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A Simple Transaction I

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BrainInAJar said:
The problem with Relinquishment with Sword is that it will be very useful in ten years, but ten years later is far past the risk zone for Sword. The most crucial period is now. We can't afford to take thing that take ten years to pay off.
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Actually, I'd argue the opposite. Cutting our growth rate via Retinue means that we stay a squishy scrub for longer, thus extending the period of early game weakness that Sword suffers from. Like, let's say we need 6 Units of Biggatons concentrated in one person to get out of the early game weakness phase, and we normally earn 1 Unit of Biggatons for every 1 Unit of Time that passes. With Relinquishment, it takes 6 Units of Time to get that concentration of power. With Retinue, it takes 8 Units of Time (or more if we get more Vassals).

In addition, we'll always have a noticeable risk even in late game, because Rohaku's noted in thread that important people we fight will get a buff due to the Apocryphal Curse. Like, multiple Nemeses specced to wreck us level of important. Being able to negate that for our most important fights substantially lowers risk in the late game.
 
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Guys, Transcendent Shonen Murderhobo is a fucking great plan. The only thing I would want different is replacing Hunger with gisena.


We want that sweet Gisena mitigation so that we actually have time to complete our quest, and have someone who can mitigate the worst of decimation.

Accretion build pretty much require Forebear's blade and Relinquishment is literally the greatest gift an Cursebearer can ask for. Sooner or later, we are also going to need time to have after our nemesis, this will give our MC that time.
 
Rihaku said:
Should you survive, you'll have many! Sometimes multiple at once!
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That's... concerning. This is the kind of shit that makes Hunger worth it, our build is practically optimized for making and then ending enemies, the only way it could be better is with the Plenary Brand. If only Hunger didn't come with a training debuff and discount Heroic Passions, but such are the prices we pay. It may be impossible to remove now, but in the long run Progression laughs at mere impossibility.

Regarding risks, it does make sense to avoid picking additional companions here from an IC perspective. After all, everyone died last time. Given periodic upheaval and the risk of Indenture, statistically these guys are going to fall at some point along the way, even if we manage to book them passage on the crazy train that is the Geas of Indenture. Especially Ceathlynn, who starts as a baseline human. She was thrown 'into the future' and might be able to divulge (outdated) intel on our first world, which would be one argument for her selection and if we take Retinue too she can become relevant, but let's not. We have already Doomed ourselves in the pursuit of vengeance.
 
Shard said:
The main weakness.. is the existence of another, nearly identical plan. (Orm's)
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TSM is missing Intensifier, instead choosing Relinquishment. Relinqeshment aids us in terms of morale, and allows for strategic dropping of the Doom for the sake of diplomacy, but also consequently significantly drops our initial power-level. That isn't a run-killer since it still has Scepter at all, but it does mean that an Apocryphal proc that is just a straight Combat check is liable to be surpass it's ability without severe gambling.
 
Aabcehmu said:
Fuck it. Jumping to Rihaku's own Max Scaling build, because Greed.

[X] Plan Greed
-[X] The King's Scepter
-[X] Accretion
-[X] Hunger
-[X] Forebear's Blade
-[X] Intensify
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I'm quite reluctant to switch away from Praxis, but if I did then I'd switch to this.

It's kind of funny that we've got one option which gives us ultimate offence and defence (Imperial Praxis) and another that gives us slightly less ultimate but still awesome offence and defence (Grey Plate + Forebear's Sword).
 
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Rozencrantz said:
We don't get immediate mitigation, but we can still improve in Seven Seals, and with our growth rate, it'll still be the lowest hanging fruit for mitigation.
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Based on the word of Rihaku in this post, we can only really have one master here magic systemwise. If we want the Praxis Lore, our development in sealing is forfeit. A Simple Transaction I Original

LordOfMurder said:
That's why you take Gisena + Retinue instead. Instant mitigation.
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And my current plan does that too.
 
KidFromPallet said:
Actually, I'd argue the opposite. Cutting our growth rate via Retinue means that we stay a squishy scrub for longer, thus extending the period of early game weakness that Sword suffers from. Like, let's say we need 6 Units of Biggatons concentrated in one person to get out of the early game weakness phase, and we normally earn 1 Unit of Biggatons for every 1 Unit of Time that passes. With Relinquishment, it takes 6 Units of Time to get that concentration of power. With Retinue, it takes 8 Units of Time (or more if we get more Vassals).
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Needing 25% more time to ramp is easily worth the immediate mitigation of the Apocryphal Curse, of which otherwise we'd need Gisena to do for basically free, since we have very little power.

