A Light from the Shadow (Tolkien CKII)

TBF Elu Thingol was an idiot. I mean he single-handedly caused the Fall of Doriath by speaking aloud he wanted a Silmaril. The gems were cursed and he knew it. Also his Diplomacy probably sucked. Remember how he greeted Beren who came with the Ring of Felagund, Finrod that Thingol actually liked!
I figured that he was something of an impetuous fool, but he was supposed to be as "enlightened" as the Noldor, since frolicking with Melian in the forest for a few hundred years supposedly had the same effect on him as the Two Trees did on the elves who traveled to Aman. And he did rule Doriath and the whole of Beleriand just fine for a hell of a long time, so supposedly he should have learned something in that time.

Thus, on the whole, my feelings on the critfail that was the Sacking of Doriath is a persistent WTF. This is the guy that got a Maia to settle down in Beleriand with him forever, and also the guy Cirdan was 100% loyal to. Where are the parts of his personality that deserved that devotion again?

This is one of the great conundrums of Tolkien's universe. Like the fact that Lobelia Bracegirdle married and became Sackille-Baggins by the time she was 24, for some reason.

Maybe the professor would have revised them if given more time, like he revised Mim and Trotter among other things. I suppose we'll never know though.
 
Last edited:
The White Council : Part 5
The White Council : Part 5
"Looking at this map, I feel as if I stared many blazes going without even beginning to fathom which put down first."

Your remark elicits smiles from the gathering of the Wise. You suspect for them it is far from the first time they had to choose which attack counter first and what strength lend to each counter-assaults. Long was their war against the Shadow, indeed for Celeborn it began ere sun and moon were born for his axe was bloodied in the battle under the stars when no great light shone in the heavens. How many defeats who seemed to leave no hope? How many victories which proved hollow? You repress a grumble and concentrate on the map on the table, festooned with figurines of wax representing probable position of armies.

"Let us see first what the worst situation according to our knowledge would be" begins Saruman with no enchantment in his voice. He softly caresses the northern tip of the Misty Mountains. "One of the Nine is in Angmar and prepares to finish what was started long ago. Their targets would of course be the Dunedain but also Imladris and perhaps even the Havens and the holds of the Blue Mountains. Such a victory would give the North to Sauron."

"The whole thing reeks of a pincer movement" interjects Celeborn. "Someone in Angmar for the North, the Daughter of the West in the South and perhaps even the Orcs in Rohan if he sends one of the Nine to muster and order them. If this is the Enemy's plan he will be able to strike Gondor from three directions and deprive her of allies."

"And that without mentioning any legions coming from Minas Morgul", adds Gandalf. "I foresee a similar strategy against the Wood Elves. The Dragon will be swayed to Sauron's will and even without that Thranduil will be assailed by the Easterlings and perhaps even by forces hidden in Dol Guldur" He looks at the path he envisions. "It would be no easy feat but an army could pass the Morannon and the Brown Lands to retake the citadel if it was abandoned."

Seeing your expressions hearing all these omens of disaster Galadriel laughs sweetly: "Do not worry friend. We examine what horrors would come to pass before seeing what we can do about it." She examines the map a moment: "Thanks to your holding of Moria with Thrain we do not have a fierce foe on our western border. While I remain in Lorien, only the Dark Lord himself could wrest the realm for me. So a force can be sent to cast down the walls of Dol Guldur and lay bare its pits. If we coordinate with Thranduil we can cast the Shadow from Mirkwood."

"Beware still what could lurk in the fortress," begins Saruman with a somewhat embarrassed tone. "I fear we have all been misled in this matter. We thought the evil there the mask the Nine fashioned for themselves but I deem now the Necromancer was Sauron himself." He prevents the questions who are sure to arise. "I did not look to Dol Guldur itself but I bent the stone of Elendil to the Gladden Fields. There were Orcs there. Orcs who searched both the shore and Anduin herself." He pauses, concern eclipsing wisdom on his face. "I think they sought the Ruling Ring."

The Ring, always the Ring. Most fell and wondrous work of Sauron. With the Ring at his finger, nothing could keep him from regaining his erstwhile strength and there you don't know if you could fight him power to power. The hierarchy of Angband deemed you and the others Valaraukars the equal of Sauron in the eyes of Morgoth but from what you gathered the Ring strengthened him as long as he had it in his possession. Your only chance is that it was lost long ago.

