In a 'Tower' build vote, Hunger's not thinking "I actually know I can solve this Decimation problem without disaster befalling the Resistance in my absence." He doesn't know he can do that, any more than we can. He has decided he can do that. That he will somehow Find A Way, even if he doesn't know what it is yet when he only has two days to figure shit out.
The basis of his decision is not a disregard for the risks of the situation, however, it's the belief in his own abilities. And sure, you can say that it's reckless of him to assume that he is good enough, but that basis remains very real - Hunger is, in fact, very good, and the possibility of him being good enough to handle this situation is not some entirely far-off dream.

I think running a character that believes in his abilities and supports that belief like that is entirely possible and there's nothing bad about it.
Dangerous words to mention, though I suppose we don't have a supremely capable previous incarnation to support that sort of confidence. ...We don't, right?
Who knows? Forebear was seemingly a great fan of Odyssial's school of doing things and Hunger is shaping to be a worthy successor.
 
As a side note, it seems that Tears+Tower+OaF unlocking the title [King of Winter] is another Special Advancement, which is pretty useful. (A previous example of a Special Advancement would be Trinity.)

Means that when the Eye of the Storm grabs OaF for its next EFB, on top of the +1 External Rank and +2 Military Rank it grants directly, we'll get the power of a Special Advancement on top, which really shouldn't be underestimated.
 
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I don't believe many people have spared a thought for Letrizia and her synergy with a high octane Rank boost via King and Court. Setting aside the obvious personal synergy with Sharpbright, her imaginary element allows her to research and investigate Rank and astral pressure as well. Keep in mind The Walls of Myth have been hinted at containing power similar to, but beyond what we associate with Rank.

She may well be able to decipher some answers if we go check them out, rather than just surface level insights. Going beyond this Geas realm we may have to augment our own rank with such enhanced capabilities to keep up, and this is likely a step in the right direction.
 
Need to catch up on the thread, but some preliminary thoughts:

Why didn't anyone tell me we could get more Empyrean Signs? That makes it basically a whole magic system, which changes the equation considerably!

Anyway, I find myself with a bit of a problem. My Mage Gang and Shiny Gang sensibilities love Eye of the Storm to death, but as a Moral Gang member I dislike the idea of putting the well-being of billions on a gamble.

But the only option here that doesn't do that is King and Court, aka the "Two sword EFBs option."

I kinda wish there was a Tears+OaF option, but then I'd be voting against Empyrean Signs!

At least all the blurbs this time are cool AF. Always nice to read a top-tier Rihaku blurb.
 
Need to catch up on the thread, but some preliminary thoughts:

Why didn't anyone tell me we could get more Empyrean Signs? That makes it basically a whole magic system, which changes the equation considerably!

Anyway, I find myself with a bit of a problem. My Mage Gang and Shiny Gang sensibilities love Eye of the Storm to death, but as a Moral Gang member I dislike the idea of putting the well-being of billions on a gamble.

But the only option here that doesn't do that is King and Court, aka the "Two sword EFBs option."

I kinda wish there was a Tears+OaF option, but then I'd be voting against Empyrean Signs!

At least all the blurbs this time are cool AF. Always nice to read a top-tier Rihaku blurb.

For what it' worth, a direct boost to Gisena's rank like this should be able to augment her power over her own ring's domain, which have considerable magical power. Time and mind could augment are learning rates for our other magic like Edeldross which now can let us activate graces, perhaps even Praxis though I think that's a long shot, and maybe it'll let her build a core panoply for us considering the power of artifice. This will only ever get better as we go up in rank too, so their's a lot of lateral power both short and long term that can be gained from Companions of the King.
 
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For what it' worth, a direct boost to Gisena's rank like this should be able to augment her power over her own ring's domain, which have considerable magical power. Time and mind could augment are learning rates for our other magic, perhaps even Praxis though I think that's a long shot, and maybe it'll let her build a core panoply for us considering the power of artifice. This will only ever get better as we go up in rank too, so their's a lot of lateral power both short and long term that can be gained from Companions of the King.
Yeah, you can't increase Praxis learning speed with mere time or mind magic
Rihaku confirmed that somewhere I think.
 
