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An Extra Primarch

Should the Quest switch to a Narrative Base?

  • Yes, it will streamline things.

    Votes: 345 40.6%

  • No, I prefer the current system.

    Votes: 127 14.9%

  • Yes, but not until the Crusade begins/Prologue ends.

    Votes: 378 44.5%
  • Total voters
    850
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Damn, mods don't fuck around.
60 pages since that post, and it still got a warning a week later.

Also, @liujuin, were you the one who made those two drawings?
 
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Akasha said:
So, regarding blackboxing Crystals...

Why don't we just put one invention action into it, and have SERRAS decide if it's viable, since she knows far better than any of us if there's any point to furthering that research?

We'll get a description of her efforts and her results, and we'll see if there are levels to blackboxing Crystals like there are to all other fields of research. If there ARE such levels, that means blackboxing our Crystals HAS to be possible, and we'll be able to throw a whole bunch of actions at it the turn after that, to make sure no Tzeentch cultist gets its filthy tentacles on it.

That will dispel any doubts and keep us from potentially leaving our arguably most precious assets open to corruption and theft out of mistaken belief that blackboxing Crystals is impossible. It'll only cost us one free invention action, too. We have around FIFTY of those a turn.
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Well, it sort of depends?

Like, blackboxing one specific thing at a time might not work, at least not on a large scale, but we might be able to, say, ward a large scale area so Chaos can't see what's going on there and would have to have people remove stuff from the area or bring hte wards down for them to see/mess with the stuff?

So, like, maybe we do one action for each because it's approaching the problem from opposite directions, and one might work where the other doesn't?
 
Redknight said:
I'd defiantly support getting the combat perks since that is a major moral boost to our side and a major morale debut to our enemies. Also as our previous battle with the orks showed they do have morale and almost broke last time so I can defiantly see those perks being worth it.

Do keep in mind that we can't be everywhere at once, and those WAAAGH! are going to hit all at once. With the combat perks that moral effect will cover out entire polity and then some, so yeah i can see them being pretty useful.
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For the millionth time, us putting perks into other areas more than we already have is going to screw our development over long term and prevent us from getting the higher tier perks for Psyker and education. And as mention as well we have other ways to boost morale rather than wasting a ton of perk points to do the same exact thing. Us branching out into combat perks as well just means we are going to suck at everything else compared to the other Primarchs who were smart enough not to branch out too much.

Finally we have 15 damn turns, by then we likely would have just found combat oriented Primarchs who grabbed the combat perks and specialized in combat. Rather we focus on being the education and psy expert and let the combat Primarchs deal with the combat heavy stuff while we help with our own combat skills.
 
Akasha said:
So, regarding blackboxing Crystals...

Why don't we just put one invention action into it, and have SERRAS decide if it's viable, since she knows far better than any of us if there's any point to furthering that research?

We'll get a description of her efforts and her results, and we'll see if there are levels to blackboxing Crystals like there are to all other fields of research. If there ARE such levels, that means blackboxing our Crystals HAS to be possible, and we'll be able to throw a whole bunch of actions at it the turn after that, to make sure no Tzeentch cultist gets its filthy tentacles on it.

That will dispel any doubts and keep us from potentially leaving our arguably most precious assets open to corruption and theft out of mistaken belief that blackboxing Crystals is impossible. It'll only cost us one free invention action, too. We have around FIFTY of those a turn.
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Yeah, blackboxing the crystals is going to be difficult, for much the same reason that blackboxing fire or electricity would be difficult. The thing is, Daemons can't use them (save for those in their portfolio) because they lack the completeness of mind and soul found in mortals. Cultists, however, can. They have more trouble with crystals that aren't part of the purview of the god they worship, but they can make them.
 
Ild vote for that
We had like what 100000 orks on one waaaaggghh multiply by aminumum of nine my guess is around one or three million
 
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I am very partial to the notion of forming a kill fleet and sending it after individual Waaghs in order to keep them from gaining critical mass.
 
Again ild vote for that red bovine
Plus odds are with education and or Psy perks we could do massive damagae to a waagh field if we put actions into that and our workshop.
 
Red Bovine said:
For the millionth time, us putting perks into other areas more than we already have is going to screw our development over long term and prevent us from getting the higher tier perks for Psyker and education. And as mention as well we have other ways to boost morale rather than wasting a ton of perk points to do the same exact thing. Us branching out into combat perks as well just means we are going to suck at everything else compared to the other Primarchs who were smart enough not to branch out too much.

