Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

Earth-Destroyer said:

Chicago is currently the main distribution point for the entirely of the Mexican cartels. End organized crime and the number of addicts falls across the entire continent.

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

That's just not true most drugs in the US are coming through points of Entry (Sea Ports, Border) carried by American citizens so if Chicago is a point of entry for drugs it's from Canada not Mexico another thing thats not at all how crime works or how drug distribution works. All you would be doing is increasing the amount of violence involved in the purchasing of drugs and the number of people Distributing drugs will go up because the demand is still unfilled or did you think people are just like manufacturing drug addicts.

Drugs unlike violent crime or even trafficking are a direct product of supply and demand no amount of destroying organized crime would actually fix that only increase or decrease the ambient level of violence in fulfilling that demand.

Well, that depends. If it's less organized then those people would probably have a harder time keeping drugs they make in their meth lab on the down low. Organized crime includes things like corruption of authority to make them turn a blind eye as well. You'd have more distributers because the demand would still be there but they'd be less proficient and professional about it, everyone would be out for themselves even more so, the police would in theory have an easier time arresting people.

There's definitely statistics for this stuff somewhere but I can't be assed to Google that.

[X] Get down to the brass tacks, what's he asking for? Money? Weapons? Information? See how far his ambition goes and how far sense restrains him

So what exactly are people expecting to get out of this?

We've invested a lot in our contacts with the Library, and this could very easily cause us problems with that. We know they can make a difference if given the opportunity; Vegas demonstrated their ability to burn down the vilest sort of flesh trading.

What do you guys suppose Marcone can offer that they can't? Is it a large enough difference to make up for the conflict with them and highly likely heartburn with the Paranet? The core of it in canon was the Ordo, who effectively thought Dresden was a serial killer on the basis that he worked for Marcone.

Is he that bad? Depends on if you only count by bodies or if his lack of sadism makes a difference to you. Ultimately the important part is that we have clear evidence that this is a problem of consequence to the issue at hand. Maybe it can be worked around, but that's additional effort to consider.

It seems to me that it would take considerable effort to get this system to operate as we'd prefer, while actively harming our ability to interact with the communities we're supposedly doing this to help and the mortal governments we'll increasingly need to work with.

Moreover; think about the position this puts us in. If we invest in making Marcone shadow king of the state on the basis that he'll protect people from the supernatural what are we supposed to do if law enforcement starts doing well? What are he and his incentivized to do?

The whole thing is predicated on keeping the system weak, corrupt, and ineffectual. Our supernatural security system couldn't exist in the same space as a mortal government which isn't kept that way.

The man doesn't have the resources to do this himself, that's what he wants us to provide him.

I could easily see a situation occurring where our enemies end up making offers to the legitimate authorities, which they accept because they need the help with the situation we've made worse, and we end up stuck choosing between working against legal authorities or losing the coverage we've bought at a time we really need it.

BronzeTongue said:

What do you guys suppose Marcone can offer that they can't? Is it a large enough difference to make up for the conflict with them and highly likely heartburn with the Paranet? The core of it in canon was the Ordo, who effectively thought Dresden was a serial killer on the basis that he worked for Marcone.

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

He is, at the least, an alternative to working with the government or having to do everything ourselves.

I don't trust the US-government to remain a steady ally. I don't think we can control it in the near future, or would even seriously try due to IC-hangups.

Therefore organizations like Marcone's are the best way to exert control over our surroundings.

His people giving tips to less online practitioners is probably more helpful to the paranet-idea than their reputation can be harmful.

BronzeTongue said:

Moreover; think about the position this puts us in. If we invest in making Marcone shadow king of the state on the basis that he'll protect people from the supernatural what are we supposed to do if law enforcement starts doing well? What are he and his incentivized to do?

The whole thing is predicated on keeping the system weak, corrupt, and ineffectual. Our supernatural security system couldn't exist in the same space as a mortal government which isn't kept that way.

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

In the very long run we should replace the failing systems of both regular law-enforcement in an Urban Fantasy World (which is almost definitionally shit for Urban Fantasy to work) and the mob with something our own.

But that's far off, and until then Marcone seems more efficient than the government and more present than the thinned-out Wardens.

Edit: I'm seeing it a bit like Viserys. Support whatever groups help you, later absorb them in the Inquisition or quietly dissolve them, after the conquest.

May I ask those voting for the base brass tacks option, what the issue with my vote is? Are you voting directly to support Marcone keep doing organized crime? If so, why? I really don't understand it. If that's not it, then what is objectionable about my vote?