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[X] Eye of the Storm


I might be showing my hand a little too early, but Tower/Tears is the avenue that would be most exciting for me to read about.

I did consider offering to sell my vote + Omake Power but I think I still have some energy left to advocate for Tower

Doesn't matter what the press says. Doesn't matter what the politicians of the mobs say. Doesn't matter if the whole country decides that something wrong is something right.​
This nation was founded on one principle above all else: the requirement that we stand up for what we believe, no matter the odds of the consequences.​
When the mob and the press and the whole world tell you to move, your job is to plant yourself like a tree beside the river of truth, and tell the whole world
--"No, you move."​
 
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First three done, @Aabcehmu :

[ ] Conspiracyworm: Consider the knife, the worming doubt. All plans have flaws, all organizations have moles. In finding this your element excels, a stream of semi-autonomous worms that burrow and spread. In direct combat they are easily extinguished with both blade and spell. Instead, the optimal usage of your element involves scattering and dispersing, intuitively tunneling their way towards plans and plots that seek to harm or otherwise hinder your designs. Here, they wreak havoc, hounding sleeping targets with their teeth like flint specks and determination mechanical.

*Weak in direct combat. You can try throwing worms at your opponent, but they'll probably get set on fire. Exceptionally weak in combat against other Elementalists.
*Your worms operate without constant input, working to fulfill the spirit of your orders, and cleaving closely to your original vision as possible. Care not to throw them around carelessly, lest you change your mind and find yourself working against your own creations.
*Your worms also operate without fuel, effectively acting as perpetual machines. Not that that's particularly unique in the Voyaging Realm, but it's neat.
*+++ Intelligence, as your sensorium grows over time to accomodate the experiences of your element.
*Gain access to Advancements for your element. Some examples include: invisibility cloaking for your worms, central command systems and high-fidelity information relays, a Dragon-Worms form, and fourth-dimensional tunnelling.
*As the amount of worms in the world increase, circumstance bends in your favor. Worms will knock a pebble down a road-- and from chaos theory arises a marginally more beneficial life outcome. Scaled to millions of worms, acting every moment of every day, a trend emerges. Starts at + Luck, and scales with the intelligence and quantity of worms.

[ ] Noiseheart: In your Elementalist awakening, the truth of the world comes to you. There are no rules, no underlying rhythm by which the world beats. The heart of the world is noise, plain and simple. Nothing guarantees continuity from this moment to the next-- a radical existence that stutters from uncertainty to uncertainty. From the hand unclenched spills television static, sharp and jagged. This element casts no aspersions of structure, and as such is remarkably conducive to your will. Arbitrarily resistant, arbitrarily powerful, all consuming.

*A remarkably strong element. Operates by drawing matter from the Space Between Moments, casting the carefully constructed reality into sharp relief. Blocks up to transfinite strength, moves at transfinite speeds, attacks with transfinite force, so long as they are within your comprehension. Unfortunately, comprehension is likely to be a major limiter to your power until you acquire more potent forms of visualization or internal abstraction.
*Leaves deep imprints in the corpus of reality, converting it into base noise. What point is there returning to the scaffolding when true form has been unveiled? Works like strange matter, constantly spreading and infecting its surroundings. Luckily, you can control that too. Just be careful of collateral. Realistically speaking, even using this once will have catastrophic consequences unless you devise a way of containing your Noise.
*Weak to magics that come with fundamental assertions of their own internal existence.
*No other utility effects.

[ ] Burnquota: The nature of fire is simply to consume, gorging itself on fuel and food, and spitting out ash and smoke. Initially, your element comes out as a tide of flame, red-hot and aggressive. To use your true potential, a compact is made: Give me fuel, and I will fight. You wield my power. I do not wield yours. From this, a Spirit of harsh hunger looms from the bottom of your gullet, vociferous and voracious at the same time. Acquire experience, the richness of the world, whether it be through your eyes or the blaze. In exchange, power to shatter the sky.

