You are correct, autoloaders were invented early in the WH40K universe's human history. But then, in M25, the Men of Iron rebelled, and mankind's automated weapons turned against them. The survivors remembered this and made rules about things like automation. Namely, don't do it. If you have to, then minimize the automation and ensure strict control over machines.
An Extra Primarch
- Thread starter ilbgar123
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I don't remember giving the mechanicus this much free reign over our technology. The mechanicus should not have the ability to dictate what we design. If a single human life is lost above what is nessicary due to technophobia, then not good. I don't want them to have that much control, and I will vote to reign them in.
Edit: maybe in 40k, the mechanicus is entrenched enough to dissapear random citizens. However. Most world's have only been in contact for approximately 10 years, and the main common denominator would be thenus and lady serras. The mechanicus is fragmented and in it's early stages.
Manual reloading is fluff from 40k to show how far humanity has fallen. You say that turrets have powered aiming systems. A hypothetical chaos could hack the aiming systems, and cause friendly fire using Las weapons or plasma, two weapons that do not need to be reloaded. They just need a power feed to the core. They could do more damage than a manually loaded macrocannon.
Edit:imagine the havoc a chaos possessed replicator could get up to. We are passed the point of automation.
We are not signatories to the treaty of Olympus mons, and we have not given up everything to the mechanicus. The mechanicus plays second fiddle to us, and Thernus did not have techpriests when we grew up. They had sciences and engineering, and they currently have the most advanced science and engineering. Our home collages and design boards dictate our technology, not whatever drips and drabs the mechanicus sees fit to release to us mortals.
If we are letting the mechanicus drag us down, what are we getting out of the arrangement? We simply do not need them.
I do not believe that the mechanicus is a compelling enough faction for us to purposely hobble ourselves. Autoloaders are cold war tech.
I'm not asking for a completely automated turret. Have a bunch of crewmen aiming the gun, with lots of manual interlocks. Look at a modern tank turret. The Gunner selects which type of shell, the robot loads it far faster than a human, and seals the breach. Then the Gunner aims and fires, then the robot reloads.
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Dude we don't give a single shit for what mechanicus thinks for our tech. See all of our turns we did what ever we want. We don't limit ourselves to what mechanicus wants. We designed these ships so we also designed all these systems and WE DON'T CARE about mechanicus views. We literally created shit like replicators that are a billion time more dangerous then autoloaders. So I don't see your point. Automation is a thing we have that mechanicus candidate do anything about.we have drone ships so I doubt autoloaders are a problem.
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You seem to be treating the mechanicus as a monolithic entity. At the current time they are fragmented. Ghennix, the planet allied to the transformers is going to have very different attitudes towards automation than Mars, which fights against robots from the depths.
I think that we have a more merit based design system, not relying on scraps from the mechanicus. If we don't, I'm going to support the emperor wiping out all religions, starting with the Omnisiah.
Your fic makes perfect sense if you assume the ship is very old, using outdated tech. We have at least Halo level tech.
Anywho, I'm writing an omake for Ghennix drive yards, and we are going to be designing a subcorvette. Basicly an ultraheavy fighter. The Bolo of fighters. It will be similar to the game "dreadnaught" with an equivalent tech level. If the mechanicus wants to get thier hands on these god machines they can change thier belife.
I think that we have a more merit based design system, not relying on scraps from the mechanicus. If we don't, I'm going to support the emperor wiping out all religions, starting with the Omnisiah.
Your fic makes perfect sense if you assume the ship is very old, using outdated tech. We have at least Halo level tech.
Anywho, I'm writing an omake for Ghennix drive yards, and we are going to be designing a subcorvette. Basicly an ultraheavy fighter. The Bolo of fighters. It will be similar to the game "dreadnaught" with an equivalent tech level. If the mechanicus wants to get thier hands on these god machines they can change thier belife.
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- UK
Modern autoloaders require minimal computer power, and certainly nothing on the level of a dreaded 'Abominable Intelligence'. If the Adeptus Mechanicus outlawed them, it would be like outlawing elevators or toasters. Obviously if a rogue machine spirit sabotaged them that would be bad, but the same goes for any other component in a ship. If they aren't used, I think it's simply because those designs have been lost and because all innovation is stifled, rather than because the Adeptus Mechanicus frowns on their very concept.
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There are a few youtube channels that did fan duel stuff to varying degrees of interesting and cringiness.
Given the responses I'm getting, I'll respond in a consolidated post.
I AM NOT saying we can't innovate unless the Mechanicum allows it. I am not saying that the Mechanicum wouldn't likely go along with what we do. Nor am I suggesting the Mechanicum act in a hive-mind.