Finally we have 15 damn turns, by then we likely would have just found combat oriented Primarchs who grabbed the combat perks and specialized in combat. Rather we focus on being the education and psy expert and let the combat Primarchs deal with the combat heavy stuff while we help with our own combat skills.
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For the millionth time, it's 9 perks in a setting where the hard level limit is 1000, of which we barely reached 1/20th of. We don't give a damn about getting the Melee tree to Divine, so we won't waste the "ton of perks" you claim we'll be wasting. Moreover, it'll be a fight against nine major Waaaghs from ALL DIRECTIONS, at the same time. We can't be on all fields, at the same time. Neither can those nebulous Combat Primarchs you assume we'll be able to not only find, but also SL high enough and convince to join our polity, instead of starting their own, like Serras told Magnus to do. A fight like that, if we don't stay behind the lines for its entirety, should give us a SHITLOAD of experience. Nine perks to provide such a gigantic morale boost to our forces during that battle, as well as an equally giant debuff to the Orks' own morale, is WORTH IT. The sheer damage even one Waaagh can cause if we don't stop it is FAR WORSE than nine perks.

Hell, there's been talk about Orks making that commisar immortal because they believed he couldn't die. You know how you achieve something like that? You BREAK them. You fight them and you BREAK them to the point that even a war-obsessed race believes fighting you is pointless, because you can't die, or be stopped. Just the BASIC Melee Tree provides such a massive morale debuff that it might be able to do so on its own, if we fight on the frontlines and decapitate a bunch of Warbosses in front of their people. We neither want nor NEED anything more than the mastery of the basic field. Because, as the name says, it's BASIC.

Finally, THE QM EXPLICITLY SAID that the perks are DIFFERENT for everyone, with some unique exceptions(Biomancy tree, Technopathy tree, Willpower, etc.). Just because some other Primarchs specialize in combat doesn't mean they'll get a perk line that has immense morale buffs and debuffs for us and our enemies. Russ, for example, I'd bet has perks fully about his own, personal combat abilities, and not morale.
 
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Akasha makes good points but we simply cannot make ourselves the sole lynchpin because odds are chaos is gonna screw with us even more so maybe we send a few actions on a possible waaagggh detector after the waaagh disruptor than in game justify military increase and haul butt on titans and the like while expanding towards our brothers to see if the so far one planet per primarch except dorn and his phalanx or we get really lucky and it's big e if not than we see if the eldar are willing to let is room in the webway to evacuate civillians cause if they're dead we did nine waaagh for nothing
 
Akasha said:
For the millionth time, it's 9 perks in a setting where the hard level limit is 1000, of which we barely reached 1/20th of. We don't give a damn about getting the Melee tree to Divine, so we won't waste the "ton of perks" you claim we'll be wasting. Moreover, it'll be a fight against nine major Waaaghs from ALL DIRECTIONS, at the same time. We can't be on all fields, at the same time. Neither can those nebulous Combat Primarchs you assume we'll be able to not only find, but also SL high enough and convince to join our polity, instead of starting their own, like Serras told Magnus to do. A fight like that, if we don't stay behind the lines for its entirety, should give us a SHITLOAD of experience. Nine perks to provide such a gigantic morale boost to our forces during that battle, as well as an equally giant debuff to the Orks' own morale, is WORTH IT. The sheer damage even one Waaagh can cause if we don't stop it is FAR WORSE than nine perks.

Hell, there's been talk about Orks making that commisar immortal because they believed he couldn't die. You know how you achieve something like that? You BREAK them. You fight them and you BREAK them to the point that even a war-obsessed race believes fighting you is pointless, because you can't die, or be stopped. The Melee Tree provides such a massive morale debuff that it might be able to do so on its own, if we fight on the frontlines and decapitate a bunch of Warbosses.
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Simple solution without sending any perks, is to ensure our command structure is really good, can function on its own, and soldiers have supplies.

We have 2/3, so maybe every couple of years we do some kind of review or some kind of military exercise. Let's invite some of the trusted Alien races, so we can integrate them into the army. Thus, they are invested in the defense of the nation.
 
