Roth963
If I become inactive with this massage, I died
From what I gathered, it is a yet, the guy her power based on sometimes do it.
A Finely Honed Blade [Worm/Kara no Kyoukai | Garden of Sinners]
- Location
- Sea of Quanta
Actually, what projections have the closest connection to their creators/masters in Worm? Was thinking about the possible connection between Eidolon and EB's and remembered the scene from "Overlooking the Scenery" where it was mentioned that if Ryougi would kill Fujou's ghost/double/projection - it would kill Kirie as well. Would whatever ghosts Alabaster creates count as well?
She... kinda can. At least Shiki (Ryougi) was able to kill "distance" between herself and her target putting them right next to each other. (Araya started falling way earlier than Shiki, but after a sword swing, she suddenly appeared in front of him - close enough to give him the poke)
Last edited:
Mirvein
A Tea-Fueled Monstrosity.
- Location
- In the middle of nowhere.
Of course, you don't HAVE to use conceptual shenanigans to kill a Type, but the effort you have to put in in this case makes it so infinitely difficult it's not really worth it. You can hit the Type on the planet it belongs to with biggatons of physical damage, yeah, and you may kill it, but does it really matter when they get better very soon with the World's backup, just as dangerous and infinitely more pissed? You will have to destroy the whole planet to destroy such a being, or use dimensional shenanigans to cut the Type off from any backup.
A fun fact: the physical attacks of such magnitudes are barely possible even for the Noble Phantasms or Divine Authorities. Enuma Elish can only scorch a layer of the Texture, for instance. Da Vinci said that no NP can destroy a planet fully. Now then, where is Earth's Soul located?
Roth963
If I become inactive with this massage, I died
Entities could probably trap such beings that tried to interfere while the cycle is ongoing until they are ready to destroy the planet (of they were weaker they would have already died 2000 cycles ago).
Types are probably superior to what an endbringer is (the endbringers do hold back, but I am pretty sure not that much).
I still think that if Taylor didn't kill leviathan he will "heal" any damage should he still be malleable after being sent out, simply by making a new limb that look the same to humans despite being different.
- Location
- Seoul
So, before I begin, it's like 4:30 AM here, I stayed up late for unrelated reasons, so please bear with me.
If the new Crawler or Noelle were identical to the original that has been cut, then no - it wouldn't work. I think. This is primarily a case of clashing between Wormverse grounded nature (holy shit that's a weird sentence) and Nasuverse conceptual nature - the MEoDP aren't just dealing a wound that won't heal like I'm pretty sure Wormverse has seen before, they're basically making it a universal law that 'Noelle/Crawler/Target X now has this wound'. That law is now the same as, say, gravity, or the speed of light - it just sort of 'is'.
If the new Noelle and Crawler are different enough from the originals that they can be confidently stated to be different people entirely, then I think they could escape, but otherwise no, they'd share the pain.
Yes and no. No, I don't think what you're thinking of works, because the MEoDP are basically stating to the universe 'this is how things are now' and the universe complying. The Entities don't have that kind of hax at their disposal - biggatons, yes, but everything they do is still supposed to be theoretically bound by physics and natural laws. The MEoDP changes the natural laws, to fit what has been cut.
I put 'yes', because it's significantly easier than what you described for a shapeshifter to move past the MEoDP by, well, changing their shape. Yes, eventually, they'll be reduced to a blob, but nothing's stopping Leviathan from growing two arms on his back, or turning into an octopus, or whatever.
If it were that easy to kill Types, Angel Notes Earth wouldn't have been nearly as bad off as it was. He is correct, however - I was misremembering; Types are immune to a host of conceptual abilities but big numbers do work. Problem is, those numbers are big enough that it'd take a 'Has recently gorged themselves on energy and have all their Shards' Entity to actually deal meaningful damage to them. And the Types can very definitely deal meaningful damage back.
Of course, there's also the fact that they, like most other high-powered Nasuverse things, make natural laws their bitch - Type Mercury's very presence on Earth is changing the World into an alien planet. This isn't just physical, parasitic terraforming you could burn away with a machete either - the laws of physics and nature are being rewritten to fit Type Mercury's own biome. So, Scion and the Entities, who still work off of Earth physics because in Worm 'Earth' physics are universal, are going to get a nasty surprise when the Golden Fuck-You beams do jack and all.
Addendum: It's really annoying discussing Types because they've had practically no real development or mention outside of Angel Notes. It just so happens that what was said, and what was shown indicate they are this dangerous.