As for the fact it'd be useful in the late game, Sword is already a build which heavily sacrifices early-game for late game; we don't need more of it.
 
Dark Lord Bob said:
I'm quite reluctant to switch away from Praxis, but if I did then I'd switch to this.

It's kind of ironic that we've got one option which gives us ultimate offence and defence (Imperial Praxis) and another that gives us slightly less ultimate but still awesome offence and defence (Grey Plate + Forebear's Sword).
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I will naturally admit that Praxis has infinitely greater long-term potential, but at the same time, given that we are a Progression-type Cursebearer, 'high long-term potential' is a given. Plan Greed retains a high growth rate, but also has the WoQM highest starting power out of the options remaining to us, which, given that the short-run is the explicit weakness of Progression-type Cursebearers, seems eminently relevant to me.
 
DkArthas said:
Guys, Transcendent Shonen Murderhobo is a fucking great plan. The only thing I would want different is replacing Hunger with gisena.


We want that sweet Gisena mitigation so that we actually have time to complete our quest, and have someone who can mitigate the worst of decimation.

Accretion build pretty much require Forebear's blade and Relinquishment is literally the greatest gift an Cursebearer can ask for. Sooner or later, we are also going to need time to have after our nemesis, this will give our MC that time.
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Gisena mitigation is a short term buff without Retinue. We can likely find other sources of mitigation with the safety Scepter provides.
 
Given the incoherent mess attempting to keep track of voting by plan is right now, I tried tallying by line for easier consolidation. Incoming.
Adhoc vote count started by BrainInAJar on May 19, 2020 at 1:27 AM, finished with 134 posts and 26 votes.
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DkArthas said:
Frankly, both intensify and Retinue sound sucidal with Praxis. The best way to go with Praxis is likely maximum companions. The Lich and Nullify in specific. They might not be that great in combat but every addition counts. Praxis path needs to care about the short term, everything else is irrelevant.
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I would suggest Forebear and the two Companions, the former seems to offer a minimum power boost at least, and the latter.. can be meatshields while run from away from the likely difficult encounters.
 
Interesting. Is Accretion actually falling behind? I will say that sufficient quantities of Accretion can act as a natural check to the horribleness of the Apocryphal Curse. The curse is basically all the bad parts of being the Main Character with none of the good parts, whereas Accretion allows one to literally develop a Plot Armor.
 
[X] Plan Vengeance Can Be Praxis
-[X] The Sword That Ends the World
-[X] Seven Seals
-[X] Gisena Allria, the Nullity Sorceress
-[X] Forebear's Blade
-[X] Retinue
 
Accretion needs more votes. It's pretty damn great. It allows our equipments to keep growing with us and our legend. Ensuring that we won't have to find or search when our older ones become obsolete. Sure, it's not as reliable as other options in the start, but with King's Sceptre we can look toward the long term.
 
BrainInAJar said:
Needing 25% more time to ramp is easily worth the immediate mitigation of the Apocryphal Curse, of which otherwise we'd need Gisena to do for basically free, since we have very little power.
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I very much doubt that Gisena would be able to meaningfully mitigate the Apocryphal Curse in the early game, given that it's got the power of two normal Curses behind it. Like, let's do some math here. Someone posted a quote in thread that her power was enough to reduce a Sleep Curse from 16 to 14 hours. That's the easiest portion of a Curse to mitigate, so let's say that she could mitigate 1/8 of a Curse, if she's starting from the easiest portion. Except the Apocryphal Curse is twice the weight of a normal Curse, so she'd only be able to knock off 1/16 of it's total weight.

There were also figures quoted that said to reduce the Curse an additional 1/8 (2 out of 16 hours), you'd need to output more energy than an entire universe. So, alright, let's assume that a normal Progression type wold reach universe-busting levels of power 1/4 of the way through a Quest. Gisena, who would require quadruple that amount of time, would only reach that level of mitigation near the end of the story. So, basically, Gisenna would only be able to reduce the Apocryphal Curse by 1/8 at the very end of the Quest.

Additionally, a Retinue build would not just require 25% of the time to reach the same level as a Relinquishment build. It'd actually be 33% more time (.75x1.33 = 1). But wait, that's only if we take one person into our Retinue! And you know we're too greedy for that. With five people, the maximum possible, in our Retinue, we'd have a growth rate of 23%, compared to their 25%, going by the most generous interpretation (they always get 25% growth rate instead of getting a rate that matches what we threw away). This neuters us more than the Curse of Sleep would.

