A Light from the Shadow (Tolkien CKII)

Where is the Master Palantir? The one that can reach to Tol Eressea?
The Master-Stone never actually made it out of Tor-Eressea. The only "master" stone in Middle Earth (on account of it somehow trumping the other six brought from Numenor) is the Ithil-Stone.

Unless I have my facts wrong, which isn't unknown to happen.


Apparently, the Osgiliath-stone was the big, master stone that couldn't be carried by single people. It was lost a while ago though, during the Gondor Kin-Strife civil war.
 
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The Master-Stone never actually made it out of Tor-Eressea. The only "master" stone in Middle Earth (on account of it somehow trumping the other six brought from Numenor) is the Ithil-Stone.

Unless I have my facts wrong, which isn't unknown to happen.

One - and only one - of the Seven brought to Middle-Earth has the ability to contact the Stone on Tol Eressea. That's the one I'm inquiring about.
 
[X] Gaze into the Orthanc-Stone
-[X] But first, politely request a summary of Saruman's experiences with it, to know what to expect.

I was going to vote against not doing it anyway because that is player knowledge and there is no good reason we should refuse in character.
 
One - and only one - of the Seven brought to Middle-Earth has the ability to contact the Stone on Tol Eressea. That's the one I'm inquiring about.

That was the Osgiliath-Stone lost during the Kin-Strife. Perhaps the Elostrion stone in the keeping of Cirdan could also reach Eressea.

To make things more difficult the text doesn't indicate if the stones could contact Eressea before the Sinking of Numenor or After. It is quite possible that contact with the Undying Lands is simply not possible as they are now Beyond the Circles of the World.
 
[X] Gaze into the Orthanc-Stone
-[X] But first, politely request a summary of Saruman's experiences with it, to know what to expect.
 
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To make things more difficult the text doesn't indicate if the stones could contact Eressea before the Sinking of Numenor or After. It is quite possible that contact with the Undying Lands is simply not possible as they are now Beyond the Circles of the World.

Both Before and After. It's just that Before, most Numenoreans had no desire to talk to anyone on Tol Eressea, and afterwards, Elendil had to organize the Last Alliance vs. Sauron.
 
[X] Politely Refuse to gaze.
-[X] "I'm sorry, friend, but I do not trust my strength of heart to see into this stone safely"
 
[X] Gaze into the Orthanc-Stone
-[X] But first, politely request a summary of Saruman's experiences with it, to know what to expect.

Thee are many things that we might see with a palantir. Some good, some bad, some indifferent. None that have any inherent power over us, however. There is no harm in just looking. For now, at least.
 
[X] Politely Refuse to gaze.
-[X] "I'm sorry, friend, but I do not trust my strength of heart to see into this stone safely"
 
[X] Gaze into the Orthanc-Stone
-[X] But first, politely request a summary of Saruman's experiences with it, to know what to expect.
 
Just blitzed through the index to get to here. Wonderful stuff, looking forward to reading more.

[X] Politely Refuse to gaze.
-[X] "I'm sorry, friend, but I do not trust my strength of heart to see into this stone safely"

Part of this is pragmatism: You don't know who else is watching, and if Sauron feels his might is threatened by the addition of another Istari, he might react harshly. Right now focusing on preparations at Moria is most important, not impressing Saruman-Senpai.
 
[X] Politely Refuse to gaze.
-[X] "I'm sorry, friend, but I do not trust my strength of heart to see into this stone safely"
 
Just blitzed through the index to get to here. Wonderful stuff, looking forward to reading more.

[X] Politely Refuse to gaze.
-[X] "I'm sorry, friend, but I do not trust my strength of heart to see into this stone safely"

Part of this is pragmatism: You don't know who else is watching, and if Sauron feels his might is threatened by the addition of another Istari, he might react harshly. Right now focusing on preparations at Moria is most important, not impressing Saruman-Senpai.
That doesn't make much sense considering that everyone relevant already knows about us. Our introduction was pretty obvious, especially on the metaphysical stage. Sauron is already aware.

Plus, as I said, the Palantiri are not the One Ring. He can't do much other than try to glare at us and divert our visions to what he wants, something that Denethor managed to hold out against for years. We can definitely handle ONE look.

Provided he even has a Palantir with him in Dol Guldur.
 