And as a side note, Ea doesn't just damage the Texture, it tears it off I believe - it rips away the World to reveal the Truth, that is, the scorching ball of rock and fire that Earth really is. Bringing it back to Genesis.
Second side note: Makes me sad seeing Tiamama disrespect. And some of the disrespect in general because there are plenty of things that would see Sting as a minor inconvenience. Ainnash, comes to mind. Resurrective or distributed immortality is very, very common in Nasuverse, and it takes place quick enough that you're not going to do much more than annoy the target. And, in the case of Herc, congratulations. You've now made him immune to Sting.
As for Tiamama...I believe that, again, he is technically correct, but cutting off Tiamama's legs without some very weighty conceptual shenanigans would probably have just seen her regenerate them. She is a never-ending font of the Sea of Life, which heals her constantly. An attack would need to hit her hard enough to obliterate her down to the last molecule at the same time to be sure, and an attack of that level has such a high number attached you'd be better off just grabbing a fleet of Death Stars.
If the new Crawler or Noelle were identical to the original that has been cut, then no - it wouldn't work. I think. This is primarily a case of clashing between Wormverse grounded nature (holy shit that's a weird sentence) and Nasuverse conceptual nature - the MEoDP aren't just dealing a wound that won't heal like I'm pretty sure Wormverse has seen before, they're basically making it a universal law that 'Noelle/Crawler/Target X now has this wound'. That law is now the same as, say, gravity, or the speed of light - it just sort of 'is'.
If the new Noelle and Crawler are different enough from the originals that they can be confidently stated to be different people entirely, then I think they could escape, but otherwise no, they'd share the pain.
Yes and no. No, I don't think what you're thinking of works, because the MEoDP are basically stating to the universe 'this is how things are now' and the universe complying. The Entities don't have that kind of hax at their disposal - biggatons, yes, but everything they do is still supposed to be theoretically bound by physics and natural laws. The MEoDP changes the natural laws, to fit what has been cut.
I put 'yes', because it's significantly easier than what you described for a shapeshifter to move past the MEoDP by, well, changing their shape. Yes, eventually, they'll be reduced to a blob, but nothing's stopping Leviathan from growing two arms on his back, or turning into an octopus, or whatever.
If it were that easy to kill Types, Angel Notes Earth wouldn't have been nearly as bad off as it was. He is correct, however - I was misremembering; Types are immune to a host of conceptual abilities but big numbers do work. Problem is, those numbers are big enough that it'd take a 'Has recently gorged themselves on energy and have all their Shards' Entity to actually deal meaningful damage to them. And the Types can very definitely deal meaningful damage back.
Of course, there's also the fact that they, like most other high-powered Nasuverse things, make natural laws their bitch - Type Mercury's very presence on Earth is changing the World into an alien planet. This isn't just physical, parasitic terraforming you could burn away with a machete either - the laws of physics and nature are being rewritten to fit Type Mercury's own biome. So, Scion and the Entities, who still work off of Earth physics because in Worm 'Earth' physics are universal, are going to get a nasty surprise when the Golden Fuck-You beams do jack and all.
Addendum: It's really annoying discussing Types because they've had practically no real development or mention outside of Angel Notes. It just so happens that what was said, and what was shown indicate they are this dangerous.
And as a side note, Ea doesn't just damage the Texture, it tears it off I believe - it rips away the World to reveal the Truth, that is, the scorching ball of rock and fire that Earth really is. Bringing it back to Genesis.
Second side note: Makes me sad seeing Tiamama disrespect. And some of the disrespect in general because there are plenty of things that would see Sting as a minor inconvenience. Ainnash, comes to mind. Resurrective or distributed immortality is very, very common in Nasuverse, and it takes place quick enough that you're not going to do much more than annoy the target. And, in the case of Herc, congratulations. You've now made him immune to Sting.
As for Tiamama...I believe that, again, he is technically correct, but cutting off Tiamama's legs without some very weighty conceptual shenanigans would probably have just seen her regenerate them. She is a never-ending font of the Sea of Life, which heals her constantly. An attack would need to hit her hard enough to obliterate her down to the last molecule at the same time to be sure, and an attack of that level has such a high number attached you'd be better off just grabbing a fleet of Death Stars.
Mirvein
A Tea-Fueled Monstrosity.
- Location
- In the middle of nowhere.
The structure does not matter. The concept and functionality are what matters. If she kills the concept of someone having an arm, anything that can be considered an arm will just not work and remain a lump of flesh unless that someone completely remakes themselves.
