaning that the resulting ships were relatively smaller and armor box correspondingly small. This, in turn, led to the ability to use the armor more heavily in the protected region. By the same token, American BBs, alone of contemporary battleship designs, had hull plating and interior works which were constructed entirely of Special Treatment Steel (STS), a very tough light armor steel, whereas contemporary designs usually reserved such steels for important splinter-proofing locales. The United States alone was capable of affording such extravagances.

I based my ratings extensively upon the work of Nathan Okun. From his paper detailing the usage of Bismarck's 15"/47 gun to shoot at all seven of 'The Contenduh's', I extracted a quantification of the total zones of vulnerability, for both deck and belt armor, of each of the seven ships. If you want the really gory details on how I did this, click here. Suffice it to say that I am surprised as you that Iowa has the most effective belt armor of the lot; I would have bet on Yamato any day. But Iowa's combination of an inclined belt, and a highly effective STS-steel shell plate outboard of the belt (which has just enough resistance to strip the AP cap off of an incoming shell) tips the score in her favor. Richelieu also had this same design, and very good protection as a result. Bismarck, despite the reputation of her side armor, fares very poorly in this category. From a deck armor perspective, Yamato comes out on top, followed closely again by Richelieu and Iowa. Vittorio Veneto is very vulnerable to high-angle fire, and Bismarck is as well. Yamato thus emerges as the best armored of the lot, followed closely by Iowa and Richelieu. This makes perfect sense to me, as Yamato also had the distinction of carrying the only armor plates which were completely impervious to any battleship weapon ever mounted afloat -- her 660mm turret faceplates. She was, indeed, an awesome beast. It makes the American and French feats of achieving protection within a hair as good, on much smaller displacements (particularly the South Dakota, which has the second smallest displacement of the seven warships detailed here), a very impressive feat as well. On the bottom of the heap, Vittorio Veneto and Bismarck were both penalized for their inability to cope with a long-range gun duel. Bismarck also suffered from the poorest belt armor of the lot.

Really, I recommend looking at the whole article, including the detail-pages elaborating on the ratings. It's fascinating stuff. Battleship Comparison
For instance, who knew that Richelieu had the best underwater protection of any battleship?

Or that Yamato's armor-faceplates for her turrets were literally impervious to even her own 18.1" guns?

Or that Vittorio Veneto's AA armament was flat-out terribad?
 
There's so much more to protection than just the thickness of armor plates.

Here:
Best Battleship: Underwater Protection
(Emphasis mine)


Additionally, Iowa's torpedo protection was more angled/slanted than Yamato's, meaning that more of the force is directed downwards and away from the hull--it makes it more effective for the amount of space it takes up. It's the same principle as slanted/sloped armor on tanks.

Worth noting is that the bad joints between the lower and upper armor belts of the Yamato-class came into play with their sinkings. Shinano, especially, was sunk by a mere four torpedoes, all of which dealt major damage right through her underwater protection. Yamato, well...she was capsized despite extensive damage control and counterflooding, due to torpedo hits. Given the sheer displacement, size, and number of bulkheads of the Yamato-class, they would inevitably take a long time to sink even after sustaining fatal damage--like what with happened with the Musashi.

As for armor:
Best Battleship: Armor


Really, I recommend looking at the whole article, including the detail-pages elaborating on the ratings. It's fascinating stuff. Battleship Comparison
For instance, who knew that Richelieu had the best underwater protection of any battleship?

Or that Yamato's armor-faceplates for her turrets were literally impervious to even her own 18.1" guns?

Or that Vittorio Veneto's AA armament was flat-out terribad?
I like that article, there's a lot of very interesting stuff presented in a nice, easily-digestible way. That said, I'm taking a few liberties in the margins here. There's always room for error in reports like that, and I'm messing around in that room to make a better story.
 
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