What I am saying, however, is that for all the variety in Forge-worlds we see, they do follow certain rules. One of those concerns automation. We don't have to create literal Abominable Intelligences to make the Mechanicum wary of what we do. The Mechanicum knows the machine spirit has to handle some things on the ship, but they try to isolate and minimize these systems because all it takes is a bit of scrap-code, or the machine spirit not being satisfied with us, and the ship could be catastrophically destroyed, or worse, turned on other ships. A machine spirit that rebelled and tried to spread to other ships would be a literal nightmare for the Mechanicum, one they would fight tooth-and-nail to prevent.
It doesn't even need to be that our weapons can aim at us. The machine spirit could make those weapons heat up or destroy the energy containers, or something along those lines. Then you have a destroyed gun or possibly even a hull breach.
That said, we can do Mechanicum integration actions and innovate on things like auto-loaders ourselves. But this would be an action we have to take ourselves, not something we can assume is already widespread. I imagine the Mechanicum would be amenable to what we want if we put on Holy runes or other anti-warp runes in the cogitators to prevent scrap-code attacks.
Yes, but it does take effort, which is my point. We have to work with Mechanicum politics to do what we want, otherwise they might start not building what we want.
Dude my post literally say we don't care what the mechanicas think or have rules about. WE DON'T CARE WHAT THEY WANT. Like we do what we want and the mechanicas can only react not do anything.
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Lone Courier 6
Devilish Fool
- Location
- United States of Quests
Jesus fucking christ, calm down you guys, it's a stylistic choice made by an author who likes that aesthetic, get off his ass.
You're mistaken, it does matter what they think. It hasn't come up yet because we've taken the integration actions, but the Mechanicum rules the Forge-worlds we use to create ship, vehicles, and guns. If you truly want to ignore what they say and order them around, you'll eventually have to conquer the Forge-worlds themselves, because the Mechanicus can and will rebel should you try to directly shirk their rules.
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The thing is, the mechanicus is not widespread either. Neither are them powerful. The mechanicus as of right now is maybe 10 years old. They don't have 10k years of institution behind them in order to crush technological development. The mechanicus is simply one of the many religions inside our polity. They are not state sanctioned. They have no legal mechanism to crush fledgling designs. They can't just BLAM heretek! anybody who innovates. How would the mechanicus stiffle innovation without pissing off Serras?
Ghennix is probably designing autoloaders out the ass. Remnant is designing autoloaders out the ass. Once we find the ace combat world, they will have autoloaders. Any world that has an scientific culture, and is past the atomic age is making this.
Right. I like flying space cathedrals as much as the next guy, but despotic theocratic totalitarianism has no place in this quest. There is an easy cop out, where he could say that the ships are very old. On thier last legs, a relic from a bygone era. Get to keep the anachronistic bits by saying that they are on the way out the door.
Replicators are new, and a forgeworld dosent have any particular advantage compared to any other. We only gave out replicators to world's that we like, meaning world's with a minimum of engineering culture.
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Ok I didn't think of that sorry. Great omake.
Deleting my response.
We may have proper shipyards, but as far as I am aware, they are around only a few planets. The Forge-worlds are the only worlds which produce the bigger ships in the numbers we want in a timely manner. And they're not revolting over auto-loaders because we haven't made those yet. If we unilaterally order them to do it, it would make them grumble at least a bit. We don't hold Omnissiah status (though I understand the other questers are aiming for that).
The Mechanicum is young in the sense of having been united with the creation of the Bastion, but the worlds and culture are probably at least 1000 years old, if not dating back to the Age of Technology. They hold power by virtue of having the highest knowledge base, which we're expanding. And the question of not being state-sanctioned is meaningless, because it's the default religion on any forge-world. In addition, we can't ban that religion without incurring serious resentment from them. It's true that Serras is highly regarded by the Mechanicum. But highly regarded is not the same as Omnissiah-status or something equivalent.
Also, the number of worlds with auto-loaders doesn't matter in this case because spaceships and many higher forms of technology are guarded closely by the Mechanicus. They aren't going to adapt local auto-loaders into their systems unless they're STC based.
And replicators are helpful, but they just replicate the body of the machine. In most cases, that are enough, but for highly advanced technology, like ships or titans, we can't replicate the machine spirit as well, though I may be remembering that wrong. The Mechanicum would be necessary to maintain these machines, or at the very least, the machine spirits.
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Why do you draw the line at autoloaders and not say... Elevators? What is so dangerous about autoloaders that puts it in a category of it's own.
Energy weapons don't need to be reloaded, so they can be fired without human loaders.
The future I envision does not have slaves loading macrocannons
My ideal future dosent have that.
How the hell do you even convince people to work in those conditions when the other option is living on a UBI stripend? We are post scarcity. People only work if they want to. All the 40k fluff talks about the high mortality rate among the press ganged crew. Frankly, that's not an enticing prospect. Some random would wonder why they don't hook up a winch or whatever.
Energy weapons don't need to be reloaded, so they can be fired without human loaders.
