I realized that, while I'm not voting for it ATM, my Apprenticeship plan may actually be salvagable with King's Scepter, which gives us our theory knowledge back and lets us pull our own weight. Combine giving Catherine access to Feruchemy with Talon/Alchemy gear and she may actually be effective. King's Scepter also means Seals+Forbear's Blade gives us some access to Curse Mitigation.

[]Plan Palpatine
-[]King's Scepter
-[]Seven Seals
-[]Talon
-[]Forbear's Blade
-[]Ceathlynn "Catherine" of Amarlt
 
[X] King's Knights
-[X] The King's Scepter
-[X] Accretion
-[X] Gisena Allria, the Nullity Sorceress
-[X] Forebear's Blade
-[X] Retinue

I like Seals a lot, but I really want to take Gisena here and I can't figure out a build with the two I like, so, given all this great info about Accretion that's come to light, I'll switch over. I've warmed up to it and it's starting to sound pretty cool!
Forebear's Blade is great with Accretion for smooth progression and Retinue+Gisena gives us a potential route to 2nd mitigations on our Curses.
 
Last edited:
The problem is that it isn't just a 77% loss to our main empowerment speed, it's around a 76% loss to all our empowerment speeds. We'd have 23% ourselves, plus 25% for five other people. We'd be able to harness multiple disciplines, sure, but only the lowest levels of each discipline due to the growth cut.

Assuming each companion has one empowerment method they could safely share, including the Hero, we'd have six disciplines averaging a hair under 25% growth speed. Or two different Thrice-Greats at 24-25% growth speed, or effectively one Thrice great at 49.75% growth speed. It just doesn't seem worth it, especially when growth compounds unto itself to produce more multipliers. Sure, we'd have higher growth than this in the beginning of the Quest, but I still don't really think that it'd outpace a solid Seals + Forebearer's Sword build.

If you want to Devil's Advocate me and just directly say that the synergy granted by having six different people with effectively 25% of a Progressive Cursebearer's growth share empowerment options results in superior growth, then please do, but I still don't think that's the case.

After all, I doubt that a 33% Cultivator focused Thrice Great + a 33% artificer focused Thrice Great + a 33% Diagram Mage focused Thrice Great would stack up to a 100% Nameless.
Pretty sure they could actually. You're looking at it incorrectly.

Imagine if we combined a pure 47 BP Diagram + 47 BP Cultivation + 47 BP Binary build into one package. Such a character would effectively have 13 EFBs. Something greater than Chronomancy is organization. Three times the people equals three times the effort spent.
 
Hrm. Still not really sure that Retinue is the best pick as far as early-mid game, tbh.
Early game, Gisena and Seals+Forebear is almost certainly the best.
Everything else has limited early game benefit.
As stated before, Hunger and Intensify are no good for Sword's already bad early game, and Prolessarch is too expensive to take.
Catherine, Talon, Retinue, and Relinquishment are left. (ignoring the minimal amount of Favor possible with 1 Lesser Remittance.)
Catherine's early game benefits would be if we buffed her with Seals. However, she is limited to peak mundane human alone, and will only start granting significant mid-lategame benefits after learning a magic style/gaining equipment.
Talon has very minor (intimidation) first-fight benefits, but mitigates the inevitable resource shortage we will face due to having compromised social ability. It would also be useful if we do not end up near civilization. While Gisena's social prowess does somewhat cover our lack due to Tyrant, she also isn't guaranteed to do everything in our best interest, even with Retinue. Plus, we can bribe her this way.
Retinue grants some early game benefits as an incentive to Gisena to actually do shit for us, and at least can guarantee she doesn't betray us. However, it also leaves us vulnerable for longer. While the synergistic aspects of the multiple companions may cover for the significant decrease in raw power ... it might not, either.
Relinquishment grants no early game benefits, and at best will come into play in midgame. We probably can't afford to take it as Sword. Really good for a Scepter build, though.
So, Talon and Retinue are the main contenders as far as early-mid game go.
Talon does face the flaw of "you need to kill stuff," so it may not come into play as early as Retinue. It also isn't as strong of an incentive as Retinue. However, it's definitely more feasible to trade with people instead of offering a significant number of people who we may need things from 1/4 of our potential, and resources are far easier to obtain with it.
(also, it would not be funny if we didn't die because we were too weak, but because we dropped into the wilderness and couldn't manage to get enough food or water to live)
 
After all, I doubt that a 33% Cultivator focused Thrice Great + a 33% artificer focused Thrice Great + a 33% Diagram Mage focused Thrice Great would stack up to a 100% Nameless.