*Become a Conjoiner, and create a compact with The Voyager. Beyond its desire to experience novel qualia, it is taciturn, speaking only when necessary and clipped even then. When prompted, it will vaguely direct you towards places with a high-probability of novel experience. It is important to note that it cares very little for intellectual exercise, only revelling in surface considerations of the sights and other senses. The farther it is from your catalogue of experience, the more power is returned. [Passive Depth Gain: Minimum. Event Depth Gain: High]
*You start with an Effect Potential of 7. Very rarely, you will receive opportunities to raise this coveted stat. Be sure to take them.
*Your flame directly scales with your invested Depth. At low levels, the fire is hot enough to reduce metal to slag and carbonize flesh. At higher levels, flash sear continents into deserts.
*Gain the ability to invest Depth into more esoteric effects related to your element, such as the Purifying Flame, a formulation of fire with a +30% effectiveness modifier against the undead! Notably, your Spirit heavily synergizes with the accumulation of new magic systems, both providing an intuitive understanding of the advancements with most potential and rewarding you heavily for the acquisition of said magic systems.
*++ Will.
*The Unifier and its inhabitant become aware of your precise location.
 
The basis of his decision is not a disregard for the risks of the situation, however, it's the belief in his own abilities. And sure, you can say that it's reckless of him to assume that he is good enough, but that basis remains very real - Hunger is, in fact, very good, and the possibility of him being good enough to handle this situation is not some entirely far-off dream.
Given that so much of his "good enough"-ness hinges on the ability to keep pulling powerups out of his ass on demand

There are a million reckless drivers out there who said "don't worry about it, I'm very alert and have good reflexes..." and they were right... until they crashed the car because in that particular moment they were wrong.

Endangering other people's lives out of a firm conviction that you are mighty enough to save them all, and that nothing will go seriously wrong in their absence while you do that, is reckless. You may well get away with it, do the impossible, go above and beyond... Until you can't anymore, or until you slip, or until the Apocryphal Curse drops one extra weight on you at the wrong moment, and it all falls apart.

I think running a character that believes in his abilities and supports that belief like that is entirely possible and there's nothing bad about it.
How big of a pile of corpses does it take before "there's nothing bad about it" becomes "there's something bad about it?"

I might be showing my hand a little too early, but Tower/Tears is the avenue that would be most exciting for me to read about.

I did consider offering to sell my vote + Omake Power but I think I still have some energy left to advocate for Tower

Doesn't matter what the press says. Doesn't matter what the politicians of the mobs say. Doesn't matter if the whole country decides that something wrong is something right.

This nation was founded on one principle above all else: the requirement that we stand up for what we believe, no matter the odds of the consequences.

When the mob and the press and the whole world tell you to move, your job is to plant yourself like a tree beside the river of truth, and tell the whole world

--"No, you move."
OK, that's just fucking ghoulish.

Hunger, in this mindset, is not telling them to move.

He is telling them to die.

He knows what he should do, and he's sure he didn't fuck up his estimates, and nothing significant will go wrong, and if he fucks it up and Decimates a billion people for a few days, eh, whatever, a few thousand casualties is a statistic.
 
Some valid points have been brought up about Hunger's characterization. Do we want him to be the type of person to gamble with the well-being of billions for a power-up? I have little doubt that Hunger can manage to make everything work out this time, but as with all moral questions the true question is not can, it's should.

OTOH, I don't want to vote for King and Court, going against the Mage options is completely against my ethos in this thread. If Runes of Mastery had won I could go King and Court and say "At least we have Rune King," but Chains of Fate does not allow that.

I have determined something though. IMO, All Under Heaven is the worst of the three. It gives no synergy at all, while Companions and Tears both have synergy effects with Chains. Furthermore, AUH retains the moral concerns of tower without getting the maximum shiny of Tower+Tears. If we have to be reckless, we can at least be reckless for something worth the risk - like say, becoming The King of Winter.

As such, I will take the Coward's way out.

[X] Eye of the Storm
[X] King and Court

For now. I think I'll have to actually make a decision eventually... If only we had OaF+Tears, or if Runes of Mastery had won...
 
An important thing to consider is that Eye of the Storm puts Adorie as the leader of our nations. What this means is that Apocryphal won't go after them first to hurt Hunger.

I'd call saving the nations from the Apocryphal Curse much more impactful than them losing a month of life, to say the least.