"Let us imagine the Ring is still in the River," you begin. Even that is not sure, for all you know it was swallowed by a fish long ago or swam the currents to the Sea and there rolled into forgotten abysses. If that's the case you must find a way to bind Sauron himself. Perhaps Saruman and Galadriel and the rest of the Noldor present in Middle-Earth could fashion chains strong enough and then you would sail to the West with your prisoner in tow. Once in Aman, you have no fear Mandos can imprison him for judgement and cast him beyond the Door of Night to join Morgoth in exile. "Even if I agree keeping Sauron for searching the surroundings is good, we can't search for it ourselves. I would be more comfortable seeking a needle in a haystack than a single band of plain gold among all the stones of the riverbed."

"Of that we agree" says dryly Gandalf. "The Ring will come in the open or not but before that, seeking it would be folly."

Saruman agrees to the surprise of all gathered. "The Ring", says he "belongs to Sauron and contain his essence, thus to use it against him would be perilous even in victory. I toyed with the idea of creating our own Ring but without at least a Great Ring to examine I wouldn't attempt it."

"Let's return to more pressing matters" interjects Elrond, a bit quickly for your taste. Apparently, the keepers of the Three are not hasty to let the Aulendil examine their jewels. "It grieves my heart to let the Southrons to the mercy of an Ulair, but the fact remains Arnor is closest to all our domains. What can we do? The forces of Imladris can ride against visible foes but even Glorfindel can't hunt spirits in their dens. Indeed his presence would alert our foes and they would not give him battle."

You have nourished an idea, a daring plan during the council and the discussions and you feel now is the moment of pushing it.

"I will go even if I deem it best if another of the Istari would come with me. The source of Arnor's defilement seems to lie among the barrows of their tombs. If we could drive the wights there beyond the sundering seas, we would remove the gloom that keep Isildur's heirs to retake their kingdom. Eriador needs not to languish desolate a thousand year and more from the great plague that slew so many of the people there."

Elrond is not that opposed to the idea. The Dunedain will help you along the paths of fallen Cardolan and Radagast will be at your side as well as Gandalf for the trees of the Old Forest have grown dark and wicked with the ages. Even the Dunedain Rangers will find the forest wrathful and the paths difficult. During this time, the Rangers and the folk of Imladris will investigate if Angmar has indeed risen anew. Perhaps an assault on Carn Dum will have to be improvised to cast down the Nazgul there and the evil men that form his retinue.

To not let the forces of the Shadow regain any footing, your purge of your Barrows-down will occur at the same time an host will issue from the Golden Wood and Thranduil from his halls. If Dol Guldur is not occupied, it will be utterly destroyed. If not Galadriel herself will come to offer battle to the evil within. With any luck Amon Lanc will be raised again.

Saruman's task will be in Rohan where all his art and diplomacy will be needed to lead the Dunlendings against the Orcs at Helm's Deep. Afterwards, if your purge is successful the Dunlendings will be urged to settle into Enedwaith and the White Wizard will try to unite them into a realm who at least will not bedevil Gondor northern borders.

That leaves Umbar and Harad. There is not many things you can do there. Elrond will send some of the Dunedain raised in Rivendell. They will pass for Black Numenoreans and try to impede the harbor and the oppression of the Haradrim as well as they could. Hassan and his people will have the option of running north as Lothiriel of Dol Amroth promised to give her all to open the borders of the Princehood to them.

The meeting concludes with gifts for Saruman comes to the other Istari with gifts from his hands. For the Maïar are going to war like in the days of yore and thus you will have need of weapons. This is also a sign of friendship as the blades' birth were accompanied by Saruman's fiery song. Yours is Oravengil, the Sword of Mercy. Gandalf's is Rilestel, the Flame of Hope, Radagast wields Vercatùré, the Strength of the Wild. Yes Saruman reaffirms his leadership in naming his Minyengil, Sword of the First but it is plain to see the blades are equal. Like Noldorin blades of old they glow in the presence of evil and their enchantments are strong against the creatures of the Shadow.