Again, the most important caveat is "if you choose your companions correctly." For example, in the presented scenario, who are the Cultivator, Artificer/Naturalist and Diagram Mage in question? If it's Zang Kong With Progression + Aurelia With Progression + Tyranshal With Progression, then I would expect them to outscale Nameless at some point, sure. If it's like... Taishan, Amouthanos (who has no essence left) and Xylitemerral, probably not.

The point is there are character-specific multipliers beyond that 25%, and some systems are only attached to certain characters.

I think this is an issue of copy-pasting from a previous poster who made the original typo. That's what happened to me anyway. I see the same error popping up a lot, so I assume I'm not the only one.

I just hope it doesn't mess up the vote counter!

I realized that, while I'm not voting for it ATM, my Apprenticeship plan may actually be salvagable with King's Scepter, which gives us our theory knowledge back and lets us pull our own weight.

Hm... yes, that'd actually be a very powerful build. You would get Catherine online pretty much immediately since you can use Scepter-level Seals to buff her physical attributes.

Hunger or Retinue would be better in the long-term than Talon, you don't need its equips anymore since you're Scepter.

[X] King's Knights
-[X] The King's Scepter
-[X] Accretion
-[X] Gisena Allria, the Nullity Sorceress
-[X] Forebear's Blade
-[X] Retinue

I like Seals a lot, but I really want to take Gisena here and I can't figure out a build with the two I like, so, given all this great info about Accretion that's come to life, I'll switch over. I've warmed up to it and it's starting to sound pretty cool!
Forebear's Blade is great with Accretion for smooth progression and Retinue+Gisena gives us a potential route to 2nd mitigations on our Curses.

There are ways to induce Coalescence as well. Just gotta get some findross or findross-equivalent energy!
 
Well, Catherine doesn't really offer any synergies to start, she's more of a late-game asset! But she's very good at that.
Hm... timid but possessed of deep reserves of will, naturally talented in combat, product of dubiously ethical eugenics, and her name's in blue. Suizhen, is that you?

That the talented pilot's a late-game asset makes we wonder if this isn't a high-tech setting with mechs. That would make the TSM build even better, since we're waltzing into the fray with a fucking sword of all things. The sheer gall, the culture shock, the rivers of salty tears that'd ensue.

AMARLT COMMANDER: 'Noooo, you can't just parry the Wave Motion Gun!'
FORMER HERO: 'Ha ha ha, Forebear's Blade goes swish.'

Also, just as a reminder, Accretion is the choice of Doing Things and Not Having Build Votes. It's worth it for that alone, even if it didn't appeal to me strongly in its own right. Seals advances more slowly and requires crafting/munchkinry to fully exploit.
 
Hmm. I'm liking the idea of bringing in more people, and Catherine is suppose to be great lategame.

[X] Plan Team Spirit
-[X] The King's Scepter
-[X] Seven Seals
-[X] Gisena Allria, the Nullity Sorceress
-[X] Ceathlynn "Catherine" of Amarlt
-[X] Retinue

Plan is to power up our allies, and operate as a group with all the benefits thereof. The main downside of this plan is it loses the Forebear's blade.
 
The Best Curse mitigation build is probably with Gisena + Retinue + Relinquishment. It pretty much in the long term make them manageable and ensures that we won't break under the strain.
 
Hm... timid but possessed of deep reserves of will, naturally talented in combat, product of dubiously ethical eugenics, and her name's in blue. Suizhen, is that you?

That the talented pilot's a late-game asset makes we wonder if this isn't a high-tech setting with mechs. That would make the TSM build even better, since we're waltzing into the fray with a fucking sword of all things. The sheer gall, the culture shock, the plains out salt that'd ensue.

Also, just as a reminder, Accretion is the choice of Doing Things and Not Having Build Votes. It's worth it for that alone, even if it didn't appeal to me strongly in its own right. Seals advances more slowly and requires crafting/munchkinry to fully exploit.
I figure we'd still have build votes, they'll just be much more focused.
 
The Best Curse mitigation build is probably with Gisena + Retinue + Relinquishment. It pretty much in the long term make them manageable and ensures that we won't break under the strain.

Relinquishment provides psychological relief only. Somebody, somewhere, is getting their lifeforce drained still by our Decimator's Affliction curse.

Edit: Actually in hindsight knowing that it may not even provide psychological relief depending on how that plays out with being able to follow orders and not have to worry about the next protagonist syndrome incident for a while in our heroes head.