BronzeTongue said:

I don't understand how you're missing it.

To start, we aren't Odin and he isn't trying something like this. The people who would have a negative opinion of these actions would also have a negative opinion of him, but they don't see him or matter to his operations because of how he conducts them.

The morality and ethics of this aren't really the point here. This is about how people see things and not some objective measure of fact. Unfortunately for all of us people don't have to be right, or even fully informed, to make decisions which are other people's problems.

Marcone matters because he's known and who he's known to, because of the nature of his business and how the history around it. Remember taxes and the library; everyone at the table in Vegas knew that Uncle Sam's pocket change was the least important thing on the agenda and they had to draw a line there anyway because perception of the facts by others mattered.

In terms of US politics the sad truth of it is that things happening in the states matter dramatically more than things that happen outside of them. We were at war in Afghanistan for twenty years and the number of drone strikes each president during that period ordered is essentially an obscure Snapple fact to 90% of the population. For the middle stretch it essentially became vaguely surprising background noise to a lot of people.

Not that people are completely apathetic, but as ironic as it sounds there's always been an isolationist streak to US politics. A general feeling of the rest of the world being "over there" to our "over here". Personally I blame the Atlantic and Pacific.

It wouldn't matter nearly as much as you'd expect.

Backing of the scale he needs isn't the sort of thing you can totally hide, the movers and shakers would find out.

Illinois has a population of 12.8 million and is the 5th largest economy in the US at a GDP of $1.132 trillion all on its own.

You can liken this to proposing taking over all criminal enterprise in a midsized European country and turning it into a policing arm without anyone connecting you to it.

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

Are you talking about public perception, or perception by the elites and political actors? Because those are two different things, and you seem to be mixing the two and using them interchangeably.

In terms of US politics White Court is a much worse entity than Marcone is, because White Court has a number of politicians by the balls (sometimes literally). In terms of politics, White Council, an international vigilante death cult carrying out executions across the globe, are worse than Marcone. In terms of US politics, Molly has negotiated military basing rights on US soil, has stolen classified military technology, and fought federal agents on at least one occasion - that's worse than what Marcone does.

Why do you think that Molly utilizing Marcone's people to help keep order in the supernatural world, essentially turning them into warden auxiliaries would be perceived so negatively by political operators? Why is he worse, in terms of cost/benefit analysis, than White Court (international slave trade, almost certainly drug trade, blackmail on the large scale, extrajudicial killings of civilians), White Council (international human trafficking, extrajudicial killings, smuggling), Jade Dogs (a local gang, some members of which were cannibals)?

BronzeTongue said:

Personally I think that he's very low on the list of problems. I'd prefer to focus on all the people being eaten by supernatural predators and the larger threats to human civilization before getting into this sort of stuff.

He's trying to sell himself as a solution to those problems, but he isn't an effective one and making use of the option would make later efforts to improve things harder.

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

Focus how? What do you propose we do about those on the scale of Chicago and Illinois?

Anaja said:

I want us to take Mardone down eventually, and not just because of him being our hometown mob boss. He's a guy who wants to become the boss of our home, and I definitely do not want to share that with him.

So, building him up before tearing him down feels counterproductive.

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

And yet, when presented with an option to make a huge blow against White Court, we didn't take it. And in all regards, White Court is worse than Marcone. Marcone is, at least, human.


In the interest of at least not going with base option, and trying to consolidate the vote:

[X] Refuse, you do not have the time to deal with him yet, but you have better offers of friendship than the crime boss of Chicago
[X] Plan streetwise Hercules

BoredMan said:

Well, that depends. If it's less organized then those people would probably have a harder time keeping drugs they make in their meth lab on the down low. Organized crime includes things like corruption of authority to make them turn a blind eye as well. You'd have more distributers because the demand would still be there but they'd be less proficient and professional about it, everyone would be out for themselves even more so, the police would in theory have an easier time arresting people.

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

The organization has very little to do with it there's comparatively very little methamphetamine production in the cities simply because meth labs are highly distinctive both in intake and production but the logistics of it are directly related to surrounding areas just like farming food no amount of inner city production could match the actual amount produced outside and the stuff produced outside is cheaper to buy and grants a greater Profit to sell.

Drugs are an inelastic good that has a real production base that is moderately disconnected from the organized crime element of Chicago and would be a part of the greater production of Illinois to supply something because of the return on investment is so much higher than selling locally.

