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The Long Night Part One: Embers in the Dusk: A Planetary Governor Quest (43k) Complete Sequel Up

Investigate the Sea?

  • Yes

    Votes: 593 80.4%

  • No

    Votes: 145 19.6%
  • Total voters
    738
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I'm seeing an awful lot of assumption treated as fact here.

I agree that staying in the void is probably safer for their sorcerers. However, I can also see several big reasons why they might not do that.

First of all, while we know quite a bit about Avernus' perculularities and lethality, they likely know substantially less. As such, I could see them believing that ground side is safer.

While their high-level sorcerers would be cruicial for summoning the first circle daemon, they are also probably not here just for that contingency, and I doubt that too many of their support sorcery abilities can be effectively cast from orbit.

I can see it being a lot easier to 'count' those we kill as sacrifices on the ground (near-ish to where they died) than in the void.

I can see the general fact of this setting that things like orbital bombardment are less effective than they 'should' be also applying to things like most rituals.
 
[X] Plan Bleeding Fleet

Vote changed.
Adhoc vote count started by Kolekzionera on Dec 11, 2017 at 5:27 AM, finished with 85857 posts and 10 votes.
  • [x] Plan Dis Defence
    [X] Plan And What Army
    -[X] Major- Make an extended stand at your orbital defense but retreat before suffering catastrophic losses.
    --[X] If you manage to destroy your targets early, unload as much as possible on Transports and leave.
    -[X] Above Dis: Bluff- Attempt to hold the voidspace above Dis until the Abomination Fleet makes play to take it.
    -[X] Mass Conveyors- The Mass Conveyors are very well protected and armored and will be kept back from the main battle and therefore not easy targets but most likely carry many of the better troops among the attackers, including the Titans.
    -[X] Make blatant of the information that Ridcully has gained form the enemies plans.
    [X] Plan Bleeding Fleet
    -[X] Medium- Make a stand at your orbital defences but reatreat before suffering major losses . This will preserve most your fleet and inflict significant damage to the Abomination Fleet. This is what you are expected to do.
    -[X] Above Dis: Hold- Attempt to hold the voidspace above Dis but retreat before suffering catastrophic losses. This will take advantage of the fire support your cities can provide to attempt to convince the Abomination Fleet to ald its armies further from Dis. This is what they expect you to do, and they will drive you off if they think they can afford the losses.
    -[X] Primary Target: Main Fleet-This will be the main attack force and therefore the easiest target- This is the default option if you want to do as much fleet damage as possible.
    -[X] Secondary Target: Leadership elements- Using information gained from their plans make a specific effort to destroy ships lead by the leaders of the Crusade/Valinor. Should those ships be too heavily defended, do the same for the next tier down in leadership.
    -[X] Make blatant of the information that Ridcully has gained form the enemies plans- Massive bonus and certain chance of them realising you have the plans.
    [X] Plan No Bombardment
    -[X] Major- Make an extended stand at your orbital defense but retreat before suffering catastrophic losses. This will preserve some of your fleet and inflict major damage to the Abomination Fleet. This will also allow the Fólkvangr to fight to its strengths.
    - [X] Above Dis: Bluff- Attempt to hold the voidspace above Dis until the Abomination Fleet makes play to take it. This is effectively a bluff to convince them to to take the voidspace above Dis.
    - [X] Primary: Main Fleet - This will be the main attack force and therefore the easiest target- This is the default option if you want to do as much fleet damage as possible.
    - [X] Secondary: Attacks of Opportunity - Target the parts of the fleet to achieve the best casualty ratios.
    - [X] Make blatant of the information that Ridcully has gained form the enemies plans- Massive bonus and certain chance of them realising you have the plans.
    [X] Plan Subtle Defense
    -[X] Low- Make a fighting retreat from the orbitals as soon as the enemy gets into range, leaving your defences to cover the retreat. This will preserve your fleet and inflict some damage to the Abomination Fleet.
    -[X] Above Dis: Bluff- Attempt to hold the voidspace above Dis until the Abomination Fleet makes play to take it. This is effectively a bluff to convince them to to take the voidspace above Dis.
    -[X] Primary Target: Main Fleet-This will be the main attack force and therefore the easiest target- This is the default option if you want to do as much fleet damage as possible.
    -[X] Secondary Target: Transports- The transports are well protected and will be kept back from the main battle and therefore not easy targets but carry the majority of the invasion force and are fragile. -Attacking the transports will be dangerous but have a major impact on the number of men that the Abomination Crusade can land.
    -[X] Make subtle of the information that Ridcully has gained form the enemies plans- Medium bonus and small chance of them realising you have the plans.
    [X] Plan Against Expectations
    -[X] Low- Make a fighting retreat from the orbitals as soon as the enemy gets into range, leaving your defences to cover the retreat. This will preserve your fleet and inflict some damage to the Abomination Fleet.
    -[X] Above Dis: Bluff- Attempt to hold the voidspace above Dis until the Abomination Fleet makes play to take it. This is effectively a bluff to convince them to to take the voidspace above Dis.
    -[X] Secundary: Light Forces- The Light forces will be kept back from the main battle and therefore not easy targets. - Attacking the Light forces will be challenging but will further cripple their anti-harassment capacities.
    -[X] Primary: Main Fleet-This will be the main attack force and therefore the easiest target- This is the default option if you want to do as much fleet damage as possible.
    -[X] Make subtle of the information that Ridcully has gained form the enemies plans- Medium bonus and small chance of them realising you have the plans.
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Doomed Wombat said:
Or we assassinate the sorcerers.