Edit2: @Rihaku Also I'm slightly surprised by that when it comes to Talon, I figured alchemy with Talon materials from something like Jotunheim or beyond level monsters would be pretty relevant over the long term. What do you get when you render down Azathoth or something?
 
Last edited:
The other reason why Retinue is especially useful is that our companions don't suffer Curses, so they are well equipped to handle our problems. Diplomacy, curse mitigation or effort expenditure on our behalf - If getting other people to do the work for you appeals, then this is the option for it. In particular with the Apocryphal Curse and Decimation Curse, they scale to our level, not to our companions, so that can be considered mitigation in of itself already.
 
Edit2: Also I'm slightly surprised by that when it comes to Talon, I figured alchemy with Talon materials from something like Jotunheim or beyond level monsters would be pretty relevant over the long term.

Yeah, the main thing is that you can already get resources at high power levels so, while Talon offers more and better resources, it's not enough to outscale something like Retinue being applied to Catherine.

The other reason why Retinue is especially useful is that our companions don't suffer Curses, so they are well equipped to handle our problems. Diplomacy, curse mitigation or effort expenditure on our behalf - If getting other people to do the work for you appeals, then this is the option for it. In particular with the Apocryphal Curse and Decimation Curse, they scale to our level, not to our companions, so that can be considered mitigation in of itself already.

That's one way of mitigating the Decimator's Affliction! Just never be strong enough to increase its range and have loyalty-pledged Companions do all the work for you! A Nameless-level strat!
 
[X] The King's Scepter
[X] Seven Seals
[X] Gisena Allria, the Nullity Sorceress
[X] Forebear's Blade
[X] Retinue

I think that this is overall most efficient combination. Gisena protec while Blad attac, Curse mitigation for days, Gisena can cover our dogshit social, Retinue allow us to get a cadre of trusted Lieutenants despite our Tyrant curse and so on.

Also, full on murder stuff for stuff just doesn't sound interesting. Still, I'm a bit sad we can't fit Retinue, Gisena and skele daddy in a vote.
 
Inserted tally
Adhoc vote count started by runeblue360 on May 19, 2020 at 2:58 AM, finished with 189 posts and 35 votes.
 
Pretty sure they could actually. You're looking at it incorrectly.

Imagine if we combined a pure 47 BP Diagram + 47 BP Cultivation + 47 BP Binary build into one package. Such a character would effectively have 13 EFBs. Something greater than Chronomancy is organization. Three times the people equals three times the effort spent.
I guess the crux of my arguing is that it doesn't seem like that's what would result in Retinue's case.

Like, even assuming that each character has enough widely applicable stuff to be worth one whole magic system when used on everyone in the group, you'd effectively have 6 systems at 25% learning rate for a total of 1.5 systems at a normal learning rate.

...Actually, screw it, that's good enough for me. We'd probably not more than double the potency of Seven Seals via Forebearers's Blade, and a pessimistic 1.5 magic systems return power time invested kinda edges that out.

And I suppose it'd actually be a bit better than normal, assuming results can be shared, because you could have each Retinue member working on a different system and then just bootstrap each other with what they've learned.

I guess, in a perfect world, we'd effectively get a little less than 150% normal progression, assuming all training results could be shared.

And I suppose that if you assume that even 50% or less of the results were applicable to other people, as long as each member had an additional x2 growth rate stapled on everything would work out.

...Plus, it'd be possible to chuck all our companions into a Hyperbolic Time Chamber, as they wouldn't be affected by our Curses that make that kind of thing bad for us to do. That'd be an extraordinary way to powerlevel them and punch above our effective weight class. Would probably have to get Oaths of Loyalty though, so they don't squish us like a bug when they come out of there swole as heck.

Yeah, alright, I'm sold. Thanks to everyone who argued with me on this, and Rihaku for Devil's Advocating so well.

The Best Curse mitigation build is probably with Gisena + Retinue + Relinquishment. It pretty much in the long term make them manageable and ensures that we won't break under the strain.

Allow me to introduce myself, as even though I'm sold on Retinue I still really want Relinquishment.

[X] Plan: Vacation Days
-[X] The Sword That Ends the World
-[X] Seven Seals
-[X] Gisena Allria, the Nullity Sorceress
-[X] Retinue

-[X] Relinquishment

A Retinued Gisena is effectively a First Stage mitigation to all of our Curses at once, which immediately boosts the amount of time off we get with Relinquishment and lowers the recharge time. Finding four other people who can mitigate Curses like Gisena should offer even further amounts of mitigation, which again boosts the break offered by Relinquishment.