+/- Spare the Innocent: Can be trusted to oversee your Voyaging Realm conquests without the prospect of corruption or usurpation. Apocryphal Curse will ignore Realms so administered and target you directly.
(Below is from Eye of the Storm.)
*Recruits Adorie Mirellyian as a companion. She is an exceptionally capable administrator, orator, lore-master and vocalist, and would be happy to run your territories for you or help you research further Empyreal Signs.

And for those who argue against this because of the loss of ablative Apocryphal Armor, then you can't in good faith argue from the moral stance, tbh.
 
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Given that so much of his "good enough"-ness hinges on the ability to keep pulling powerups out of his ass on demand

There are a million reckless drivers out there who said "don't worry about it, I'm very alert and have good reflexes..." and they were right... until they crashed the car because in that particular moment they were wrong.

Endangering other people's lives out of a firm conviction that you are mighty enough to save them all, and that nothing will go seriously wrong in their absence while you do that, is reckless. You may well get away with it, do the impossible, go above and beyond... Until you can't anymore, or until you slip, or until the Apocryphal Curse drops one extra weight on you at the wrong moment, and it all falls apart.

How big of a pile of corpses does it take before "there's nothing bad about it" becomes "there's something bad about it?"

OK, that's just fucking ghoulish.

Hunger, in this mindset, is not telling them to move.

He is telling them to die.

He knows what he should do, and he's sure he didn't fuck up his estimates, and nothing significant will go wrong, and if he fucks it up and Decimates a billion people for a few days, eh, whatever, a few thousand casualties is a statistic.
I'm happy to engage with your arguments: I'm compiling a list of points made in favor of each option since the most recent update! But maybe we don't have to pretend that the actual vote cast by questers has a moral valence? It isn't "ghoulish" to want to read a different kind of story than you do.

The fact that Rihaku has positioned the buildvote as a choice that the questers are making about Hunger's underlying mindset means that we are choosing default features of hunger's psychology. Questers who want to pursue more civic-minded options are welcome to vote for them when we are role-playing Hunger's actual choices. But this isn't a plot-vote where Hunger is making a moral choice. This is a build vote where we get to pick what kind of character would be interesting to role play.

That's a distinction that makes me less and less receptive to the moral panic about the idea that Hunger "will frequently do what is best for the world or for those he cares about (including himself) rather than what is best for the nation."
 
I would genuinely put weight behind a Tears +OaF or Companions + Tears vote if they were available.

Simon really put together the kind of person that Hunger would turn into based on the implications of the options we have 10/10 ugh.

In the future let's take a breather if possible. We need like a solid 2-3 updates of calm again to recalibrate and plan for the future, because railroading ourselves down a road of "lesser evil" type choices really sucks :/.

I don't really know how we're gonna get any peace on that level without completely overwhelming both Ber and Aobaru's future problems.


Plus the whole billions of lives at stake thing :/

I mean, if the thread does want Hunger to view his individual righteousness and vengeance as above the lives of others in a grand scale then by all means we can go that way.

However, I myself would rather have a man who realizes that he hasn't yet hit the threshold ls simply telling the world to "MOVE" and have it move.

Hunger just does not have the power, knowledge, or time to actually back up that kind of mindset at this juncture.

It takes risks where none are needed and lives where no one needs to die.

That's my ultimate objection from a moral perspective. We are at the crossroads of possible unnecessary suffering and regulated, conscious responsibility.

Obviously voting for Towers has not IRL bearing on anyone, but the person Hunger would be in the case of such characterization is not someone I myself would enjoy playing unless we all decided to go full villain with it.

Overall I think Hunger's desire for vengeance should not trump his concern for the lives of past and present companions and the people that have thrust the role of ruler ship upon him.

He won't be in this world forever, as the Geas will whisk him away eventually, but I truly hope that by the end of his adventures here he can carry his regrets with pride, knowing he stayed the course in not becoming the callous, Tyrannical figure he could have become in this moment.

Can we have Adorie as ruler of our realms eventually without picking the Tears option? Or are we locked out of any indirect Adorie-based rulership entirely?

@Rihaku ?
 
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[X] Eye of the Storm

cogent points are brought up about adorie protecting the masses from apocryphal procs, which are arguably worse than facing decimation
 
Given that so much of his "good enough"-ness hinges on the ability to keep pulling powerups out of his ass on demand

There are a million reckless drivers out there who said "don't worry about it, I'm very alert and have good reflexes..." and they were right... until they crashed the car because in that particular moment they were wrong.

