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An Extra Primarch
- Thread starter ilbgar123
- Start date
Ihaxlikenoob
Dragon of Terror
Uh, Malal/Malice wants to destroy the entire universe in order to destroy the other Four, so pretty sure whatever tension you spoke of disappearing from the Chaos Gods simply shifted to Malice for future concerns, because y'know, budding EXISTENTIAL crisis.
It's not like they're completely helpless anyway, just because they may be dying a slow death a la 40k Imperium, doesn't prevent hail-mary's from being thrown at us while they're busy. Or have them develop solutions to their problem, as I don't believe they're completely inflexible here due to their inherent nature as they are depicted in other Quests/media.
- Location
- Uruguay
Well, if you pay attention to those 'wines', you would see that most aren't about the threat that heartess represents or how it is going to screw us over, but about how it doesn't fit with the WH atmosphere, how most of us didn't come for it, or how it makes things too easy.
Becuase it isn't 'another danger enters WH', it is 'the chaos lords now are to busy with Malal to do whatever they want, thus leaving you free from chaos intervention'.
Hell, the complaints started after asking why we haven't been attacked, and those asking to change Malal do so even knowing that doing so would bring the chaos gods upon us, though I already made a theory about that and how doing so could help the Chaos Gods render Malal harmless early on.
- Location
- From the moon
I'm just goi g to be honest here and say he only way for he heartless not to completely screw this quest over is if all t does for Malice or whatever his name is if all it does is makes him another contender in the game and the chaos gods are still a threat.
Edit: Actually it might be best to just drop the heartless concept as it is. Kind of dropped the ball on this one. This really should of been something we learn IC and not with an author spoiler.
Edit: Actually it might be best to just drop the heartless concept as it is. Kind of dropped the ball on this one. This really should of been something we learn IC and not with an author spoiler.
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Enerael
We Shall Wake to Sanity
I have never played KH, but arent Heartless immortal multiverse eating self replicating monsters?!
This is not about Malal getting a boost, this is about our entire universe being sentenced to nonexistance.
There are consequences, and there is making warhammer setting far, far worse. I reapeat. Making Warhammer 40k worse.
They literarily cant, if they arent in their domain, and have very little use for those that are. Also, they might well be incapable of making any Crystal due to their chaotic nature (Crystals are stable concepts).
Again, immortal multiverse eating self replicating monsters.
Its both, and its making exactly nothing easier, unless we get very lucky indeed.
Because only in that post was further crossover with KH beyond the incident which never happened revealed.
I would much rather face a Warp Horror invasion then for there to be a single heartless more in our universe ever again after the Incident.
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King Arthur
The Once and Future King
Have we considered that maybe the whole Malal thing is just the GM trying to find a logical reason why Chaos can't attack us that isn't just "their impotent."
Cause, like, take a moment to think about it from the GM's perspective. We are doing all this crazy stuff that should be pissing off Chaos enough to make them want us dead yesterday .... and yet they can't actually do anything but 40K is the type of series where if you say Chaos isn't strong enough everyone whines about it.
I mean, we have every planet warded to hell and back, almost every piece of tech, especially the important ones, and a huge chunk of the population but especially the important people all with an objectively huge amount of powerful protections against Chaos. To say it would be hard for Chaos to influence our planets is an understatement, and they can't even throw up any Warp Storms to slow us down cause we can just calm em easily, and even if it did work Tzeentch probably saw that in the future if it happened we'd just invent FTL giving them even fewer chances to get to us cause we can just skip the Warp when we travel.
Chaos has essentially no active forces yet as the Horus Heresy which got them forces in the Materium didn't happen yet, they are trying to get planets under their control but that takes a long time and we destroy their cults instantly whenever we find one of their planets. The only polities in the Galaxy that are even strong enough to effect things on even a Sector level scale yet are us, the Eldar, and the Ork's, and all three of us are pretty immune to Chaos manipulations.
So, yeah, have we considered that this is the GM just watching his own ass? Just protecting himself by saying "yeah, the reason Chaos hasn't come at you despite you making moves that seriously weaken them in the long term is because there are more important problems, clearly not because they can't do anything for a long time and the soonest they could manage a serious move against you is multiple decades down the line that you could probably stop before it ever becomes a problem anyway."
Cause, like, take a moment to think about it from the GM's perspective. We are doing all this crazy stuff that should be pissing off Chaos enough to make them want us dead yesterday .... and yet they can't actually do anything but 40K is the type of series where if you say Chaos isn't strong enough everyone whines about it.