While Forebearer's Blade does boost Seals a fair amount, that only applies to us specifically, which doesn't really do much when we're relying on other people to come up with things to mitigate our Curses. Relinquishment is there because it offers the most mitigation possible for a Cursebearer. Seriously, even with no mitigation effort at all, over 1,000 years Relinquishment would offer 100 weeks of no Curses whatsoever, a little under two years worth of freedom. If we can gather a Retinue of mitigators, that number would shoot rapidly up.

And if my idea about chucking our retinue into a Hyperbolic Time Chamber plays out, they might eventually become so much more powerful than us that they could massively mitigate all of our Curses, granting us a whole bunch of vacation time via Relinquishment.

Although I'll probably switch to Forebearer's Blade if this doesn't gain traction, because massively mitigated is still massively mitigated, even if we don't have get to have vacation time.
 
Last edited:
I dislike Relinquishment due to chance of Sword winning. As per Rihaku that ability needs to charge, so it will have no issue during the period Sword is ramping up, which is when we are at most vulnerable.
 
@Wolfy For ease of plan consolidation, do you mind going for your vote like this(I also corrected the spelling error in Forebear's Blade, let's see what that does for the tally)

[x]Plan Maximum Curse Mitigation(Gisena Edition)
-[x]The King's Scepter
-[x]Seven Seals
-[x]Gisena Allria, the Nullity Sorceress
-[x]Forebear's Blade
-[x]Retinue
 
Is there anything I can do to convince people to vote for Accretion? In the long run as our legend grows, it will probably make us resilient to the curses and better at our job. It will probably also allow us to specialize against Chosen Ones. Making our job easier in the long run.

Forebear's Blade will become the Bane of Heroes and Kings alike while Destiny and Fate itself would no longer have any power our us, as we will have broken them again and again.
 
Last edited:
I think that this is overall most efficient combination. Gisena protec while Blad attac, Curse mitigation for days, Gisena can cover our dogshit social, Retinue allow us to get a cadre of trusted Lieutenants despite our Tyrant curse and so on.

Hunger vs Retinue is an interesting consideration. Retinue is probably stronger late-game assuming good decision making, but Hunger offers much more power and utility in the early to midgame. Assuming you guys are appropriately aggressive, Hunger should increase growth rate to 300-500% of baseline, plus it improves motivation and makes your character less depressed.

...Plus, it'd be possible to chuck all our companions into a Hyperbolic Time Chamber, as they wouldn't be affected by our Curses that make that kind of thing bad for us to do.

You don't have the Affliction of Slumber, so you can use Time Chambers. Just gotta find a way to deal with Decimator's drain.
 
Last edited:
Hunger vs Retinue is an interesting consideration. Retinue is probably letter late-game assuming good decision making, but Hunger offers much more power and utility in the early to midgame. Assuming you guys are appropriately aggressive, Hunger should increase growth rate to 300-500% of baseline, plus it improves motivation and makes your character less depressed.



You don't have the Affliction of Slumber, so you can use Time Chambers. Just gotta find a way to deal with Decimator's drain.

Wow. If we're crazy enough to give it to a Retinue member, they may actually be able to seriously keep up with us.
 
@Wolfy For ease of plan consolidation, do you mind going for your vote like this(I also corrected the spelling error in Forebear's Blade, let's see what that does for the tally)

[x]Plan Maximum Curse Mitigation(Gisena Edition)
-[x]The King's Scepter
-[x]Seven Seals
-[x]Gisena Allria, the Nullity Sorceress
-[x]Forebear's Blade
-[x]Retinue
Sure thing!

[X]Plan Maximum Curse Mitigation(Gisena Edition)
-[X]The King's Scepter
-[X]Seven Seals
-[X]Gisena Allria, the Nullity Sorceress
-[X]Forebear's Blade
-[X]Retinue
Hunger vs Retinue is an interesting consideration. Retinue is probably letter late-game assuming good decision making, but Hunger offers much more power and utility in the early to midgame. Assuming you guys are appropriately aggressive, Hunger should increase growth rate to 300-500% of baseline, plus it improves motivation and makes your character less depressed.

You don't have the Affliction of Slumber, so you can use Time Chambers. Just gotta find a way to deal with Decimator's drain.
Would it be possible for Talon to "drop" some findross for Gisena?

Hunger has it's uses, yeah, but as with Relinquishment I am trying to make Remittance agnostic vote; having Hunger with Praxis sounds somewhat impractical.
 
Yet another one for the "Ah, how easy it would be if we were just willing to COMMIT MASS MURDER" pile. No wonder villains never cease with incentives like these!
 
Back
Top