Endangering other people's lives out of a firm conviction that you are mighty enough to save them all, and that nothing will go seriously wrong in their absence while you do that, is reckless. You may well get away with it, do the impossible, go above and beyond... Until you can't anymore, or until you slip, or until the Apocryphal Curse drops one extra weight on you at the wrong moment, and it all falls apart.
I am not saying it's not reckless - the option straight up says that it enhances Hunger's recklessness. I am saying that this recklessness does not mean that he is disregarding the odds or doesn't contemplate the consequences of that recklessness, it means that he also believes that the odds are good enough and that his abilities are high enough to avoid the consequences. Which is two very different things for a character.
How big of a pile of corpses does it take before "there's nothing bad about it" becomes "there's something bad about it?"
Ah, big enough that it makes the story worse, I guess? Which is an incalculable and a largely subjective amount. Deaths of the fictional people do not exactly carry a moral weight for the real people that risk them.
 
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Some valid points have been brought up about Hunger's characterization. Do we want him to be the type of person to gamble with the well-being of billions for a power-up? I have little doubt that Hunger can manage to make everything work out this time, but as with all moral questions the true question is not can, it's should.

OTOH, I don't want to vote for King and Court, going against the Mage options is completely against my ethos in this thread. If Runes of Mastery had won I could go King and Court and say "At least we have Rune King," but Chains of Fate does not allow that.

I have determined something though. IMO, All Under Heaven is the worst of the three. It gives no synergy at all, while Companions and Tears both have synergy effects with Chains. Furthermore, AUH retains the moral concerns of tower without getting the maximum shiny of Tower+Tears. If we have to be reckless, we can at least be reckless for something worth the risk - like say, becoming The King of Winter.

As such, I will take the Coward's way out.

[X] Eye of the Storm
[X] King and Court

For now. I think I'll have to actually make a decision eventually... If only we had OaF+Tears, or if Runes of Mastery had won...

From the perspective of a Companions/AuH fence-sitter...

The Synergy we get from Companions is 1 Int, 1 Wits, 1 Charisma, and 1 Luck. All Defeating Stance has bigger returns than that, and All Under Heaven has ADS basically on speed dial with better Curse Mitigation options. An Esoteric defense powerful enough to counteract rank like the ADS Power of Ruin defense(One of the Example Opalescent Tower Signs) has the potential to provide Curse Mitigation if they are in any way similar. From a Synergy Standpoint though Companions of the King has a very specific demand to build on it to keep up with a Progression Cursebearer level adversary barring unforseen Arete advancements. Philosopher's Wreath. So it's not all bad. If we're going to invest in our companions and reject the reckless incentive structures of the Ring of Hunger, we should do it whole hog. We may need to rush Pillars of Creation and do our best to survive until we can get it if the Letrezia/Companions synergy doesn't bear sufficient fruit.

We're at 5 Int if Companions wins. 6 If our next Int gaining advancement is PW.

Our Buff Outlook Looks like this with a 40 percent all stats buff from Companions:

1+-.15(Punctured Soul)+.6(Silver of Evening+Edeldross Basic Enhancement+Edeldross Adept)+.4(Companions of the King) = 1.85

6*1.85 = 11.1 Intelligence, or 1110% Advancement Boost on Edeldross targeted Philosopher's Wreath

We'd have parity with the Ring of Hunger and be able to get competitive returns without reckless risktaking if we managed Philosophers Wreath immediately after companions of the King.
 
I really need to back off of this thread and cool off, i'm getting so attached to the idea of Hunger as a moral actor that I'm starting to feel like I'd either lose a lot of interest in the quest, which I'm actually really sad to say because Rihaku is one of my favorite writers and quest runners and it really wouldn't be his fault at all or start rooting for someone to finally take him down for the good of the omniverse if he was the type of person to take up the risks to all these people presented by Tower because I just can't see him as the type of person I'd be able to invest emotionally in or feel positively about at all about anymore.

I know that's definitely a overreaction, as horrifying as I think something as awful as risking a decimator affliction is, but it's hard one for me to reason myself out of because it's emotionally rooted.
 
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