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A Light from the Shadow (Tolkien CKII)

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Nope because OOC it doesn't have one, it's just one of the "Dwarves have Khuzdul but we don't know much about it". Notably because the lexicon is even poorer than Adunaic so I have not enough elements to build names.
 
DragonParadox said:
No, that would have only been possible in the brief window of time after the darkening of Valinor but before their final death.
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The sun and moon are still fruit though, so presumably they have seeds also, and could conceivably sprout if fed the light of the jewels.

That would leave the rest of the world in something of a rut though.

In any case, Calagil is basically something between these two?

 
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Karmic Acumen said:
The sun and moon are still fruit though, so presumably they have seeds also, and could conceivably sprout if fed the light of the jewels.
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The Moon and Sun may have seeds but they have been poisoned by the Unlight of Ungoliat. I suspect they would not bear the touch of a silmaril. The greatest proof of this is that at the end of the First Age the Valar had a silmaril (the one Beren and Luthien recovered) yet they did not revive the Trees with it, instead setting it wandering upon the sky as a star.
 
DragonParadox said:
The Moon and Sun may have seeds but they have been poisoned by the Unlight of Ungoliat. I suspect they would not bear the touch of a silmaril. The greatest proof of this is that at the end of the First Age the Valar had a silmaril (the one Beren and Luthien recovered) yet they did not revive the Trees with it, instead setting it wandering upon the sky as a star.
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Or just one wasn't enough. They asked Feanor for all three of them, didn't they?

On an unrelated note, can you people imagine how hard it is to find a mystical sword that doesn't suffer from the most impractical design? I'm having more trouble finding a shiny sword (that isn't from Type-MOON) than I did finding pictures for the Blue Wizards!

Incidentally, here they are.
I figure the latter could be him either manifesting his presence from the Unseen world, or alternatively that's an unhoused Umaia that seeks or achieved redemption by helping the Valar's envoy.
 
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Nice although in this quest Alatar and Pallado received hroar adapted to their mission so respectively a black and an Easterling miens and I'm following the fanon about Pallando being a servant of Mandos rather than having two followers of Orome (Blame MERP, and Decipher, and The One Ring, and GW LOTR strategy game)

Also Pallando could be simply casting a spell. The Flood of the Bruinen appeared as riders and their horses after all.

As for Calagil I admit I'm just using Anduril's model in my head with perhaps a sun and moon symbol somewhere on the blade. It remains one of the most practical fantasy swords after all
 
ganonso said:
Nice although in this quest Alatar and Pallado received hroar adapted to their mission so respectively a black and an Easterling miens and I'm following the fanon about Pallando being a servant of Mandos rather than having two followers of Orome (Blame MERP, and Decipher, and The One Ring, and GW LOTR strategy game)

Also Pallando could be simply casting a spell. The Flood of the Bruinen appeared as riders and their horses after all.

As for Calagil I admit I'm just using Anduril's model in my head with perhaps a sun and moon symbol somewhere on the blade. It remains one of the most practical fantasy swords after all
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Hmm...

So more like this then?







 
Something I just saw in one of Karmic posts

Orcs in Rohan after the War of Dwarves and Orcs is canon. That's the only notable fact in Brytta's biography (and they caused trouble enough for his son to be involved as well). In my quest I judged that the retaking of Moria has the Orcs even more freaked out than in OTL and they deserted their holds even more thoroughly.

Basically it's not a planned invasion but rather hordes of frightened Orcs descending from the mountains in such numbers Brytta decided it was better to go to Helm's Deep and harass their rear rather than try to defend the wooden walls of Edoras.