Yeah, they could. As it is with Nasuverse usually, it's not really about power levels, but about what trumps what, and if you receive a backup from a planet, just removing you from it will do the job instead of trying to power through.
Last edited:
Roth963
If I become inactive with this massage, I died
This is because conceptual shenanigans don't exist in worm, the entities research and study, and we know magic isn't limited to earth in nasu verse, the greek machine gods are a random fleet, Sefer is just one of countless super weapons orbiting a living star, the very laws of physics get wonky when you leave the star system.
The entities can't exist in nasu verse without running into magic and adapting, every planet they eat is dealing with conceptual godlike entities, not even only inhabitant ones, Gaia made a call to the other planets in the solar system to send things her way and mercury did.
He probably wouldn't want to, as it would weaken the invincible air the endbringers want to project if they can be permanently damaged, maybe they will try to play it up, having the next "form" be more powerful to make people put pressure on Taylor to stop helping them evolve.
Sting should deal with it, it dies the ultimate mechanical damage and Scion has a sting, also, trying to attack the entities directly is under the assumption you can beat them in the dimensional game, you can't, there is a reason they were basically unbeatable until they made a mistake, because they are powerful enough for others to not win, space is dangerous in nasu verse, where every planet can spit super gods, and you have random godlike beings going around nearly destroying planet, Chaos nearly ate earth from the other side of the universe and killed gods by looking at them, and it was created by a society that tried and failed to escape something else.
The entities by their very nature are extremely top tier predators no matter what universe they are and it is doubly true for Nasu verse, otherwise they will be dead 2000 times over.
Entities are from space, and from what I gathered, the laws of nature are different in space, which means the only reason they play by earth rules are because they want to, maybe it is cheaper to play by the local rules than trying to enforce their own.
It isn't like Nasu verse solved the problem of entropy so their goals can still stay the same.
Maybe you should try ask those questions in the snippet Ryuugi thread, it is still active, the current stories are about a servant Taylor that becomes one after killing Scion and getting killed by Contessa (which is interesting in my opinion).
And I am too new to the franchise to argue with you on specific, it will be interesting to see where this conversation will go there.
I think that it depends, if Leviathan can't do it, than he might still fake healing imagine if leviathan had a million multidimensional arms and he did shadow shapes with them the same way a human might paint a shadow on a wall, cut a finger and the shadow puppet lost an arm, it might annoy him but it won't stop him simply putting another hand and making what looks like the same shape in the shadow puppet, you kill an endbringer by cutting the portal that they project the shapes through.
This is at least how I think an endbringer works, too much depends on what is the head canon of the author is.
Mirvein
A Tea-Fueled Monstrosity.
- Location
- In the middle of nowhere.
That depends on whether TayTay would kill just the concept of it having an arm, full stop, or just the concept of it having this specific arm. She can do either or both. Then, it'll be a matter of whether the Leviathan has the understanding to have it work not as a functional arm, but as a prosthesis.
- Location
- Israel
I honestly don't know why of all the things in this fandom this bothers me the most instead of things more important to actual storytelling (like how most fics twist characters way beyond any resemblance to their original selves.) But nevertheless I find myself stuck on this...
Mainly because this entire misconception is based on an assumption that isn't even supported by Worm itself. Because we are told of at least one case where the local civilization forced the Entities to abort the cycle, because a bad crash landing crippled Eden, because once Scion's body was open a gun that's compared to String Theory's G-Driver killed him, because it's implied that one of the conditions that would make the entities abort a cycle is the creation of an unrestricted AI (at least that's the only working explanation I saw as to why Saint killing Dragon reduced the chance of Scion killing everyone.)
But even beyond that, in induces an escalation of stakes and challenge that's completely unnecesary, because as is Scion ans the EBs are still a huge threat to Taylor and everyone else, and she's still as killable as every other human and is limited by her perception and reactions. Any sort of buffing done to the Entities just forces the story to find ever more convoluted answers as to why a good ending is even possible.
TL;DR - stupid rant on an unimportant subject because I have no self control.
- Location
- Germany
Do you remember that interlude in the Birdcage? Where Amy discovers a secret about the shards and tries to tell Dragon, but the Simurgh scrambles the transmission so that the secret is filed somewhere where Dragon won't ever access it? I believe that that is the reason why Saint's stunt had a minuscle positive effect on the chance. Saint could have accessed the secret and very nearly did in his interlude.
