Ungoliat is missing not confirmed dead and no Child of Iluvatar not even an Eldar could have sinned as much as an Ainu.
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A Light from the Shadow (Tolkien CKII)
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Ungoliat is missing not confirmed dead and no Child of Iluvatar not even an Eldar could have sinned as much as an Ainu.
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I disagree.
At least in Feanor and co's situation.
Melkor "Merely" stole the silmarils and manipulated a monster to commit assault. He then fled and fought to keep stolen merchandise and experimented on those who came for his stolen goods. Io also stated that Melkor's dissonance was according to plan. So....fate vs freewill argument vague (can you really blame a sword for stabbing?)
Feanor and co......Murdered brothers and servants for not helping him commit suicidal vengeance. Then he bound his sons to seek suicidal vengeance and to retrieve his stuff which caused FAR more damage then Melkor did by the original theft of such.
Dark Abstraction
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The names are spelled Morgoth and Ungoliant.
Ungoliant's whereabouts are unknown, but it is theorized that she consumed herself at some point in the eons between the first age and the third.
The issue of balrogs is a weird one. In the beginning, Tolkien initially only had there be a handful of them, and they were not tremendously larger than elves. He also had, at other points like when Morgoth called them to drive off Ungoliant, a vast army of them, hundreds, as massive monsters like we see in the film. He never actually concretely decided one way or the other before his death, so the numbers and size of balrogs is somewhat up for interpretation.
Ungoliant's whereabouts are unknown, but it is theorized that she consumed herself at some point in the eons between the first age and the third.
The issue of balrogs is a weird one. In the beginning, Tolkien initially only had there be a handful of them, and they were not tremendously larger than elves. He also had, at other points like when Morgoth called them to drive off Ungoliant, a vast army of them, hundreds, as massive monsters like we see in the film. He never actually concretely decided one way or the other before his death, so the numbers and size of balrogs is somewhat up for interpretation.
Melkor is the source of all evil on Arda thus he bears some responsibility for all evil acts. To a lesser degree that is true of all who sang the Discord into being.
Dark Abstraction
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Melkor alone sang the Discord into being. Others contributed, but only after he worked it into the Great Music in the first place. And not all the Ainur that who sang harmony to his melody became Valar/Maiar by descending to Ea in the first place. Can they be blamed for the misfortunes of the world, when they've never even touched it?
Basically, the issue isn't quite that simple. But ultimately, it's all Melkor's fault.
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If Io who made all the Valar and Maiar foresaw and knew Melkor would sing his song and "create" evil (Which also means free will as he was the one who brought the concept of "not" following orders, i.e. making his own song for whatever reason) then is the evil at the food of Melkor or Io who created him to do that?
...sorry. I've been in full devil's advocate mode for a few days now. Arguing semantics is fun.
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And Feanor and co are still the most evil after Melkor.
Knowing about something is not the same thing as causing it neither is permitting it to exist.
I think that would be Sauron honestly considering how much misery he knowingly created.
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To your first point, Io made a rabid dog because he saw that the rabid dog would cause a change in his work different than he intended and it would be unique.
Blame is as much Io to me.
Feanor and his stupid oath screwed up 2 ages of middle earth.
Sauron one.
Or does massive selfish "Unintended" evil count less than the intentional kind. To what degree? Paved with good intentions and all that.
I'm not going to debate the theology of why God is not responsible for all the evil in the world in the Catholic understanding of the world (because hat is what this is ultimately given Tolkien's own background) since it would take too long and it is late for me
As for Sauron he was active and committed great acts of evil from the beginning of the World to the end of the Third Age. Feanor committed two evil acts and his sons a few more. It does not even remotely compare.
ganonso
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I would tend to place Féanor as the greatest sinning Child of Eru and one whose evil had the direst consequences.
As for the Ainur: Morgoth is evilier than you by definition, Ungoliant by nature and Sauron by occasion (Strangely you have more time to do evil when you are a shapeshifting demon than a giant monster of flame and shadows severely impaired in fields other than combat. )
As for the Ainur: Morgoth is evilier than you by definition, Ungoliant by nature and Sauron by occasion (Strangely you have more time to do evil when you are a shapeshifting demon than a giant monster of flame and shadows severely impaired in fields other than combat. )
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If you are not going to debate the point...