The future I envision does not have slaves loading macrocannons
How the hell do you even convince people to work in those conditions when the other option is living on a UBI stripend? We are post scarcity. People only work if they want to. All the 40k fluff talks about the high mortality rate among the press ganged crew. Frankly, that's not an enticing prospect. Some random would wonder why they don't hook up a winch or whatever.
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- Europe
In my opinion the thing about scrapcode and Chaos-infestations getting into guns and weapon systems is not that much of a problem, because of the runes and crystals being integrated and preventing majority of such cases. Although I don't quite remember how widespread this is; are only the major systems and structures protected or do we slap an anti-sogginess runes on every paper cup?
Why do you draw the line at autoloaders and not say... Elevators? What is so dangerous about autoloaders that puts it in a category of it's own.
Energy weapons don't need to be reloaded, so they can be fired without human loaders.
The future I envision does not have slaves loading macrocannonsMy ideal future dosent have that.
How the hell do you even convince people to work in those conditions when the other option is living on a UBI stripend? We are post scarcity. People only work if they want to. All the 40k fluff talks about the high mortality rate among the press ganged crew. Frankly, that's not an enticing prospect.
Because elevators don't require machine spirits that are as complex. The tech-priests can more easily control them if they rebel, and they're also not specific targets when under Chaos or psyker attack.
And auto-loaders aren't in their own category, they live in a category that includes life-support, augurs, engines, etc. Systems that the tech-priests watch over to make sure nothing goes wrong. From their perspective, what do the lives of the crew matter compared to the possible destruction of part of or the whole ship if the machine-spirit rebels?
You and I both agree that we want auto-loaders for our ships, there's no disagreement here. My point is only that we don't have them currently, so we need to create them. Hence, the ships in my omake used humans in place of machines, because they don't have any other option.
I agree with you that our runes will protect our machines better, and so the Mechanicum will likely let us automate more.
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I'm trying to say, what's stopping random people from getting an electric winch, plugging it into the nearest wall, and using that. Do we need to design electric winches? Do we need to design every little thing. Do we need to design forklifts?
Somethings should be obvious.
Sure. But the Mechanicum isn't afraid of the electric winches. Nor did the Men of Iron turn electric winches against us.
The Mechanicum worries about the vulnerability created by increased automation. That they also possess the highest technology and industrial bases means we need to work with them to even try putting something like autoloaders in.
I'd say the fear the Mechanicum has towards AI is probably on the order of the backlash the Blood Angels felt when Horus murdered Sanguinius.
Just stop it's fluff nothing serious. It's a small thing in a good omake
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This is the turret from the Yamato
Look at how the ammo is stored. It is carried up by a crane, and loaded by a hydraulic system. There is not ONE single computer in this. Zip. Nada. Built with slide rules.
If we can't make this standard on our warships, we don't deserve to win against fucking orks, let alone chaos. If the mechanicus can not design something like this, with absolutely no computers, then I will side with the emperor, and say that religion is Bad.
If we can't make this standard on our warships, we don't deserve to win against fucking orks, let alone chaos. If the mechanicus can not design something like this, with absolutely no computers, then I will side with the emperor, and say that religion is Bad.
Lone Courier 6
Devilish Fool
- Location
- United States of Quests
Let.it.Go. you're focusing stupidly hard on one little detail that really doesn't matter in the end.This is the turret from the YamatoLook at how the ammo is stored. It is carried up by a crane, and loaded by a hydraulic system. There is not ONE single computer in this. Zip. Nada. Built with slide rules.
If we can't make this standard on our warships, we don't deserve to win against fucking orks, let alone chaos. If the mechanicus can not design something like this, with absolutely no computers, then I will side with the emperor, and say that religion is Bad.
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- Germany
Considering what the he argues about and how that makes it questionable if he thinks that is just fluff or if he really think that is how it works in serras nation.
Because the Forgeworlds/Admech/Mechanicus don´t control our tech and they also aren´t need to maintain our stuff, we also have an very developed R&D department that only isn´t noticed because Serra is there.
We also have automated alot of stuff already, not haveing auto-loaders would be beyond stupid after we went and upgrade pretty much everything that goes into our ships.
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- Ohio
Does it have to be electric autoloading?
Maybe we cca comporomise with each torpedo port having a small team turning gears as torpedoes are pulled in on a conveyor, or they arare pre-loaded in six-or-more shot loads like a round grenade launcher clip or like in a revolver, and can be wheeled and pushrd in easily.
Semi-automated, no ai, organic oversight, no slave labor. It also frees up teams for more important jobs or redundancy.
Maybe we cca comporomise with each torpedo port having a small team turning gears as torpedoes are pulled in on a conveyor, or they arare pre-loaded in six-or-more shot loads like a round grenade launcher clip or like in a revolver, and can be wheeled and pushrd in easily.
Semi-automated, no ai, organic oversight, no slave labor. It also frees up teams for more important jobs or redundancy.
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