But the entities being wary of AIs is canon. I think there was a WoG about that.
Roth963
If I become inactive with this massage, I died
The civilization that forced them out was their first, and they killed it and it's planet on their way out, this being Nasu verse, killing their own planet was going to be ridiculously hard, the crash landing incapacitated her for enough time for Contessa to kill her just the right time, without Contessa she would have been fine, had Scion been the one to crash she would have likely fixed him, because WoG is that someone else other than cauldron messing with her body could have revived her, which likely means that the only reason Scion didn't is his passiveness, stupidity and not asking the right question.
The G driver didn't kill him, what did is the mega gun Taylor made with all the living tinkers sharing and empowering their powers with the Yangban, killing him could have multiple reasons, first he was committing suicide, thus letting all his defences down, including PtV that protected him until now, for all we know he had a Grey Boy style battle continuation on his real body and he would have shrugged the gun, that if he didn't use a brute power to tank it, there is also to consider the gun being entity tech and being made by the Queen piloting the parahumans, could have just the right properties to kill him.
Unrestricted A.I is no threat to the entities, it is a threat to the hosts, what can an A.I do that they can't better and safer, they are A.Is living on continent sized computers with countless years to advance, even if they are dumb A.Is, if A.I could just make advancement trivial than they will make a loyal one.
No, an A.I is ridiculously powerful to hosts and can kill the planet, which the entities don't want.
There is no real need to buff them, at least in a way a human can comprehend, Taylor can only kill Scion if he let's her, because like the problem with Sting, he could dodge every attack and kill her easily if he tried, his power would be a reason why creatures from nasuverse don't just pop in to get rid of him, his only weakness was always his humanity, he scan the planet from outside the galaxy before coming, if something could have stopped him, it wouldn't be a problem, Goetia might be immune to his sight what with living in a secret palace outside of time, but he has the problem of God having dome PtV to get rid of him, so Goetia isn't saving earth.
Scion checked if there was a danger when a hobo tried to attack him, Taylor can't suprise him, killing him was never going to be just coming to him and shanking him.
I don't really see it being a threat more than nano technology is, both are restricted, I think the reason is that they can kill the host species or in an A.I case, force world peace or something.
Last edited:
MWKillKenny84
Lurking from the Trauma Switch.
- Location
- Vado Ligure
Or, more realistically, advance tech non 'leased' from Shards to the point the host race can get away from the 'peltri dish' that their planet is for the Entities.
Gregory Crey
Magic is of wonder and terror. Life is so magical.
- Location
- United States
- Pronouns
- He/Him/His
We have an informational threadmark for this, Taylor's origin is control:
- Location
- Seoul
@ROTH963 The Entities are nearly unbeatable in a setting that operates on grounded physics and rules. If we presume that they still evolved in an identical manner even in the Nasuverse, then the Entities wouldn't exist, period, because the moment they ran off to begin doing their thing with their first planet, they'd basically get shanked in an alley. The Entities are a threat because they got lucky enough that the universe pandered to them enough to give them nonthreatening enough worlds (worlds where they weren't being actively targeted) for the first few instances that allowed them to build up their strength and adaptive abilities. Something like the Greek Fleet, Sefar, Nyarlathothep, or the like could easily have obliterated them.
And you're wrong regarding their first planet, their first planet had no intelligent life. It was just a bunch of plants surviving in acid rain. Their *second* planet had tech but was easily divisible and fraught w/ conflict. Like ours. And it nearly ended them. Not a great suite of enemies so far.
Though, I think a fundamental part of the discussion atm is that we are, in fact, operating on different assumptions and values - valuations we give to supernatural over physical, assumptions regarding the Entities and their backgrounds themselves. Your assumption is giving the Entities more stuff than they already had by having them grow and develop in the Nasuverse proper - makes sense.
My assumption is that the Entities, as they are, are dealing with new OCP's due to the addition of new elements. The difference between a Setting Merge Fusion Fic, and a more bog standard 'Plop elements from Universe A into Universe B w/out changing anything else'.
And, last note: If the Entities had as much power you're ascribing to them, then their driving conflict wouldn't exist. Because they could have changed the rules on their home planet to, in fact, allow for infinite expansion and growth and just not left.
Though, really, it's weird how they'd be so frightened considering that in Nasuverse there're significantly more alternate dimensions they could have eaten, or 'pruned' variants if that concept exists outside of Earth, since the alternate dimension versions of their worlds would have been born every time a major event happened, or a comparatively minor one involving individual people. Kaleidoscope be wack, yo.