The main reason you see more initiative from the Forces of Evil now is that Sauron has a somewhat coherent plan. Good is subtler but the fact that Harad doesn't accept the rule of the Nazgul and is only restrained by fear and the Dunedain are gearing to retake Arnor is a sign things change;

I mean in canon the Dunedain and Rivendell and Lindon never had the idea of a combined strike to purge Eriador. Or Elladan and Elrohir to go wraith-hunting. They waited till the Ring was found and Aragorn fell in love with Arwen to get their act together.
 
ganonso said:
Something I just saw in one of Karmic posts

Orcs in Rohan after the War of Dwarves and Orcs is canon. That's the only notable fact in Brytta's biography (and they caused trouble enough for his son to be involved as well). In my quest I judged that the retaking of Moria has the Orcs even more freaked out than in OTL and they deserted their holds even more thoroughly.

Basically it's not a planned invasion but rather hordes of frightened Orcs descending from the mountains in such numbers Brytta decided it was better to go to Helm's Deep and harass their rear rather than try to defend the wooden walls of Edoras.

The main reason you see more initiative from the Forces of Evil now is that Sauron has a somewhat coherent plan. Good is subtler but the fact that Harad doesn't accept the rule of the Nazgul and is only restrained by fear and the Dunedain are gearing to retake Arnor is a sign things change;

I mean in canon the Dunedain and Rivendell and Lindon never had the idea of a combined strike to purge Eriador. Or Elladan and Elrohir to go wraith-hunting. They waited till the Ring was found and Aragorn fell in love with Arwen to get their act together.
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All of which makes sense... if it had taken more than one year for all of it to happen. :p I'm afraid this isn't something I'll budge on, though everyone else is, of course, free to disagree.

Also, an equally valid argument would be that most of the orcs were slaughtered at Moria (by us) or claimed (by us) instead of the bulk of Azog's remaining forces hunkering down in Khazad-Dum or running off. So the numbers that fled south wouldn't be so large in comparison to canon.

EDIT

Basically, there were around 10,000 displaced orcs in Canon and they caused trouble for two generations. And they were never out to conquer Rohan, but to resettle in the White Mountains. Nothing happened in this quest that would inflate those numbers.

Sauron wouldn't have gotten around to beating any coordination into them either, nor change their priority from "desperate survival" to "conquest."
 
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ganonso said:
Where these Orcs come from, you know all too well. The war between them and the dwarves has driven them from their mountain's fastnesses. They think that in the lowlands and the plains, the dread Khazad won't follow them. It was a successful plan and indeed they roam the plains and have even threatened the capital until King Brytta made a fighting retreat for Helm's Deep. There he plans to let them break against the walls until winter come and then strike them as they are weakened by the cold.
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Orc Captain: Azog had been killed and there are no news from Moria! Wait there are rumors the Dark Fire has slaughtered everybody and the Dwarves have retaken the city.
Orc Leader: Are we not squatting in a Dwarf fortress right now? What if they come for us next! We must flee, take everyone, perhaps they will be too busy with reclaiming their strongholds to pursue us.

Then

Orc Captain: Well nobody has pursued us, the folks here seems easy picking. Perhaps things are looking well.
Orc grunt: Great news captain the king has fled the capital.
Orc Captain: To where?
Orc Grunt: Some place named Helm's Deep
Orc Captain: Better besiege it and not let an army in our rear. Say to the other captains the fortress is full of loot (they always are) and we will share if we triumph.

Brytta: I can't believe they are dumb enough to siege the fortress. We have enough food to replay Helm's Winter so let's them continue.

Saruman: So what you Dunlendings say to have the King of Rohan literally owe you his life while we take the Orcs between hammer and anvil?
Braca: Not a bad idea actually. Orcs are bad neighbors.

Tl/DR: That's not a war of conquest, it's giant hordes of pillagers ravaging the countryside and pushing the King to retreat at Helm's Deep.
 
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I will also spoil things by saying the Orc move is really dumb. The intelligent thing to do would have been to bunker down in their strongholds.

That's your Orc crisis alright as they are fleeing like rats from their defensible places to present huge but easier targets in the fields. Yeah that sucks for the Rohirrim civilians but the slaughter Braca and Saruman will be able to do at Helm's Deep will nearly equal the Battle of the East-Gate.
 
ganonso said:
I will also spoil things by saying the Orc move is really dumb. The intelligent thing to do would have been to bunker down in their strongholds.