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Assuming Sauron doesn't have a palantir is more likely to bite us than assuming he does.
That's not the point. The point is that you and everyone voting against looking is doing that for meta reasons based on the films' depiction of the Palantiri as ways for Sauron to project his will. They aren't. And we're also underestimating our own ability and will, considering that word of god has already said we can handle the One Ring just fine.

With Sauron no less likely to know about us than Elrond, Galadriel, Gandalf and every other big player in Midle Earth, not looking only has meta reasons for making sense (insufficient reasons too, as far as I can tell). We're a redeemed Balrog who wants to make a difference. We can't do that if we chicken out from what is, in essence, nothing else but a scrying/scouting mission with the possibility of a staredown on the side.

What I'm reading from all the arguments against looking is that we're somehow guarranteed to do worse than not just Denethor (who managed to use the stone a whole bunch of times without issue, until he despaired over losing both sons), but the arguments seem to assume we'd do worse than Pippin did when he looked in the orb (and even he managed to get a glimpse into Sauron's plans).
 
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Assuming Sauron doesn't have a palantir is more likely to bite us than assuming he does.
This might be a good situation to face a weak version of Sauron over a distant and easy to break connection.

We have Saruman at full power and uncorrupted behind us and if the Istari knew that Sauron is already growing in power things could be set in motion earlier.
 
That's not the point. The point is that you and everyone voting against looking is doing that for meta reasons based on the films' depiction of the Palantiri as ways for Sauron to project his will. They aren't. And we're also underestimating our own ability and will, considering that word of god has already said we can handle the One Ring just fine.

With Sauron no less likely to know about us than Elrond, Galadriel, Gandalf and every other big player in Midle Earth, not looking only has meta reasons for making sense. We're a redeemed Balrog who wants to make a difference. We can't do that if we chicken out from what is, in essence, nothing else but a scrying/scouting mission with the possibility of a staredown on the side.

What I'm reading from all the arguments against looking is that we're somehow guarranteed to do worse than not just Denethor (who managed to use the stone a whole bunch of times without issue, until he despaired over losing both sons), but the arguments seem to assume we'd do worse than Pippin did when he looked in the orb (and even he managed to get a glimpse into Sauron's plans).
Did you actually read my vote, you idiot? I'm voting to look into it. That I'm also saying we should expect Sauron to have a palantir to avoid being morons that believes everything we see unfailingly, like Denethor did. Caution is not a failing.
 
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Did you actually read my vote, you idiot? I'm voting to look into it. That I'm also saying he should expect Sauron to have a palantir is merely avoiding being a moron that believes everything he sees unfailingly, like Denethor did. Caution is not a failing.
That's why I said you and everyone who voted against, not you and everyone else.

Do try not to flame by means of "you idiot" or variations thereof, yes? It's rude.
 
That's why I said you and everyone who voted against, not you and everyone else.

Do try not to flame by means of "you idiot" or variations thereof, yes? It's rude.
It's not flaming, you're arguing in bad faith. Or fail utterly at reading comprehension. Either way, I'm not sorry for my word choice.

I did not say I was treating this like the movies, and neither did most of the voters. You saying that literally everyone voting against using it is treating things that way is bullshit.
 
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It's not flaming, you're arguing in bad faith.

I did not say I was treating this like the movies, and neither did most of the voters. You saying that literally everyone is treating things that was is bullshit.
And I can just as easily say you're taking what I said out of context, while calling me an idiot for whatever reason.

Whatever. I've said my piece.
 
You can, but you'd not have a leg to stand on, in this context.

Also, posts edited for clarity, if you care to look.
Comes across as retconning our exchange to me, but since you're so insistent, let me "clarify" things as well.

The people voting against looking have consistently used the argument of "I have not the strength of heart." This either means they're afraid to witness Sauron's true form (which has no IC justification, considering what he is and what we are) or they're afraid Sauron will try to mind/heart-whammy them.

Since the movies are literally the only instance where the Palantir is depicted as a way to mind-warp people - and even capable of causing physical effects, like making the Evenstar fall from Aragorn's neck - my arguments definitely do have more than one leg to stand on.

Just because I happened to only quote YOUR post on account of it being the last in the thread when I replied doesn't change that. And you did say it would "bite us" as if Sauron could burn us with his mind or something. I apologize for misunderstanding that, but I stand by everything else.

On a slightly less related note, the way you so easily insult people while you're at least as responsible for whatever misunderstanding is going on is really bad form.
 
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