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A Simple Transaction I

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The connections only multiply. Had the world of EFB been visited by the Forebear at some point long its distant past?
 
Valkhir said:
Now, this may be rather tenuous, but I remembered seeing something named capital P procession once before in EFB, having looked back, it seems that it was the Bleak Raven's special Dao, called the Bleak Procession, which was said to be inspired by the Tomb of the Netherine we avoided, said to contain the tombs or ruins of previous Ages if I remember right.
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Nice catch.

Aether is conceptually above, like heaven, while nether is the opposite and conceptually below. "Netherine" is a decent name for a man who constantly descends to lower and lower universes. I wonder if the Tomb of the Netherine had a sword resting in it as well, like the Tomb in the Isekai world?

I speculated a bit about how the Fates were forced, by law, to appear fair. Maybe the Forebear was the one that made those rules.

vali said:
We know that the Fates are operating under restrictions, and that "the appearance of balance their ultimate law". It seems that this 'ultimate law' is not a law that they have placed on themselves, but one imposed on them by a higher power, a somewhat benevolent force that apparently created the world and set systems and laws in place to keep everything running. What we see, again and again, is world full of sensible rules, which the Fates then exploit to the hilt in negative ways.
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He did kind of a shitty job at fixing this world, but that's to be expected. Dude's real good at cutting, less good at creating universes. Also you really have to stick around for a couple million years to get the full picture of what your reforms did.
 
If we're talking about callbacks, I'd like to point out the sword we didn't get in Most High:
Rihaku said:
[ ] Unnamed (Away) - A reaper daiklave, slightly curved, of unusual heft and killing power. Unadorned, it used to be simply Odyssial's favorite mundane sword. So many daevas fell to its edge, however, that it spontaneously acquired the traits of soulsteel. Starmetal and soulsteel alloyed in a single seamless metal, folded ten thousand times upon itself, once for each monstrosity Odyssial slew. The pressure of its advance buckles shields, shatters bones, and brought Titans to their knees. Runes of infinitesimal fineness are etched upon the flat of the blade, calligraphic depictions of a particular sutra. They are its only adornment. Its edge does not shine in any sort of light. The metal itself is matte. The hilt is undecorated and sparse. It is the part of Odyssial that destroys. That is all.

Odyssial did not name this blade, no more than one would name a limb. Colloquially, Pearl named it "Away," for the reaction of his enemies upon seeing it, for the status of those who had faced it, and because, no matter where Odyssial may go, no matter who he may face, he always finds Away.

*Unparalleled powers of reaving and severing. A weapon embedded in the idea of violence since the world was young.

*Immense destructive force allows the wielder to perform attacks of shocking obscurity or apocalyptic scale. Having slain both those who created this world, and those who threatened to unmake it, it is fully steeped, every molecule, with conceptual might. It is just a blade without name, but it is also a lever by which worlds are moved.

*Blessed by Endings, Battle, and Serenity, and containing the reified deaths of ten thousand daeva-lords, jouten, and giganoths, the unnamed blade is capable of a dizzying variety of effects.

*If use is attempted by someone who is not part of Odyssial, that wielder is not protected from the blade's destructive force. They may find themselves 'accidentally' losing limbs when they attempt to sever a nation from existence, for example.

- The philosophy of Odyssial is thus: murder your enemies before they know you oppose them. Attack from every possible angle. Break them with overwhelming force on every front. While broad and esoteric powers are in its domain, virtually all of the blade's effects focus on destruction. It defends, but often only in the sense that the best defense is a good offense.
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Honestly, I was thinking maybe Hunger wasn't even from Earth, and didn't Isekai. He was just from Nameless' Age and Nameless just proliferated Earth memes and stuff like that, and he just accidentaly time traveled instead of world-traveling. I just can't really think of a coherent timeline, but maybe time-travel would explain parts of it, maybe a hint for why Azure has a Time Dominion?
 
I think we should take Pillars of Creation soon. Apparent synergy with our Tower choice, and it means we don't have to stress so damn much over finding A Hunger Sated procs in future.
 
There isn't strictly a need for a 'coherent timeline', the Accursed is beyond the limitations of time or causality, and given his interference in Hunger's trajectory, all bets are off.
 
vali said:
Nice catch.

Aether is conceptually above, like heaven, while nether is the opposite and conceptually below. "Netherine" is a decent name for a man who constantly descends to lower and lower universes. I wonder if the Tomb of the Netherine had a sword resting in it as well, like the Tomb in the Isekai world?