So we either safe gaurd our knowledge and beef up our allied forces and weather it on our own or were effed
 
Rjrulew said:
Akasha makes good points but we simply cannot make ourselves the sole lynchpin because odds are chaos is gonna screw with us even more so maybe we send a few actions on a possible waaagggh detector after the waaagh disruptor than in game justify military increase and haul butt on titans and the like while expanding towards our brothers to see if the so far one planet per primarch except dorn and his phalanx or we get really lucky and it's big e if not than we see if the eldar are willing to let is room in the webway to evacuate civillians cause if they're dead we did nine waaagh for nothing
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But we are NOT the sole lynchpin. The Melee Tree perks provide absurd buffs and debuffs, but they don't remove all others. Even if, hypothetically speaking, we were to suddenly teleport to Terra and abandon our polity, or if we were to die, there'd be still all the bonuses from the advances and lifestyle improvements we've made. It'll be less "the sole lynchpin is gone, everyone breaks and dies" and more "the leader is gone, fanaticism becomes hard determination to succeed". There are other lynchpins.

In fact, I dare say that focusing completely on education and psychic abilities is more liable to cause this problem. If we constantly keep pushing our polity's technological and psychic capabilities, its own capability at improving them will stagnate, since good Lady Serras will always provide better results faster than its own specialists. Then, if we vanish, we'll see the same thing that happened to the Imperium once the Emperor was put on the Golden Toilet. The drive is gone, Admech takes over, progress stagnates. Thus, we must make EVERY step we can to ensure we're NOT lost. That means improving our combat capabilities through skills, perks, wargear(which we should improve, by the way) and further psychic improvements.

However, at this time, I'm not interested in the Combat boost from the Melee perks, so much as I'm interested in the morale buffs and debuffs. Those are VAST, and they IGNORE the limits normal ways of improving/decreasing them, like life standards(max. is 210 - we've reached it).
 
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Akasha said:
For the millionth time, it's 9 perks in a setting where the hard level limit is 1000, of which we barely reached 1/20th of. We don't give a damn about getting the Melee tree to Divine, so we won't waste the "ton of perks" you claim we'll be wasting. Moreover, it'll be a fight against nine major Waaaghs from ALL DIRECTIONS, at the same time. We can't be on all fields, at the same time. Neither can those nebulous Combat Primarchs you assume we'll be able to not only find, but also SL high enough and convince to join our polity, instead of starting their own, like Serras told Magnus to do. A fight like that, if we don't stay behind the lines for its entirety, should give us a SHITLOAD of experience. Nine perks to provide such a gigantic morale boost to our forces during that battle, as well as an equally giant debuff to the Orks' own morale, is WORTH IT. The sheer damage even one Waaagh can cause if we don't stop it is FAR WORSE than nine perks.

Hell, there's been talk about Orks making that commisar immortal because they believed he couldn't die. You know how you achieve something like that? You BREAK them. You fight them and you BREAK them to the point that even a war-obsessed race believes fighting you is pointless, because you can't die, or be stopped. Just the BASIC Melee Tree provides such a massive morale debuff that it might be able to do so on its own, if we fight on the frontlines and decapitate a bunch of Warbosses in front of their people. We neither want nor NEED anything more than the mastery of the basic field. Because, as the name says, it's BASIC.

Finally, THE QM EXPLICITLY SAID that the perks are DIFFERENT for everyone, with some unique exceptions(Biomancy tree, Technopathy tree, Willpower, etc.). Just because some other Primarchs specialize in combat doesn't mean they'll get a perk line that has immense morale buffs and debuffs for us and our enemies. Russ, for example, I'd bet has perks fully about his own, personal combat abilities, and not morale.
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That's great it's also pretty much straight up irrelevant due to the way the XP system jumps in cost. We've seen what crushing a fairly large waauugh gave and it was peanuts in terms of XP. The moral debuff is also kinda tiny tbh a malus of 250 is essentially irrelevant and it consumes 9 frakking perks to get to that point when we're going to need those perks for the psy perk line.

Seriously, 250 morale bonus is NOT IMMENSE.

Enhanced Crystal Talismans. +50 to PDF rolls. +50% to production. +50 to morale rolls.
Basic Rune Library. You possess a number of large number of low-level runes, which allows for a large number of applications. +50 to PDF rolls. +50% to industrial production. +50 to morale rolls.
Extravagant Lifestyle. +210 to Morale rolls.
Growth Vats. +25 to morale rolls
Sixth-tier Time, Wisdom, Concealment, Purity, and Willpower crystals/Runes. +200% to industry. +100 to PDF rolls. +10 to morale.
Improved Medi-Gel. +50 to morale rolls.
Rune Arrangement (6).+150 to morale rolls.
Policy Established. +100 to morale rolls.
Petty STCs. +100 to morale rolls.
Largely Improved Education. +25 to morale rolls.