That's your Orc crisis alright as they are fleeing like rats from their defensible places to present huge but easier targets in the fields. Yeah that sucks for the Rohirrim civilians but the slaughter Braca and Saruman will be able to do at Helm's Deep will nearly equal the Battle of the East-Gate.
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None of what you said would work unless the orcs were moving as a concentrated force instead of scattered bands the whole time.

Also, Brytta's decision to go to Helm's Deep all of a sudden comes off as terribly arbitrary considering how sudden it was. Especially since he is basically moving his forces in light of this coming after a time of nothing but Dunland causing strife with them, which is par for the course. This means that their forces will be of at least 10,000 all on their own (probably much larger, and coordinated in light of those same raids). Moreover, the majority of their forces will be cavalry. Huddling in Helm's Deep basically discounts this force. It would have made more sense for the Rohirrim to have spent the last year constantly harassing the attacking force and most likely wiping it out before it was half-way through the region.

Rohan was able to muster a force of 6,000 pure cavalry to provide support at the Pellenor fields, and this was after the fight at Helm's deep. Also, it wasn't everything they could have mustered given more time. Where things were far more even in Canon War of the Ring and necessitated no Dunland help at all.

In light of this, you're making Rohan out to be either:
  • Strategically incompetent: otherwise they would realize they have in excess of 10,000 cavalry and they could wipe out the invaders since they're so conveniently clustered together through some incredibly lucky providence. And they will have well over 10,000 cavalry since they haven't been gutted by anything like the War of the Ring. If the orcs aren't all together, raiding would only be easier for Rohan.
  • Terribly undermanned: which is impossible considering that conflict before this was comparatively mild and only consisted of cross-raiding vs. Dunland in the West, which will only have served to have them alert and coordinated instead, as mentioned above.
Now, if the orcs had had a generation or so to harry Rohan enough to achieve something at least approaching force parity, a retreat to Helm's Deep would make sense. As it is, the fact that the orcs somehow traveled in a single force of 10,000 should have seen them wiped out two months into this incredibly eventful year. At most.

TL;DR: Historical context does not agree with your assessment of the situation.

Incidentally: Dailight. Orcs can't move or do anything while the sun is out. This would act as a massive force multiplier for Rohan as well, considering Rohan's competence at night-time cavalry ambushes as well.
 
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Karmic Acumen said:
None of what you said would work unless the orcs were moving as a concentrated force instead of scattered bands the whole time.

Also, Brytta's decision to go to Helm's Deep all of a sudden comes off as terribly arbitrary considering how sudden it was. Especially since he is basically moving his forces in light of this coming after a time of nothing but Dunland causing strife with them, which is par for the course. This means that their forces will be of at least 10,000 all on their own (probably much larger, and coordinated in light of those same raids). Moreover, the majority of their forces will be cavalry. Huddling in Helm's Deep basically discounts this force. It would have made more sense for the Rohirrim to have spent the last year constantly harassing the attacking force and most likely wiping it out before it was half-way through the region.

Rohan was able to muster a force of 6,000 to provide support at the Pellenor fields, and this was after the fight at Helm's deep. Also, it wasn't everything they couldn't mustered given more time. Where things were far more even in Canon War of the Ring and necessitated no Dunland help at all.

In light of this, you're making Rohan out to be either:
  • Strategically incompetent: otherwise they would realize they have in excess of 10,000 cavalry and they could wipe out the invaders since they're so conveniently clustered together through some incredibly lucky providence. And they will have well over 10,000 cavalry since they haven't been gutted by anything like the War of the Ring. If they aren't all together, raiding would only be easier for Rohan.
  • Terribly undermanned: which is impossible considering that conflict before this was comparatively mild and only consisted of cross-raiding vs. Dunland in the West, which will only have served to have them alert and coordinated instead, as mentioned above.
Now, if the orcs had had a generation or so to harry Rohan enough to achieve something at least approaching force parity, a retreat to Helm's Deep would make sense. As it is, the fact that the orcs somehow traveled in a single force of 10,000 should have seen them wiped out two months into this incredibly eventful year. At most.