I speculated a bit about how the Fates were forced, by law, to appear fair. Maybe the Forebear was the one that made those rules.
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I do remember reading how EFB used to have a bunch of other gods then the fates, many of which were more powerful then the four. Maybe he was the one who ended up killing them.
 
[ ] Heavenlathe
A week before his vacation finishes and he moves on, Hunger's most notable trait has finally been mimicked by an imaginary element. Heavenlathe grants +Progression, and applies To Shatter Heaven for Surgecrafting. Cannot be separated from its' wielder; said vessel is both entirely innocent and completely unprotected from corruption or subversion.
*Isn't this a bit cruel, Apocryphal? Hunger just managed to get enough Geas mitigation to take all his companions along! Oh, what's that? If he stops suppressing you, he'll save enough power to bring one more? How devious. We are all in awe of your brilliance.

(100 words exactly, not counting this parenthetical.)
 
BrainInAJar said:
Wow, if Hunger really was the Forebear, the fact the Combat-class option was called Freedom is cast in a completely different light, huh?
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Yeah, the fact that Vengeance caused the Accursed to visibly emote is also something I'm retroactively reexamining. Also, does this make Hunger's choice of waifu indirectly incestuous?! But it's okay, the Tyrant adopted his heiress so Catherine's not related by blood. Bullet dodged, no chromo, etc.
Valkhir said:
Now, this may be rather tenuous, but I remembered seeing something named capital P procession once before in EFB, having looked back, it seems that it was the Bleak Raven's special Dao, called the Bleak Procession, which was said to be inspired by the Tomb of the Netherine we avoided, said to contain the tombs or ruins of previous Ages if I remember right.
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Kudos, this is a good catch. I thought my salt about never exploring the Tomb couldn't get any stronger, but here we are. We never did find out who or what set up the rules of the Great Game that constrained the Fates. Monstrous as they were, their ability to act was mostly restricted to the opening and closing of Ages, as well as whatever antics they got up to while incarnated. Not to channel Foxglove too hard or indulge in Fate apologism, but it could have been a lot worse.
 
Rihaku said:
How do you think Hunger will react to this information? How should he react? Was the Forebear an example to be aspired to, or a cautionary tale to be vigorously spurned? Assuming that he's truly gone at all, of course...
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The thing that strikes me most about the Forebear is despite the fact that he's making the omniverse a (subjectively) better place, it's not by his own choice.

Compare Indenture to the Procession; Curses can be mitigated, but no mention of mitigating Procession is ever made. Indenture kills you rather than let you get stuck for all eternity on a torture world, can be mitigated, will end one day in the distant future or whenever you learn to transcend time itself, and as far as we know doesn't send you to a shittier world every time. Also it comes with Progression and some goodies, which is pretty cool.

But most importantly, the only way to receive the Geas of Indenture is via a simple transaction. You have to ask for it. Request it. That's why it's called Indenture, not Slavery. And there is no mention of the Forebear requesting the Procession.

The things Hunger is facing are bad, but the situation between Hunger and the Forebear is fundamentally different because he chose this. Pain you willingly inflict on yourself is different. It's a thing you own, something you have agency over. "Buy the ticket, take the ride". You own the experience, and the outcome.

There are a lot of similarities between the Forebear and Hunger, but at the end of the day Hunger is Indentured, a condition he choose and that will one day end when all his Curses are mitigated down to irrelevance. But the Forebear was a slave, and I think he died a slave, still unable to cut his way to freedom.

Rihaku said:
Is there a means of attaining contentment without excess self-satisfaction? 'Quick is the plunge to stagnation, once one's goals are attained.' Perhaps that is the wisdom behind my interminable journey. If so, have I any choice but the repudiation of all wisdom?
- Notes of the Forebear
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The answer is balance.

There is a time for rest once your goals are attained. There is a time for labor once you have chosen new goals. A journey can have many starts and stops. A journey can end and a new one begin.

That mister 'cut through' would see the world in such stark terms isn't surprising, but it is easily refuted. An endless voyage deeper into hell has only a few lessons to teach, and the Forebear learned all of them a long time ago. Thinking that the only lesson wisdom has to teach is "cut through better" is such a sad and myopic vision of the world.

Really what the Forebear needs is All Paths.

...

Other thoughts:

Do the Hidden Ones draw any inspiration from the Silent Ones from William Hope Hodgson's Nightlands? Probably not.