I mean, we have every planet warded to hell and back, almost every piece of tech, especially the important ones, and a huge chunk of the population but especially the important people all with an objectively huge amount of powerful protections against Chaos. To say it would be hard for Chaos to influence our planets is an understatement, and they can't even throw up any Warp Storms to slow us down cause we can just calm em easily, and even if it did work Tzeentch probably saw that in the future if it happened we'd just invent FTL giving them even fewer chances to get to us cause we can just skip the Warp when we travel.
Chaos has essentially no active forces yet as the Horus Heresy which got them forces in the Materium didn't happen yet, they are trying to get planets under their control but that takes a long time and we destroy their cults instantly whenever we find one of their planets. The only polities in the Galaxy that are even strong enough to effect things on even a Sector level scale yet are us, the Eldar, and the Ork's, and all three of us are pretty immune to Chaos manipulations.
So, yeah, have we considered that this is the GM just watching his own ass? Just protecting himself by saying "yeah, the reason Chaos hasn't come at you despite you making moves that seriously weaken them in the long term is because there are more important problems, clearly not because they can't do anything for a long time and the soonest they could manage a serious move against you is multiple decades down the line that you could probably stop before it ever becomes a problem anyway."
Enerael
We Shall Wake to Sanity
At this point in time the Four cant muster fleets or just cause a daemonic invasion (without cults to invite them with a mass sacrifice, and we dont have much of a cult problem), especially with our wards, without expending a good portion of their power.
So they have to be subtle and play the long game.
Also, keep in mind that they forced open Empses wards recently to scatter the Primarchs, so they are probably pretty drained right now.
Divination countermeasures are part of my plan for a very good reason.
Also, any alternative FTL will almost certainly be slow as snails comparatively.
Ecactly, though I wouldnt call us immune.
We need to improve our anti-chaos stuff soon. We havent worked on it for a while.
Good of him, but the Heartless are worse then multiple daemon invasion by far.
If this was the intent, then thank you QM for trying, but please get rid of them.
- Location
- California
As someone distant from both sides of the conflict, I feel compelled to levy my ultimately worthless opinion. The idea of Malal and the heartless is locking the other Chaos forces into a mostly self-contained conflict for, presumably, a Very long time is a bit weird for the W40k setting and means less Interesting smaller developments and complications for another Final Boss instead which is a bit... Boring. There's a bunch of those and will likely only result in a slug match a long time from now. Again, boring, and pretty unsatisfactory narratively speaking.
However, a lot of the things in this quest that I find to be the most interesting, the conceptual Runes and Crystals, stem from KH. It's a huge boon, provides an actual viable way to WIN against Chaos, and provides many more interesting things to encounter/ create etc.
As for the people saying the new status quo is a result of the triple crit fail, and/or as recompense for having the nerve to crit the loot roll, I think the logic your using is strange and would appreciate clarification. In my mind, the only affect of the triple crit fail was the initial Heartless incursion on the space hulk, and the fact that (if we didn't take care of it right then and there) would've spelt the end of the universe. Except we Did stop it, and thus: Crises Averted. We shouldn't really need to keep dealing with it except maybe as an option for future crit fails (the triple fail having made it Easier for heartless incursion to happen, but it shouldn't be the tether/connection/route to W40K that it seems to be now)
Also, saying the PC should be punished for benefitting from a crit fail, when we crit succeeded the loot roll, goes totally against anything I've ever seen in a quest
The crit fail caused an instance of 'if we lose here, all of existence will be destroyed' and we faced it and conquered it. The stakes were high if we failed but we didn't, and I don't think it should be lingering so much
However, a lot of the things in this quest that I find to be the most interesting, the conceptual Runes and Crystals, stem from KH. It's a huge boon, provides an actual viable way to WIN against Chaos, and provides many more interesting things to encounter/ create etc.
As for the people saying the new status quo is a result of the triple crit fail, and/or as recompense for having the nerve to crit the loot roll, I think the logic your using is strange and would appreciate clarification. In my mind, the only affect of the triple crit fail was the initial Heartless incursion on the space hulk, and the fact that (if we didn't take care of it right then and there) would've spelt the end of the universe. Except we Did stop it, and thus: Crises Averted. We shouldn't really need to keep dealing with it except maybe as an option for future crit fails (the triple fail having made it Easier for heartless incursion to happen, but it shouldn't be the tether/connection/route to W40K that it seems to be now)
Also, saying the PC should be punished for benefitting from a crit fail, when we crit succeeded the loot roll, goes totally against anything I've ever seen in a quest
The crit fail caused an instance of 'if we lose here, all of existence will be destroyed' and we faced it and conquered it. The stakes were high if we failed but we didn't, and I don't think it should be lingering so much
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The thing is that they shouldn't really need to invade again. Just for someone to mess with dark crystals enough to make one.