TL;DR: Historical context does not agree with your assessment of the situation.

Incidentally: Dailight. Orcs can't move or do anything while the sun is out. This would act as a massive force multiplier for Rohan as well, considering Rohan's competence at night-time cavalry ambushes as well.
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are you done nitpicking or will you just let ganon write
 
I think we'll have to agree to disagree on that count. Orcs managed in canon to be a serious problem in Rohan for 50years, killing two of their kings, and they were less numerous than in this quest. The Misty Mountains are near empty right now.

The only thing that grates me is we could have had this conversation well, when I posted the Dream and Events segment, or when the thread decided than my presentations of Braca and Morwen were apparently enough for no questions were asked.

Well that and the fact the situation I handed you there is better than canon. I played it extremely easy on the Diplomacy front by having the elven-lords at the very least having no problems with your Orcs. I actually toyed with the idea of having the White Council basically accepting you but not your charges or Saruman as the envoy of Aule directly petitions you vacate Khazad-Dum.

Or hell not interpreting your redemption as a sign to begin his own.

You know incidentally another thing I abandonned: Maglor captured by Sauron in the dungeons of Dol Guldur and then freed with the knowledge that you, one of his father's killers, was alive and your location.

You will have by 2805 at the very last Eriador purged from evil and on the way to be Arnor again. At least a Nazgul dead and when someone will get to Harad, Sauron will have no allies except the Easterlings, Gondor will have at least the Fiefdoms completely free or at beast Umbar again and Mirkwood will be Greenwood again.

I think there is a fundamental disconnect here too. Things don't need your character intervention to succeed. Rohan's situation is because they rolled a critical failure and I thought "The War of Dwarves and Orcs has worse consequences than in OTL" which after that gave me the whole idea of Saruman helping Dunland in a non-evil way.

Except dramatic misfortune Saruman and the Dunlendings will manage without you just as Gandalf and Glorfindel would have managed without you in Arnor and Galadriel and Thranduil will manage against Dol Guldur forces.

Yes several sections of the world are on fire. It's normal, if only one of them was you, the players, would have no choices to make. Rohan, Harad and Arnor were intended to provide three possible locations and stories different enough from one another.

the thread decided to ghost-hunt and rebuild Arnor. That's very nice, that opens nice possibilities down the line with Gondor succession and what that means for the Shire and Bree. It's very good, it upsets canon, just like a free Harad or a kingdom of Enedwaith would upset canon.

Sorry for the rant, I know it feels disjointed but while your counsel (and your images) are very precious and I'm sure I will make less lore blunders like the Iron Hills with you around, that's not the first time you took the situation for way worse than it did and I have on the other hand impression to have been very nice for a quest where you play a Balrog.
 
ganonso said:
I think we'll have to agree to disagree on that count. Orcs managed in canon to be a serious problem in Rohan for 50years, killing two of their kings, and they were less numerous than in this quest. The Misty Mountains are near empty right now.

The only thing that grates me is we could have had this conversation well, when I posted the Dream and Events segment, or when the thread decided than my presentations of Braca and Morwen were apparently enough for no questions were asked.

Well that and the fact the situation I handed you there is better than canon. I played it extremely easy on the Diplomacy front by having the elven-lords at the very least having no problems with your Orcs. I actually toyed with the idea of having the White Council basically accepting you but not your charges or Saruman as the envoy of Aule directly petitions you vacate Khazad-Dum.

Or hell not interpreting your redemption as a sign to begin his own.

You know incidentally another thing I abandonned: Maglor captured by Sauron in the dungeons of Dol Guldur and then freed with the knowledge that you, one of his father's killers, was alive and your location.

You will have by 2805 at the very last Eriador purged from evil and on the way to be Arnor again. At least a Nazgul dead and when someone will get to Harad, Sauron will have no allies except the Easterlings, Gondor will have at least the Fiefdoms completely free or at beast Umbar again and Mirkwood will be Greenwood again.