You are glad their touch do not burn you. Now only a choice remains.

Will you take some of your best Orcs to accompany you to the Barrow-downs (and thus meet Dunedains)

[] Yes
[] No

Adhoc vote count started by ganonso on Nov 20, 2017 at 5:00 PM, finished with 1542 posts and 11 votes.
 
[x] No

There are things in the Prisons of Morgoth which we must be on hand to contain. Something we should probably mention to the others.
 
[X] Yes

So, this was one meeting. I assume the other issues in the prior post (the orcs, the rings, etc.) will actually be discussed in the next few days? Canon Council of Elrond lasted for weeks, and the Fellowship stayed in Lothlorien for months. Of course, I am totally on board with the idea of settling all matters of strategy and alliance in just a matter of days. Efficiency is always a good thing to nurture after all.

EDIT

I just realized something amazing.

Bandobras "Bullroarer" Took is still alive right now! Hah! Imagine that.
 
Last edited:
[x] No

I figured that he was something of an impetuous fool, but he was supposed to be as "enlightened" as the Noldor, since frolicking with Melian in the forest for a few hundred years supposedly had the same effect on him as the Two Trees did on the elves who traveled to Aman. And he did rule Doriath and the whole of Beleriand just fine for a hell of a long time, so supposedly he should have learned something in that time.

Thus, on the whole, my feelings on the critfail that was the Sacking of Doriath is a persistent WTF. This is the guy that got a Maia to settle down in Beleriand with him forever, and also the guy Cirdan was 100% loyal to. Where are the parts of his personality that deserved that devotion again?
When in doubt, blame the Doom of Mandos, also blame Mandos. Finally then Blame Melkor/Morgoth for being a twat
Also I think Mim cursed the treasure Hurin brought since Hurin killed him while he was sitting around in Nagathrond
 
[x] No
When in doubt, blame the Doom of Mandos, also blame Mandos. Finally then Blame Melkor/Morgoth for being a twat
Also I think Mim cursed the treasure Hurin brought since Hurin killed him while he was sitting around in Nagathrond
I doubt Mandos actually sealed their fates. Considering his job and grim, taciturn nature, as well as his link to Eru that only Manwe could boast to (out)match, he most likely just foresaw what the Oath would lead to, since Elves are intrinsically tied to the Music and are therefore bound by destiny, one and all. Unlike Men, who supposedly have no destiny, not that all the foresight exhibited by random Dunedain adds credence to that. Hopefully it just means that Men of Importance are susceptible to fate due to their association with Elves and Valar/Maiar, rather than it being a plot hole of Tolkien's. But considering that the SIlmarillion was unfinished and not entirely refined and edited due to author existence failure, Men lacking Doom could be a leftover plot device that was supposed to be discarded.

In truth, Dwarves are the ones who should be completely immune to fate and all other active, deliberate or otherwise imposed manipulations of the Music, seeing as they aren't part of it to begin with.

That said, that plot device about Mim cursing the treasure is not unknown to me. The very idea that dwarves could curse anything, however, sounds completely absurd to my ears, considering that they are innately disconnected from the Music and should, therefore, be unable to impose their will on it in any manner. Especially not in a manner their very being was designed to be incompatible with (the Discord). This is probably still another leftover, obsolete plot device. One that Tolkien didn't get around to trimming, unlike Trotter and how Mim himself was originally supposed to be an ill-meaning, ugly antagonist if I remember correctly.

On the other hand, fëa. So who knows what's up with all thes apparent inconsistencies.
 
Last edited:
Tolkienian Magic
Tolkienian Magic
Magic in the Legendarium is a complicated matter. Notwithstanding that, like in all things, Tolkien oft changed his mind on what magic was able of and more importantly for our discussion on who is able to wield magic, the Legendarium is meant to have been written by Hobbits who are prone to label everything they don't understand "magic". Galadriel herself is not sure why the same word is employed for the arts of the elves and the deceits of the enemy. Yet magic certainly exists in Arda, even in the form we know of. The elves of Nargothrond and the Green Elves are said to have defended their hidden fortresses by spell and poisoned darts and Gandalf once knew all spells of closing and opening in the tongues of Elf, Man and Orc.