The singles for pretty much every drug in existence. All reducing organized elements do is well introduce chaos and the thing is if the organized element is actually violent or just distinctly bad enough then this is a fine trade if the organized element is not more obviously disruptive / murderous than the violence erupting in the streets from drug dealers and wannabe gangs fighting over Turf then maybe it's better to try and address the root issue first.

Functionally speaking it's why every country's Zero Tolerance policy or War on Drugs is both at this point in America is a 30-year failure and also generally doomed to fail.

BronzeTongue said:

We've invested a lot in our contacts with the Library, and this could very easily cause us problems with that. We know they can make a difference if given the opportunity; Vegas demonstrated their ability to burn down the vilest sort of flesh trading.

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

That was only after a we did all the heavy lifting and the existing Supernatural element had no resistance it's really difficult to say that they're super effective when the only time they're effective is after we do all of the work. Never mind the fact that the flesh trading you're talking about was murder most foul not actually flesh trade as most would understand it.

Which means they were just doing an actually good job as law enforcement which they should have been doing in the first place they should have needed us to clean house first. It's not like the trafficking in Vegas is a secret on the whole.

BronzeTongue said:

What do you guys suppose Marcone can offer that they can't?

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

Real active enforcement and presence that isn't relying on us or did you forget that we are the one whether you're talking about harrowmont or our own forces who's actually supplying the supernatural muscle for Vegas at the moment not the Library of Congress.
The Library of Congress can never have a presence in Chicago because the the White Court is here and the White Court has its hooks all over the actual real government and law enforcement not the fake not actually an enforcement branch Library of Congress.

BronzeTongue said:

The core of it in canon was the Ordo, who effectively thought Dresden was a serial killer on the basis that he worked for Marcone.

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

You do know that Dresden is a ranking member of a extrajudicial International murder cult, right no matter what reasoning they dress it up as every member of the white Council that is involved in the extra judicial killing of anyone in any country is a murderer and aiding and abetting murder in every jurisdiction. The fact that he is perceived as working for Marcone is just icing on the cake of actually being an international criminal.

BronzeTongue said:

Depends on if you only count by bodies or if his lack of sadism makes a difference to you. Ultimately the important part is that we have clear evidence that this is a problem of consequence to the issue at hand. Maybe it can be worked around, but that's additional effort to consider.

It seems to me that it would take considerable effort to get this system to operate as we'd prefer, while actively harming our ability to interact with the communities we're supposedly doing this to help and the mortal governments we'll increasingly need to work with.

Moreover; think about the position this puts us in. If we invest in making Marcone shadow king of the state on the basis that he'll protect people from the supernatural what are we supposed to do if law enforcement starts doing well? What are he and his incentivized to do?

The whole thing is predicated on keeping the system weak, corrupt, and ineffectual. Our supernatural security system couldn't exist in the same space as a mortal government which isn't kept that way.

The man doesn't have the resources to do this himself, that's what he wants us to provide him.

I could easily see a situation occurring where our enemies end up making offers to the legitimate authorities, which they accept because they need the help with the situation we've made worse, and we end up stuck choosing between working against legal authorities or losing the coverage we've bought at a time we really need it.

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

Yog said:

May I ask those voting for the base brass tacks option, what the issue with my vote is? Are you voting directly to support Marcone keep doing organized crime? If so, why? I really don't understand it. If that's not it, then what is objectionable about my vote?

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

Well the only other alternatives is to do nothing because some portions of the thread doesn't want to actually address any systemic issue or interact with the real world in any particular way so it's Marcone or no one because yet again the white court has its hooks in the actual federal government and the Library of Congress is just a tendril of the federal government and not actually an enforcement Branch at that. So you can trade the hypothetical perfect good that doesn't actually help anyone as it never comes or you can have an imperfect solution that actually helps people immediately.

To be completely real with you I am entirely okay with not letting perfect be the enemy of the good if we can by hook or by crook draw Marcone to our purposes then we should do so as that will have a distinct in immediately beneficial impact.

If I thought there was any real chance of affecting the systemic or underlying societal issues that actually allow Marcone to have power I wouldn't be voting for this option but so far there is no will and if there is no will there is no way.

If you have no will to work within the system or to change a system the only other option you are left with is to work around the system.

[X] Refuse, you do not have the time to deal with him yet, but you have better offers of friendship than the crime boss of Chicago
[X] Plan streetwise Hercules

Better Hercules than straight support.