I'm not all that familiar with KH myself, but I was talking about Malice himself. Not the Heartless. Just as we don't have to make a Keyblade to benefits from our encounter, Malice doesn't have to use the Heartless and could in fact be unable to since the ones that were in our universe were killed - he could have just learned something that enabled him to get more powerful, making him more able to actually do stuff instead of being stuck as a minor Chaos God who doesn't really matter in the big picture. Doesn't mean it has to be at a level to make him the end boss, just that as a consequence he's found something that lets him actually matter to the setting rather than being more of a footnote.
Making ones in their domain was what I was talking about. I also am not sure why they wouldn't be useful to them, given that they give boosts to things. A cult to Tzeentch could start making a bunch of crystals that were for concepts that are in Tzeentch's domain, empowering their use of thematically appropriate powers granted by Tzeentch through their own talismans, or perhaps making it easier for Tzeentch-based Chaos corruption to spread within their area of effect. And the Chaos Gods themselves don't even necessarily have to be the ones to figure out how to do it - if one of the psykers who have been taught to do is falls to Chaos at some point, they could just ensure the knowledge spreads to other cults. If we're making crystals on a massive scale, it's pretty much inevitable that some enemy or another is going to find out how to make them too, even with our security precautions.
I didn't say the PC should be punished for anything - Serras won the fight and found some awesome stuff, and I have no issues with that. I'm just talking about maintaining some kind of balance to ensure the quest actually provides some challenge. If the crystals gotten from the critical success means that Chaos becomes too easy to defeat, then we might as well just get an epilogue right now and end things.
King Arthur
The Once and Future King
Well, we have and we haven't.
We invented Cogitators which are specifically computers that are more protected against Chaos, and then we took more actions to further improve that protection. We invented Psychic batteries that further protect our Psykers by making them less likely to accidentally draw upon Chaos, and the choirs and and better training and tools that we developed probably help too.
Further, most of our anti-Chaos stuff are Crystals and Runes, so by strengthening our Crystals and Runes we are indirectly improving our anti-Chaos stuff. The Willpower and Purity Crystals that we specifically worked on are some of our more potent anti-Chaos stuff.
I do get what you are saying in that we haven't specifically taken an action with the sole purpose of protecting the people at large from Chaos, but we have helped it along with other actions and we have taken actions to specifically protect computers and Psykers from them.
- Location
- California
Chaos is not easy to beat even with Crystals, what chaos Is, is Possible to beat with Crystals. I had no clue, and I doubt most did either, about how to go about winning against Chaos, now I actually think we can
Enerael
We Shall Wake to Sanity
By WoG he is learning Darkness lore, which means heartless now or in the near future.
The Crystals need power invested in them to make, they are not ex nihilo. What the Four would be doing to make them is wrapping up their power in a crystal shaped package stable in the materium. It would not empower them.
I am well aware, what I am concerned about at this point are a concentrated effort to corrupt our people (hard with our wards and stuff, but NOT impossible) and a full out daemon invasion.
We have certainly given them reasons to try.
And some of our main anti-chaos tech, such as the Null Runes and the detection net, or even protection for our family from chaos corruption (i remember something about QM warning to make sure our siblings are protected?) we have not worked on in a while.
For people saying that Crystals gave us the ability to kill the Four: they didnt.
We could always have done that. For one, our Runes were helped a lot by the Crystals, but we could have made them without them, it would just be harder.
Plenty of other ways too.
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- Location
- Little Rock, AR
I don't really get the issue people have with the Kh situation. All it has done is out a delay on our egress and set up and even steeper deadline and that's very war hammer as it comes to thing. Orcs and the worry of the Krork are still a thing. Possible Commoragh elder are issues. We can still wake up tomb worlds.
We have fewer suddenly cult bomb on our worlds but that just means they can get desperate else where and we deal heartless too. Like Daemon plus.
It's even interesting in that it's a threat that can do the impossible. Make chaos more than one note and allow for actual compromises. We literally got to side with chaos and walk away without getting fucked. That was cool.
We have fewer suddenly cult bomb on our worlds but that just means they can get desperate else where and we deal heartless too. Like Daemon plus.
It's even interesting in that it's a threat that can do the impossible. Make chaos more than one note and allow for actual compromises. We literally got to side with chaos and walk away without getting fucked. That was cool.
- Location
- Uruguay
Sure, but what he comes up with could be something other than Heartless. Could be his own unique, original horror that we'll end up dealing with rather than the Heartless.