...don't debate the point.
Because there is TOTALLY a debate there we could be having, being on opposite sides of that issue.
Feanor committed more than simply two acts.
Blasphemy: Manwe told him not to go. Feanor told them to go hang themselves, and led his followers away.
Betrayal/Murder: Killing the elves to steal their boats when they refused to help him in his mad quest.
Theft: Stealing the boats for his mad quest.
Betrayal(again): Burning his boats once on middle earth so his followers now had no choice but to continue his mad quest.
Pride: Going off alone to follow Melkor because he couldn't be bothered waiting for the army his forced to follow him to catch up with him on his mad quest.
A Terrible Oath: When brought down by SUPRISEMURDERBALROGARMY, binding his sons to continue his mad quest and tolerate none would would not aid them...setting the stage for the ruin of the elves and middle earth through the next two ages.
TL;DR: Feanor's a dick. Totally as bad as Melkor in terms of how badly he screwed up Middle Earth.
Finagle007
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[X] I am Durin's Bane now redeemed and ready to pay my debt to your race. I will welcome you in the halls of your ancestors now nearly pure for Nienna sister of he you call Mahal has smiled on me and sent me to right old wrong.
Mithrandir
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Completely true. He's a jerk - but he's an awesome jerk. And people give him leeway because his evil acts are committed in the name of something other than "laughs".
Saruman vs. Sauron. Both evil, but one's easier to identify with then the other.
prince84
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[X] I am a servant of the Mourner and these ruined halls are to be the crucible of the redemption of the orcish race. So speak the Powers. If you want to reclaim them, you shall stay your hands from the orcs that still live here for they have done no wrong to you or yours.
Dark Abstraction
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You realize that this is an utterly terrible comparison, right? You understand why this is though, right? Because it really really is.
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Dark Abstraction
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You're a treasure, my sweet dear.
The fundamental reason why Sauron turned evil and stayed evil was because he looked at the world and saw the children of Ilúvatar fucking wrecking the place, and figured that he could do better, if only he was in charge and able to put things to proper order.
Saruman turned to evil because he gave into despair at the idea that winning against Sauron was impossible.
They are both reasonable, given their circumstances. In fact, even Melkor had reasons that you can look at and sympathize with. He wanted to create something original, something of his own imagining; Eru denied him this by what amounts to "I said no, so no".
Things descended from there, of course, but fundamentally it can be understood that the great forces of evil were never beyond sympathizing with. None of them.
Except possibly Ungoliant, because nobody knows where she came from, but she was a vicious and irredeemable monster antithetical to light and life from the very beginning.
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Mithrandir
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It's supposed to be. The whole point was that LOTR villains operate on sliding scale of redemption, and Feanor is far from the lowest.
Dark Abstraction
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Ah, that makes sense now. I thought you were trying to say otherwise.
Skewfiend
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Other than "Beyond the wall of night", which could mean anything.
Dark Abstraction
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Which was what I meant. Morgoth was thrown beyond the "Door of Night" into the outer void, so presumably the Door of Night is the means of passage through the Wall of Night, meaning that Ungoliant came from the outer void. That being said, her having come from there means that 1) there are beings not of Ea, not of Eru Iluvatar's Great Music, in the outer void, and 2) it's possible to make one's way through the wall/door of night from the other side (Ungoliant being the example), meaning that Morgoth's imprisonment is not as total as it seems to be. Dagor Dagorath presumably being the result of when Morgoth finally finds a means of finding his way back through to Ea. Possibly with some of the gribblies from the outer void in tow, since Dagor Dagorath is, in fact, meant to be a battle capable of shattering Arda in preparation for the remaking of the world in tune with Eru Iluvatar's new Music, rather than just a simple execution.
Lots of interesting food for thought, the existence and background of Ungoliant brings about, innit?