Degorium said:

The organization has very little to do with it there's comparatively very little methamphetamine production in the cities simply because meth labs are highly distinctive both in intake and production but the logistics of it are directly related to surrounding areas just like farming food no amount of inner city production could match the actual amount produced outside and the stuff produced outside is cheaper to buy and grants a greater Profit to sell.

Drugs are an inelastic good that has a real production base that is moderately disconnected from the organized crime element of Chicago and would be a part of the greater production of Illinois to supply something because of the return on investment is so much higher than selling locally.

The singles for pretty much every drug in existence. All reducing organized elements do is well introduce chaos and the thing is if the organized element is actually violent or just distinctly bad enough then this is a fine trade if the organized element is not more obviously disruptive / murderous than the violence erupting in the streets from drug dealers and wannabe gangs fighting over Turf then maybe it's better to try and address the root issue first.

Functionally speaking it's why every country's Zero Tolerance policy or War on Drugs is both at this point in America is a 30-year failure and also generally doomed to fail.

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

I used meth as a random ass example. I don't actually care.

Yog said:

And yet, when presented with an option to make a huge blow against White Court, we didn't take it.

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

We had significantly less resources back then, no Sanctuary, and were suffering from AP hell. Dealing a blow back then would've been counter productive. IIRC not many people wanted to go to war with the White Court since we had other things going on, needed to give Odin a favor to get troops for an earlier fight, and if the WC gets taken out worse monsters take their place and some people didn't want to deal with that at the time. The fact that we didn't have troops on demand was a huge factor I imagine. We had no dots in politics either.

BoredMan said:

We had significantly less resources back then, no Sanctuary, and were suffering from AP hell. Dealing a blow back then would've been counter productive. IIRC not many people wanted to go to war with the White Court since we had other things going on, needed to give Odin a favor to get troops for an earlier fight, and if the WC gets taken out worse monsters take their place and some people didn't want to deal with that at the time. The fact that we didn't have troops on demand was a huge factor I imagine. We had no dots in politics either.

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

OK, fair point, and recently we chose to go to the government for fake passports, rather than White Court. We are becoming more legitimate.

I feel partially responsible for the leading vote, due to first voting for it, and then splitting the "refuse" vote with my plan. I just hope we get to at least somewhat mitigate Marcone's behavior. Because this is actually a factor I don't think has been discussed. Marcone's offer right now is "support me, and I'll keep doing exactly what I have been doing anyway. Some of the things I have been doing align with your interest, but others don't". Wr don't have to take his initial offer. In fact, I don't think he expects us to. That's not how negotiations work. We could, and should be extracting concessions from him. Like at least making him stop hard drug trade - if nothing else, this would be an important thing to Rosie, and an easy wedge for any of our enemies to drive between us. I could easily see a denarian making a play to get Rosie willingly by using Molly's support of drug trade through Marcone.

Marcone doesn't know Sanctuary exists. Gard told him to think of us as Superman - an ordinary person with extraordinary power and no support network. That was correct at the time. It's not, now. We are not Superman. We are Aquaman, king of Atlantis, a superhero and monarch both. And Marcone doesn't know, I believe. He would be approaching this whole thing differently if he knew. Because you don't make this sort of an argument to someone making national policy, and being able to get to talk to PotUS.

If it didn't risk further splitting the vote, responding with a Sanctuary negotiation team might have been a good idea. Realign his perceptions.

I think this is not the final vote. Starting negotiations does not mean that we will agree to anything. This is a good chance to finally evaluate Marcone on screen and generally put pressure on him. I just do not see how more persistent options are better.

Ivar said:

I think this is not the final vote. Starting negotiations does not mean that we will agree to anything. This is a good chance to finally evaluate Marcone on screen and generally put pressure on him. I just do not see how more persistent options are better.

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

It's better to evaluate him with a streetwise bonus, and knowing his motivation, though.

VOTE
[X] Refuse, you do not have the time to deal with him yet, but you have better offers of friendship than the crime boss of Chicago


VOTE
Is it a reasonably pragmatic decision to support Marcone's expansion in the setting? Yes.

Organized crime is a vector for supernatural influence in the setting and is something to keep an eye on, and Molly herself has neither the aptitude nor the inclination to involve herself in policing the criminal underworld, nor does she have the ruthlessness to shoot people in the back of the head for, say, underage prostitution.