I think there is a fundamental disconnect here too. Things don't need your character intervention to succeed. Rohan's situation is because they rolled a critical failure and I thought "The War of Dwarves and Orcs has worse consequences than in OTL" which after that gave me the whole idea of Saruman helping Dunland in a non-evil way.

Except dramatic misfortune Saruman and the Dunlendings will manage without you just as Gandalf and Glorfindel would have managed without you in Arnor and Galadriel and Thranduil will manage against Dol Guldur forces.

Yes several sections of the world are on fire. It's normal, if only one of them was you, the players, would have no choices to make. Rohan, Harad and Arnor were intended to provide three possible locations and stories different enough from one another.

the thread decided to ghost-hunt and rebuild Arnor. That's very nice, that opens nice possibilities down the line with Gondor succession and what that means for the Shire and Bree. It's very good, it upsets canon, just like a free Harad or a kingdom of Enedwaith would upset canon.

Sorry for the rant, I know it feels disjointed but while your counsel (and your images) are very precious and I'm sure I will make less lore blunders like the Iron Hills with you around, that's not the first time you took the situation for way worse than it did and I have on the other hand impression to have been very nice for a quest where you play a Balrog.
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My apologies for grating on your nerves then. I'll not pick at things unless requested from here on.
 
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Karmic Acumen said:
My apologies for grating on your nerves then. I'll not pick at things unless requested from here on.
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It's not that bad. I would totally forgotten the Iron Hills without you (And now I know why, I was concentrating on the fact Thrain was apparently living in the Blue Mountains after the battle and I thought the rest of his folk was with him)
 
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Magic Lessons
  • Sidestory
    • Magic Lessons
    Joy gripped his heart and part of him loathed it.

    Healed he was by the song of the great ones, the dread mutterings and dark whispers in his blood replaced by the quiet music of a spider always weaving. It was strange to describe it and even the Firstborn looked at him with wonder. For Celeborn of the Sindar heard the song of the world in trees and glens and plants growing and branches spread to the rain's kiss, a song potent in summer and low in winter and in Lothlorien always high by the grace of his lady. Galadriel of the Noldor perceived it as the quiet rumbling of the earth and the hammer falling and gold being wrought in pleasant shape. For him it was quieter, nearly imperceptible, it was like a sound bearing the others as a pillar, or like to a prized necklace around fair gems. It was the links that bound sound to sound and note to note. Listening to it enabled him to have insight in matters beyond his understanding. It was strange and beautiful and frightening. The world sang to him like it sang to the Elves and the Istari and he longed to lose himself in the clamor.

    Like all Orcs he had been keen of eye and nose in the darkness. Even the black depths of Moria had shone like day for him and his kin. Yet he was not an Orc anymore, not really. Perhaps he would have remained an Orc if the Weaver had not added to his being rather than simply substracted, but the divine had been part of him since his birth. Even his name of birth, Prekk, was no more. After but a few days, on the lips of Men, Elves, Dwarves and Orcs ran the name Palantir, He who Sees Far. His eyes were keener than they ever were and he perceived details that had escaped him for so long. He heard nuances in the speech of others and intuition struck him like lightning when he realized their words had more meaning than themselves thought. Language came to him easily and he had not been surprised when Galadriel had told him in Aman Vaïre was said to have crafted spoken speech even as Aüle had invented writing. Galadriel who had accepted with Saruman to explain some of the subtle arts to him.

    Which explained why he was sitting there, slowly expanding his perceptions like Morianor had taught him to and learning to work with the Music. He treasured his new insight even as it grieved him to be set apart from his former kin. Yet to prepare to what was sure to come and even the coming fight on the Barrow-Downs of Arnor, he needed to be a bit more. Such a short preparation would not avail much in the great scheme of thing but if he knew enough to turn aside a blade aimed for Gandalf or Radagast, it would be good.