First off, the Chaos Gods don't strictly have to make them themselves. A Chaos psyker who knows how to make crystals could use their own power, just like any of our psykers do. They would instead just make crystals that resonated with the domains of their respective gods, likely using combinations of such crystals for larger/stronger effects.
Second, even if the Chaos Gods invested power to make crystals themselves, it wouldn't necessarily be a bad investment if they could find uses for them that would net a return on that investment.
- Location
- New Mexico
Hm, maybe I'd better make it explicit, but we could ensoul the AI before installing it in the Titan, and scan it before hand, not-installing it should the AI have corruption. (Besides which, as a C&C [Command & Control] unit it's about communications and coordination on the battlefield, not weapons; meaning it's our 'radio-man' and making our Titan a mobile HQ.)
-- Exactly!Also, it opens up some interesting possibilities, like the Quarians: a technomancy race! (If we become Omnissiah we could have a great position for them in the Mechanicus, if not, we could use them as subject-matter experts for Technomancy when we build our Psyker-College.)
Which is part of why making a Warlord Titan makes sense: it's be great for clearing Orks out of an area and/or directing troops on the battlefield.
Yeah, I don't think that's going to last: I suspect that his "learning darkness" is an exponential power-up, meaning that once it starts ramping-up it just won't stop.
Apologies
- Location
- Peterborough, NH, USA
Okay, I'll be honest. I was indeed 'covering my ass' and I put in forward an event-chain to do so that I thought sounded cool, but may have been taking the crossover too far in retrospect. So! Voting time.
[ ] Keep Malice as End Boss. Malice will continue to amass power and begin taking over the Eye/Maelstrom. Potential end-game alliance of all other factions against him. Potential for large outbreaks of Heartless across galaxy from Malice cults, which will act like a hybrid of Daemon Incursions and Ork attacks.
[ ] Upgraded Malice. While Malice grows stronger, he is merely a peer to the Four, as he has concern over having his existence overtaken by the Darkness he's calling upon. Chaos Four become Chaos Five, with all that implies.
[ ] Sealed Away. The Four cooperate long enough to seal Malice away. Chaos Gods start nudging large quantities of Orks and similar threats towards you in 5 Turns. Xenos polities have a far higher chance of becoming hostile and/or Chaos corrupted.
I'll give you until noon on Monday to vote.
[ ] Keep Malice as End Boss. Malice will continue to amass power and begin taking over the Eye/Maelstrom. Potential end-game alliance of all other factions against him. Potential for large outbreaks of Heartless across galaxy from Malice cults, which will act like a hybrid of Daemon Incursions and Ork attacks.
[ ] Upgraded Malice. While Malice grows stronger, he is merely a peer to the Four, as he has concern over having his existence overtaken by the Darkness he's calling upon. Chaos Four become Chaos Five, with all that implies.
[ ] Sealed Away. The Four cooperate long enough to seal Malice away. Chaos Gods start nudging large quantities of Orks and similar threats towards you in 5 Turns. Xenos polities have a far higher chance of becoming hostile and/or Chaos corrupted.
I'll give you until noon on Monday to vote.
- Location
- florida
[ ] Keep Malice as End Boss. Malice will continue to amass power and begin taking over the Eye/Maelstrom. Potential end-game alliance of all other factions against him. Potential for large outbreaks of Heartless across galaxy from Malice cults, which will act like a hybrid of Daemon Incursions and Ork attacks.
Yes. Heartless and demons. Fun times.
Yes. Heartless and demons. Fun times.
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- Location
- Somewhere, probably Earth
[x] Sealed Away. The Four cooperate long enough to seal Malice away. Chaos Gods start nudging large quantities of Orks and similar threats towards you in 5 Turns. Xenos polities have a far higher chance of becoming hostile and/or Chaos corrupted.
Mostly because this is how I feel it'd actually go. The Four can get their shit together if something presents a serious threat to all of them.
Mostly because this is how I feel it'd actually go. The Four can get their shit together if something presents a serious threat to all of them.
- Location
- Sweden
[x] Sealed Away. The Four cooperate long enough to seal Malice away. Chaos Gods start nudging large quantities of Orks and similar threats towards you in 5 Turns. Xenos polities have a far higher chance of becoming hostile and/or Chaos corrupted.
- Location
- United States
[X ] Upgraded Malice. While Malice grows stronger, he is merely a peer to the Four, as he has concern over having his existence overtaken by the Darkness he's calling upon. Chaos Four become Chaos Five, with all that implies.
The Froggy Ninja
The Blade Will Never Die
[X] Upgraded Malice