We made those last hunters for a reason ya know and until they're needed for a ritual they're very likely to leave their battle barges and come down to the surface to support their brothers and the rest of the army...making it much easier to assassinate us.
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This plan entirely predicates on the idea that the sorcerers will go down to the planet. If they don't, then the only two options for us are death or a First Circle Archangyl. It is foolish to make a gamble like that...

...is what I would say if we didn't have a guy who could see the future and tell us what'll happen! Precog bullshit for the win!

@Durin, will the sorcerers who can summon the First Circle Archangyl go down to the planet or will they stay in the void?
 
Reynal said:
I can see it being a lot easier to 'count' those we kill as sacrifices on the ground (near-ish to where they died) than in the void.
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They can just kill the people they have in the void.

Reynal said:
I can see the general fact of this setting that things like orbital bombardment are less effective than they 'should' be also applying to things like most rituals.
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All it takes in Embers to summon one of the most powerful daemons alive is a Librarian, a few shiploads of souls, and no more than a few weeks. From my estimation it is way easier to summon such powerful daemons in Embers than in canon.
 
Andres110 said:
This plan entirely predicates on the idea that the sorcerers will go down to the planet
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Why would they not mate :)

They're not just here for the angyel and as Reynal said gathering the souls is likely easier on the surface anyway.

Andres110 said:
All it takes in Embers to summon one of the most powerful daemons alive is a Librarian, a few shiploads of souls, and no more than a few weeks. From my estimation it is way easier to summon such powerful daemons in Embers than in canon.
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Well think on the context.

Lin.

The abomination hates him.

I find it highly likely that under normal circumstances this would be much harder, but the Angel and abomination are willing to help get it through so the mere sacrifice of several billion people is enough.
 
Doomed Wombat said:
Why would they not mate :)
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I already posted the relevant quotes.

Doomed Wombat said:
Well think on the context.

Lin.

The abomination hates him.

I find it highly likely that under normal circumstances this would be much harder, but the Angel and abomination are willing to help get it through so the mere sacrifice of several billion people is enough.
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This is still something that should be its own story arc, not some inconvenient thing they can just do.
 
Andres110 said:
I already posted the relevant quotes.
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And they don't know about Avernus BS.

And if you argue that it should cause humans and the other chaos gods Slaanesh had that too and it didn't know.

And even if they did, then it still doesn't stop the fact this is a last resort.

They're not basing their strategy on this, if the sorcerers are spending their entire time doing this then why is this the last resort.

Andres110 said:
This is still something that should be its own story arc, not some inconvenient thing they can just do.
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Why?

Under normal circumstances maybe, but this isn't normal circumstances this is killing the last saint of the emperor, something that goes against the everything of the abomination, you really don't think the normal rules ain't suspended.

Besides sure wasn't a whole story arc to summon An'ggrath Khorne's apparent prime demon despite his lack of big things to his name) at Vraks, just took a lot of killing over a long period of time.