So what is magic. Well we are going to make a distinction between Magic and Sorcery there. The latter being used only to express what Morgoth and Sauron and the rest of the Umaïar do and teach.

The first form of magic is simply some innate ability of the wielder. The elvish féa, their soul, is able to exert itself at some distance, acting in the Unseen world. Thus, they are able of little miracles according to human standards like seeing in the minds of others and spying the pattern of their thoughts. In the lords and ladies of the Calaquendi who saw the light that was before the sun and moon, this power can take impressive proportions indeed. While Galadriel's control over Lorien is enhanced by her mastery over Nenya, she would be able to forbid the borders of her domain even without the Ring of Water as she is simply sending her féa outwards, making it an obstacle for any who would penetrate it. The Valar and Maïar beings built entirely of spiritual matters are able to exert their might beyond the boundaries of distance and Morgoth claimed that even the shadow of his thoughts could have tangible effects for the people he hated.

Now that form of magic is exclusively the province of an immortal, or someone whose féa has been unnaturally tied to their hroa or body. For mortals are born to leave the world and are not bound to it like the Powers and the Firstborn (That doesn't mean you can't make predictions about Men but they are always able to act against them). I count the Dwarves among the Immortals because even if they die of old age their féa seems to abide in the world, as they think they are meant to dwell in separate halls in Mandos. Still the main use of their féa seems to be infusion into items.

Men, like any other living creatures can use spells. Spells are reflections of the Great Music who came before the world. They are harmonics who can change the world for after all on some level Arda is music. When Tom Bombadil declares "His songs are stronger songs" he is boasting of his superiority in magic. Such spells can be learned even by a mortal but it requires a life to be able to manage more than small effects and even then such magic tends to enhances things rather than create them. A blessing pronounced upon a batch of athelas would increase its curative proprieties while a group of adepts could chant to banish a wight. The lesser the adept, the stricter the rhythm of their spells should be. (I'm not going to do that but imagine all spells by normal humans must be in iambic pentameter or some other closed verse)

There I would make Dwarves a mid-point between Men and Elves, while they learn spells quicker than Men and have more people able to do "magic", their spells are only reflecting the Music of their creator Aulë and the themes and objects found therein. There again, craft would be the most common use for these spells. Something like chants to be sung over the forge to bless the item you are making or the like.

The third and last wholesome form of magic is Craft. All thinking beings were given the Sacred Fire by Eru. The Dwarves were adopted by the creator and whatever Morgoth did to create the Orcs he couldn't touch the divine flame within them just like he couldn't give it to anything he created rather than twisted into being. This flame means every living creature have the power to sub-created and there comes the magic of craft. A part of the essence of the crafter can pass through them to the item they forge. This is not like the One Ring but rather like the lifeforce of Miriel passed to her son Féanor. Even Men can create such masterworks but only once in their lives and after they can't make them no more. Most renowned weapons are the products of this and of spells.

And then there is Guldur or Morgul, that none of the Free People will aknowledge or practice. Guldur is composed of spells who reflect and influence the essence of Morgoth present in Arda either through the original Marring or through the dispersion of his essence through the First Age until the earth herself became his Ring. Unlike wholesome magic Guldur is rather easy to learn. The catch is that, for a mortal practitioner it requires blood and pain, preferably taken from unwilling sources. Pain, anguish but also foolish pride and black despair are echoes of the Discord, false notes and silence in the melody of creation. The Nazgul are of course the greatest masters of these black arts but they have a tendency to spread anywhere and anytime people are dissatisfied with the slow progress of normal magic.

Canonical examples of Morgul are the spells wrought unto Ghrond, the ram who broke the gates of Minas Tirith and the incantations that book-Witch-King howl before each strike. The creation of Barrow-Wights is also an effect of Guldur as this sorcery allows the adept to confers with both Unhoused and Umaïar. The timely storm who sunk the ship of the last king of Arthedain and the Great Plague of the Third Age (as well as others, Morgoth and Sauron love sending plagues on their greatest foes of the moment)
 
I can't help but feel like a good number of the topics of conversation for the council were set aside. Most notably, the issue of the Rings.
 
The One Ring draws strength from the other Nineteen. What would happen if the Nineteen were destroyed, leaving the One as the only Great Ring left?
 
Back
Top