EDIT: So, not as much cause for being frightened, because they'd have way more alternate homeworlds to eat.
And you're wrong regarding their first planet, their first planet had no intelligent life. It was just a bunch of plants surviving in acid rain. Their *second* planet had tech but was easily divisible and fraught w/ conflict. Like ours. And it nearly ended them. Not a great suite of enemies so far.
Though, I think a fundamental part of the discussion atm is that we are, in fact, operating on different assumptions and values - valuations we give to supernatural over physical, assumptions regarding the Entities and their backgrounds themselves. Your assumption is giving the Entities more stuff than they already had by having them grow and develop in the Nasuverse proper - makes sense.
My assumption is that the Entities, as they are, are dealing with new OCP's due to the addition of new elements. The difference between a Setting Merge Fusion Fic, and a more bog standard 'Plop elements from Universe A into Universe B w/out changing anything else'.
And, last note: If the Entities had as much power you're ascribing to them, then their driving conflict wouldn't exist. Because they could have changed the rules on their home planet to, in fact, allow for infinite expansion and growth and just not left.
Though, really, it's weird how they'd be so frightened considering that in Nasuverse there're significantly more alternate dimensions they could have eaten, or 'pruned' variants if that concept exists outside of Earth, since the alternate dimension versions of their worlds would have been born every time a major event happened, or a comparatively minor one involving individual people. Kaleidoscope be wack, yo.
EDIT: So, not as much cause for being frightened, because they'd have way more alternate homeworlds to eat.
Last edited:
Roth963
If I become inactive with this massage, I died
It is impossible in nasu verse as well, the culling of the timelines, Chaos attempting to eat the earth, chaos being a dyson sphere and so on imply that limitations on energy exist, they are much more stretchable than in our dimension and allow for more playing around, but they do exist.
There are limitations on the number of timelines, if allowed to grow exponentially will destroy the solar system or something, which is why they are pruned.
The Ryuugi story I talked about had them use this function to eat planets, by preventing the timelines they are on from being deleted and growing like cancer to others, not allowing the pruning, they make the system collapse and take all the energy on their way out after it collapsed.
There is still limit, but I think you are right that we can't truly agree because we are coming from different directions as for how the entities work, what I am saying could be right, but so could what you say, I still think that if Nasu verse make it that the laws of physics are different for every planet the entities would adapt but it could easily be the case of partial adaption and not a full one (like breaker states being them alerting the laws of physics, but they still can't use conceptual shenanigans).
Last edited:
- Location
- western US
so this thread got necro'd a while ago and I wanna ask if its just a renewed intrest in the story or if the author mentioned somewhere about doing a proper rez on it
- Location
- Sea of Quanta
Ensou is very... chaotic(?) with her update schedule - unless she says that it's dead - it's not dead.
- Location
- A rock hurtling through space...
Check their profile. They updated their pronouns.
girador
There are only four circles in this picture
- Location
- behind a screen
I just Checked Ensou's profile and either Ensou made a mistake when typing in said pronouns or Qro got Ensou's pronouns correct. That or there's something i've never heard of going on right now because Every single pronoun Qro used is listed in Ensou's profile.
- Location
- A rock hurtling through space...
Huh. Could have sworn she updated them to he / him / they / them. Oh well, my mistake!
- Location
- Malaysia
Ryougi cutting distance is, as far as I can tell, fanon. Can't find a single instance of it happening that isn't fan speculation.
In the scene you cited, Shiki leapt off the building before Araya emerged from the side of the building. She did it early enough that by the time he emerged she sliced his shoulder immediately after, and she only survived the deadliest leap of faith ever because his wards cushioned her fall.
This part was presented differently in the movie to be more... cinematic.
- Pronouns
- They/Them
I'm just waiting for Taylor to straight up kill Leviathan in one strike
Killing an Endbringer in one strike would be briefly hilarious, but would not be narratively appropriate for such a climactic battle.
AionVal
(Verified Figment)
- Location
- Beyond The Veil
Taylor: *stabs*
Levi: *ded*
Taylor: Huh, that wasn't so hard. I wonder what took the heroes so long to pull this 🤔?
Cauldron: what...
Protectorate: the...
Clockblocker: bullshit!!
Gregory Crey
Magic is of wonder and terror. Life is so magical.
- Location
- United States
- Pronouns
- He/Him/His
I don't know, a lot of worm stories die at the leviathan fight/endbringer battle, that would perhaps be a way to prevent that.