In short, Gisena just doesn't offer enough mitigation of the Apocryphal Curse to be worth getting Retinue, as compared to being able to just plain out chuck it for important late game battles like Relinquishment offers. Plus, with maximum greed/waifus, this slashes our potential worse than the reviled Curse of Sleep. It's just not worth it.
 
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Rihaku said:
[ ] Prolessarch [2 Remittances]
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I wonder which version of EFB this guy is from. And from where. The height of the Age of Truth, escaping from reality long before any Dooms had time to take hold? After or in its Decline, leaving to escape them? Even the Age of Might? After, learning under Nameless and then leaving to journey beyond?

While physically similar to Baen, his attitude is completely different, perhaps more similar to Caroline.
 
I will reiterate that Plan Greed does have Accretion (in light of Rihaku's recent statement regarding Apocrypha), and in general I imagine that it is one of the best prepared all around for Apocrypha, having a natural fast-paced narrative cycle and angling to grow as much as possible when fed narrative dross.
 
Ultimatum said:
[X] Plan Vengeance Can Be Praxis
-[X] The Sword That Ends the World
-[X] Seven Seals
-[X] Gisena Allria, the Nullity Sorceress
-[X] Forebear's Blade
-[X] Retinue
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I don't know if you got the memo but Seals+Forbear's blade may well not give you any curse mitigation with Sword given the time demands of Praxis, along with our Mauveshirt level ability to use Seven Seals without Kings Scepter when Curse mitigation is at minimum the work of Skilled Archmages.
 
Man, I really don't want a repeat of Serams build in the earlier thread. Why even let us choose the Sword if it's so troublesome.

I can't really give a more honest argument than a Progression-type Praxis user being something I want to see. I want to have our revenge with Sword. I want to be that cool, despite everything.

Shard said:
I would suggest Forebear and the two Companions, the former seems to offer a minimum power boost at least, and the latter.. can be meatshields while run from away from the likely difficult encounters.
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Choosing a character only guarantees their presence, not their obedience. If we want them to do stuff, we need to give them a reason to. Since Sword does not have immediate power, Retinue offers an adequate replacement.
KidFromPallet said:
In short, Gisena just doesn't offer enough mitigation of the Apocryphal Curse to be worth getting Retinue, as compared to being able to just plain out chuck it for an important late game battle like Relinquishment offers.
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Rihaku said:
Gisena's fast Curse mitigation attacks the same problem that Intensify does (early survival) if you target the Apocryphal Curse, and with less variance.
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Shard said:
Gisena mitigation is a short term buff without Retinue. We can likely find other sources of mitigation with the safety Scepter provides.
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One worry I have regarding Retinue is that it might still be short term.

By that I mean if we give someone a quarter of our power we're still going to be growing three times faster than them, rendering them eventually (we're in this for the long haul) obsolete and us slowed down until we take the 'costly' option of removing her.

I don't know whether all of our Retinue end up with a quarter of our current growth rate, one quarter of what it was before we added each of them in turn, or one quarter of our initial growth rate. In the first case their obsolescence is inevitable, as the 4:1 growth ration will be maintained. In the second case, if we try and add further people to our retinue to even out our speed, we'd have to add three or four further people until we reached the growth rate of our first partner, but then we'd be outgrowing those extra people (who only got a quarter of a diminished growth rate). In the last case if our initial growth rate is 1R, and everyone added to our party gets a growth rate of 0.25R, then we'd be growing at an equal rate when we had a retinue of five (they'd be growing a smidge faster than us).

I'm not a fan of retinue.

Edited for clarity.
 
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BrainInAJar said:
Man, I really don't want a repeat of Serams build in the earlier thread. Why even let us choose the Sword if it's so troublesome.

I can't really give a more honest argument than a Progression-type Praxis user being something I want to see. I want to have our revenge with Sword. I want to be that cool, despite everything.
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Personally, I was totally down for Praxis on a Combat-type, where it could serve as our key to unbounded (albeit, much slower) growth. But on a Progression type, it's too much win-more and not enough catch-up.
 
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BrainInAJar said:
Rihaku Quote
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Yes, and it's also been stated that the Lesser Remittances will only affect our initial survival chances by 1-3%. Eventually cutting our growth rate down to 23% isn't worth around +2% survival chance right now.

Dark Lord Bob said:
By that I mean if we give someone a quarter of our power we're still going to be growing three times faster than them, rendering them eventually (we're in this for the long haul) obsolete and us slowed down until we take the 'costly' option of removing her.
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Don't worry, with maximum Retinue members (which we'll totally have because waifus) eventually our growth rate will be even lower than theirs!
 
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