Previously I speculated that the Hidden Ones were the ones that cast the Geas of Indenture on the Accursed. Maybe he's not the only person they cursed. We see the Accursed running around and handing out Curses right and left and we assume that all curses come from him, but the original beings that cast those curses on him in the first place might not be dead, in which case the Forebear might have been cursed by the same beings that cursed the Accursed. It would also explain why the Procession is so much worse; unlike Indenture, it's not second hand and there's no Accursed taking the first blow.
 
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vali said:
Really what the Forebear needs is All Paths.
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Brave words! runeblue might have something to say about that...

vali said:
Previously I speculated that the Hidden Ones were the ones that cast the Geas of Indenture on the Accursed. Maybe he's not the only person they cursed. We see the Accursed running around and handing out Curses right and left and we assume that all curses come from him, but the original beings that cast those curses on him in the first place might not be dead, in which case the Forebear might have been cursed by the same beings that cursed the Accursed. It would also explain why the Procession is so much worse; unlike Indenture, it's not second hand and there's no Accursed taking the first blow.
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Interesting theory, though I would expect the Procession to be a strictly worse version of the Geas, which it admittedly is in many aspects, but the Forebear himself agrees that his job is at least mostly morally unambiguous. So I'm doubtful about a connection to the Accursed himself. That the Procession was cast by the Hidden Ones, whoever they are, sounds quite likely though. They are supposed to be very powerful and at fault for how much Hunger's life sucked, and Procession also sounds like a recipe for suckage.
 
Unelemental said:
Brave words! runeblue might have something to say about that...
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Like a good fisherman, I have set my bait and now patiently await a response.

Unelemental said:
Interesting theory, though I would expect the Procession to be a strictly worse version of the Geas, which it admittedly is in many aspects, but the Forebear himself agrees that his job is at least mostly morally unambiguous. So I'm doubtful about a connection to the Accursed himself. That the Procession was cast by the Hidden Ones, whoever they are, sounds quite likely though. They are supposed to be very powerful and at fault for how much Hunger's life sucked, and Procession also sounds like a recipe for suckage.
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The connection is that if you're real good at casting curses, you don't just curse the Accursed one time and then never again, you curse anyone and everyone you feel like cursing. You curse random people as practice and to test out variant curses. You curse people for laughs, because suffering is funny. You curse people who annoy you. You curse any actual enemies you have. You curse people ironically. "You're a hero? Here's Procession and an infinite supply of heroing to do, have fun with that, now fuck off. We'll meet again in a trillion years once you reach the bottom-most layer of hell, aka right here in front of me."

...

Maybe the reason Hunger is so reckless is some part of him remembers dying and reincarnating millions of times as the Forebear so he just can't take it all that seriously.
 
Mr. Prokosch said:
Hunger learned that the Forebearer needed some friends who are cool to make his endless task less shitty.

We need to pick up companions of the king for mental health if nothing else. Gotta take something that matters to us along for the ride.
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Forebear clearly had companions - just look at his skills. It's just that they are either not present yet at the moment we've seen or are already dead.
 
Being cast into a Procession or similar scenario would be a good explanation for being Isekai'd in the first place? It just seems to me like it would fit the weird scenario of the Tyrant being able to kill or restrict the local fate, but not being able to kill some dude and his ragtag resistance.

As it would mean the world and circumstance was specifically measured to be within Hunger's ability to navigate and "complete" while also teaching similar lessons that the Forebear learned, will and heart turning diamond under constant pressure but all else needing to be ground out, or cut away, in the course of the quest.
 
agumentic said:
Forebear clearly had companions - just look at his skills. It's just that they are either not present yet at the moment we've seen or are already dead.
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The Forebear actually does somewhat regularly face foes that are mightier than him so it is possible that he would appoint companions during such occasions. The Option even grants companions rank just a step below his own.

And I just can't imagine the sort of rank one would gain from being the hero of over a thousand worlds and then forming a dynasty to rule over that world unto its peak.
 
Mannan said:
The Forebear actually does somewhat regularly face foes that are mightier than him so it is possible that he would appoint companions during such occasions. The Option even grants companions rank just a step below his own.

And I just can't imagine the sort of rank one would gain from being the hero of over a thousand worlds and then forming a dynasty to rule over that world unto its peak.
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The worlds are (almost always) separate universes as well! Though he does spend an unusual - or perhaps appropriate - amount of time in the Foresleep!
 
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