Sure it took Vraks to do it, but Khorne wasn't invested in Vraks.
 
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Andres110 said:
They can just kill the people they have in the void.


All it takes in Embers to summon one of the most powerful daemons alive is a Librarian, a few shiploads of souls, and no more than a few weeks. From my estimation it is way easier to summon such powerful daemons in Embers than in canon.
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Durin did say that the number of sacrifices would be in the billions.

Just feeding that many people into one ship would be a massive pain in the ass.

Exactly how hard it is to do the summoning and how many sacrifices it requires could be context-sensitive too.

Also, this is something that they're only pulling out at the 'no hope' (in their opinion, not ours) threshold. I could see even having the required billions of sacrifices in the void being beyond them at that point (if, say, it becomes hopeless because we succeed in trashing their large scale transport capabilities—given the number is in the billions, it would take fully one quarter of this wave at the very least).
 
godofsmallthings said:
@Durin

1. How effective would this plan be according to our advisers ?

2. What level of leaders can we reasonably expect to target with this plan ?

2a. What would be the effect of taking out leaders from that level ?
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1. pretty
2. commodore equivalents
2a. malus to rolls, medium temporary small permanent.
Andres110 said:
@Durin, just out of curiosity, but will the enemy Space Marines be wearing helmets?
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many of them will
Andres110 said:
This plan entirely predicates on the idea that the sorcerers will go down to the planet. If they don't, then the only two options for us are death or a First Circle Archangyl. It is foolish to make a gamble like that...

...is what I would say if we didn't have a guy who could see the future and tell us what'll happen! Precog bullshit for the win!

@Durin, will the sorcerers who can summon the First Circle Archangyl go down to the planet or will they stay in the void?
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most but not all of them will go down to the ground
Andres110 said:
They can just kill the people they have in the void.


All it takes in Embers to summon one of the most powerful daemons alive is a Librarian, a few shiploads of souls, and no more than a few weeks. From my estimation it is way easier to summon such powerful daemons in Embers than in canon.
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and support from the Abomination
and a Warp touched world where the boundary between the warp and reality is so thin there are natural warp gates.
the nature of Avernus is a distinctly double edged sword in this matter
 
I wonder, will the Abominatist Commissar inflict more casualties on the crusade than the Trust? Memetic Imperium and all that.:V

Then again, that might be a part of the Abomination's psychic school or something:

– To cast "HERESY! *BLAM*", remove one infantry model from the board, the squad, from which the model was taken, now benefits from the Stubborn special rule for the next two rounds of combat.

Or something.
 
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@Durin
1. You wanted to overhaul the ground combat rules again in by including moral again (during the last ground combat turns it had very little effect). Have you done that already or do we have some more time to write omakes before the ground combat?
2. With the heavier elements of the abomination fleet light forces nearly gone will looses to their escorts increase or how will it be noticable?
 
Portec said:
@Durin
1. You wanted to overhaul the ground combat rules again in by including moral again (during the last ground combat turns it had very little effect). Have you done that already or do we have some more time to write omakes before the ground combat?
2. With the heavier elements of the abomination fleet light forces nearly gone will looses to their escorts increase or how will it be noticable?
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1. not yet you have some time. I will also be getting warhammer total war 2 soon so will be distracted
2. losses to escorts will increase, they will also start having a lot of trouble taking on your own heavier elements.
 
[X] Plan No Bombardment

I favour this plan over 'Bleeding Fleet' because this is the best opportunity we are going to get. Here we have our orbital defences. We have the minefield. We have intact anti-orbital weapons. We not only have their plans but they don't know we have them. We need to push these advantages while we can.

Targeting the transports is folly. Even if we somehow manage to take out all of them that still leaves half the enemy ground army waiting in reserve. As trying will cost us our fleet and leave their fleet intact we cannot even contest the second wave.
Conversely if we destroy their fleet then they get the first half of their forces down but we can stop the second wave completely and we will be the ones with a fleet at the end of it.

Side note but why do people think the Trust fleet will come to our rescue? They are busy fighting Orks and after they finish it will still take months for them to make the return trip.
We are on our own.
 
The big ships are what can batter down our city defences. We need to hurt them. We'll have another chance to harry the escorts and transports as they leave to pick up the 2nd wave.
 
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