Total bonus from tech and policies 670 Morale.

+250 is irrelevant in the face of what we already have and what we can and will gain via innovation actions. Now can we table this ridiculousness.

Edit: The above isn't fully accurate corrections in my next post.
 
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SuperSonicSound said:
That's great it's also pretty much straight up irrelevant due to the way the XP system jumps in cost. We've seen what crushing a fairly large waauugh gave and it was peanuts in terms of XP. The moral debuff is also kinda tiny tbh a malus of 250 is essentially irrelevant and it consumes 9 frakking perks to get to that point when we're going to need those perks for the psy perk line.

Seriously, 250 morale bonus is NOT IMMENSE.

Enhanced Crystal Talismans. +50 to PDF rolls. +50% to production. +50 to morale rolls.
Basic Rune Library. You possess a number of large number of low-level runes, which allows for a large number of applications. +50 to PDF rolls. +50% to industrial production. +50 to morale rolls.
Extravagant Lifestyle. +210 to Morale rolls.
Growth Vats. +25 to morale rolls
Sixth-tier Time, Wisdom, Concealment, Purity, and Willpower crystals/Runes. +200% to industry. +100 to PDF rolls. +10 to morale.
Improved Medi-Gel. A healing paste which allows for the accelerated healing, or at least staunching, of wounds. +150 to Champion rolls. +75 to PDF rolls from eased treatment of injured soldiers. +50 to morale rolls.
Rune Arrangement (6).+150 to morale rolls.
Policy Established. +100 to morale rolls.
Petty STCs. +100 to morale rolls.
Largely Improved Education. +25 to morale rolls.


+250 is irrelevant in the face of what we already have and what we can gain via innovation actions. Now can we table this ridiculousness.
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That +250 is less +250 and more +885, because according to the QM, PERKS STACK. Moreover, they also provide an equal DEBUFF to all enemies WITHIN THE SECTOR AND NEARBY SECTORS. In comparison, +210 is the LIMIT to the morale boost a world can gain from improving its lifestyle to the equivalent of paradise. The only ridiculousness that needs to be tabled, is yours.

By the way, I can play with colors too, to underline my point.
Please, verify facts before you argue against them.
 
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Akasha said:
That +250 is less +250 and more +885, because according to the QM, PERKS STACK. Moreover, they also provide an equal DEBUFF to all enemies WITHIN THE SECTOR AND NEARBY SECTORS. In comparison, +210 is the LIMIT to the morale boost a world can gain from improving its lifestyle to the equivalent of paradise. The only ridiculousness that needs to be tabled, is yours.
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Combat: Melee: 60 Perk. Commanding Officer. . +10 to morale rolls for forces you command. Requires one of the preceding Melee Perks.
Combat: Melee: 80 Perk. Crusher. You are a supremely skilled fighter. Your mere presence nearby is demoralizing to the enemy. Malus of 10
Combat: Melee: 100 Perk. Champion. +25 to morale rolls
Combat: Melee: 120 Perk. Supreme Champion. +50 to morale rolls
Combat: Melee: 140 Perk. Ultimate Champion. +100 to Morale rolls
Combat: Melee: 160 Perk. Hero. +150 to Morale
Combat: Melee: 180 Perk. Superhero. +200 to Morale
Combat: Melee: 200 Perk. +250 to Morale

785 is the actual penalty and bonus given they stack, not 885. It's a lot more but it's not worth the bloody perk cost. Not when those same 9 perks are needed to finish the rest of the advanced psyker line and will give high thousands to low tens of thousands to combat and almost all our other skill checks. We've had nearly the same boost in morale to our civ purely from inventions that we've worked on as a side product almost all of the morale boosting effect of those bonuses is ancillary to their primary function and spending those perk points on areas that actually are our core focus will lead to the ability to generate massively higher morale boosts via reaching higher stage invention levels.

Where as the melee perk line is a dead end. You take it and the bonus sits there forever it doesn't grow further on its own, you take other perks and they have a constant effect via the massive improvement they provide to skill checks on innovation, or in actual situations and scenarios where the improved skill will make a difference. As our action economy grows larger the benefit of the improved skill checks matters more as they provide more and more relative benefit. Where as the boost to moral doesn't change and it's relative benefit drops over time as it becomes less and lesser a percentage of the total moral bonus we have.
 
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