    "While you are mortal," droned Saruman, his voice seemingly incredibly distant in Palantir's trance. "The blood of the Maïar flows through your veins. To our eyes your soul burns with her own light and sings her own song. Bring this fire out, let it suffuse your flesh and be visible to all."

    "This is the simplest of magic," added Galadriel," and all magicians learn it. For most servants of the Enemy this will be all they can do. The wretchedness of their corruption makes even dogs bark at them and yet not attack. Many a dark sorcerer haunting the legends of Men and tales around the campfire could only take a fearsome visage and from that build all their fame."

    Palantir drew breath and let it flow from his throat. Draw in, draw out, draw in, draw out. Even the pattern of breathing was echoed by the song in his mind. He began to hum a non-sensical tune, something he half-remembered from forgotten childhood. He felt the warmth arise from his heart and indeed radiate around his body and it seemed for those who looked at him that even sitting he had grown tall, wreathed in comforting light but also terrible as a king on the field of battle or a doomsman ready to pronounce a sentence.

    Palantir learned Light of the Valar (aura who comfort servants of the light and threaten servants of the Shadow; Can be used to counter auras of terror)

    He opened his eyes and dared not speak for he saw the Music and he thought for a moment that if he spoke unwisely his words would echo in the song of the world and have intended effect. Spying his fear both Saruman and Galadriel nodded judging him wise in his caution. Around them the song gathered in threads and the shadow of what they might have been, great lords of shadow doomed to failure and miserable death still clung with spider legs, drowned in futures more likely to bear fruit. Palantir understood then the strangeness of the Music of the Féanturi. For their purview was either the song who died and is heard only as an echo or the notes yet unsung. Nienna's part was perhaps the strangest and the most to fear even in her compassion. For just as Morgoth had once, her song was composed of notes who were not sung and her music was the regret of what never was. Morgoth had been regret of what would be and so he had passed from the hope of endless possibilities to destroyer of all.

    Of all the Valar shivered Palantir Nienna was the one most likely to express "I am the spirit that denies and rightly so for nothing is perfect and so nothing is worth existing" Still fear of the Powers is misplaced. Maïar can fall but of the Valar only one ever left their council and did evil knowingly.

    Still coming back to the great song Palantir began to hum without thinking, guided by instinct and some notes smoothed at his attention. It was nothing great, nothing exceptional but it was the first step. It was a giving of luck, a small and almost inconsequential one. The kind who would avoid to fall on a root while walking in a forest or who could lead a beggar to find enough coins to buy a hot meal in the dust near his bowl.

    Palantir learned Minor Luck/Misfortune (minor blessing/curse sufficient to negate maluses/bonus)
     
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  • Sidestory
    • Nitpick I know but would Galadriel say 'dark sorcerer of legend'? They would not be legends for her, who has lived upon Middle Earth for three full ages and before that had seen the Trees in Flower. IMO the only thing she would consider a legend would be the time before the awakening the the elves since she would have spoken to those who Awoke in the dawn of her race, thus they can hardly be counted as legendary.
     
    DragonParadox said:
    Nitpick I know but would Galadriel say 'dark sorcerer of legend'? They would not be legends for her, who has lived upon Middle Earth for three full ages and before that had seen the Trees in Flower. IMO the only thing she would consider a legend would be the time before the awakening the the elves since she would have spoken to those who Awoke in the dawn of her race, thus they can hardly be counted as legendary.
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    Changed the expression. The idea was you have these great and dark figures of Mannish Lore, Galadriel personnaly knows they were only able to bring terror to their foes. I hope it's clearer now with "haunting the legends of Men"

    "Beruthiel a great sorceress! What she was only able to conjure some glamour and control some cats and she became renowned in tales. You mortals are so easy to impress."
     
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    Aüre Entuluva! Dunadan, Arnadan! Aüre Entuluva! (Day will come back! Men of the West, Men of the Kings! Day will come back
    Arathorn I new warcry

    Feangil (Spirit Sword)! Feangil for Moria!
    Palantir's Warcry
     
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