Or doing deals with Red Court-backed drug traffickers. Or kidnapping and selling minor talents to the fomor.

But is it something that Molly Carpenter, daughter of Michael Carpenter and associate of Harry Dresden would do? I doubt it.
Even aside from the arguments about how it complicates her other relationships.
Not while her Intimacies with Michael and Harry remain what they are, and while her Mentor 5 remains who he is.

Molly is not Odin. Becoming(one of) Marcone's supernatural backers doesnt seem like something she would do.

Even in her Ragged Lady days in canon, when she was half-mad, living on the streets and arranging the deaths of people who were working for or associated with the fomor, she only dealt with John Marcone at arms length.
And that was when Marcone was literally paying for the Chicago Alliance.

About the closest I would reasonably expect is something like the relationship she has with the White Court.

DragonParadox said:

All Tiffany can do is heal her. She cannot reverse age.
Yes, she does and is. We'll see more from her later don't worry.

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

Flesh 5.

Reversing physical age should be well within Tiffany's capabilities, even without making a pact; Child is a Physical Flaw in oWoD. So should giving life extension. The problem there is legal, not physical, because ex-cons like Helen Beckett dont suddenly come into possession of minor age children whose legal paperwork is...wonky.

Teenage Amanda Beckett, who has spent a decade unconscious in a longterm care facility, is explained as a paperwork mixup that lost her unconscious child in the system and gave her the body of some other poor dead child.
The dates line up, DNA tests will corroborate, and the scale of the fuckup will discourage further official govt scrutiny.

A de-aged four or six year old Amanda Beckett is a whole different issue.
Since Helen Beckett would have been in jail when she was born. The math doesnt math, even with DNA, and a lot of well-meaning people and institutions would get involved to get the child away, or try to.

Earth-Destroyer said:

Organized crime collapses hard, once the risks outweigh the benefits. A few target Exalted level calls for people to be more moral and ethical and crime disappears in a year.

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

The First Age Solar Deliberative at the height of its power, with all 700 Celestial Exalts, a million Dragonblooded, god knows how many enlightened mortals and all the infrastructure of empire, could not stamp out organized crime.
And this is not First Age Creation.

uju32 said:

Flesh 5.

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

That opens a can of worms with regards to what is or is not a flaw age wise, so you can make someone a kid or grow a kin into a young adult but you can't take someone from 50 to 40. It is very game-y and I'd rather not deal with it like that.

uju32 said:

The First Age Solar Deliberative at the height of its power, with all 700 Celestial Exalts, a million Dragonblooded, god knows how many enlightened mortals and all the infrastructure of empire, could not stamp out organized crime.
And this is not First Age Creation.

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

Was Solar Deliberative interested in stamping out organized crime, specifically mortal organized crime?

[X] Refuse, you do not have the time to deal with him yet, but you have better offers of friendship than the crime boss of Chicago

Yog said:

Was Solar Deliberative interested in stamping out organized crime, specifically mortal organized crime

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

uju32 said:

The First Age Solar Deliberative at the height of its power, with all 700 Celestial Exalts, a million Dragonblooded, god knows how many enlightened mortals and all the infrastructure of empire, could not stamp out organized crime.
And this is not First Age Creation

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

This is known but any place where the deliberative or the solar exalted cared about crime there was no crime if they didn't care about crime there was crime. It appeared purely to be as far as Lords of creation seems to say a completely binary yes or no thing if crimes were not a focus of the ruler then they were there if it was then they weren't. It was indeed exactly as dystopian as that implies.

[X] Refuse, you do not have the time to deal with him yet, but you have better offers of friendship than the crime boss of Chicago

DragonParadox said:

That opens a can of worms with regards to what is or is not a flaw age wise, so you can make someone a kid or grow a kin into a young adult but you can't take someone from 50 to 40. It is very game-y and I'd rather not deal with it like that.

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

Which is fair.

But for the record, Child is a Flaw. So is Old. Unaging is a 2-dot Merit.
And functional immortality(as in, not die from natural causes) is one of those inherent qualities of a Demon that they can choose to confer as well to anyone they make a deal with.

Degorium said:

This is known but any place where the deliberative or the solar exalted cared about crime there was no crime if they didn't care about crime there was crime. It appeared purely to be as far as Lords of creation seems to say a completely binary yes or no thing if crimes were not a focus of the ruler then they were there if it was then they weren't. It was indeed exactly as dystopian as that implies.

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

The Solars have never had the sort of control over society that would be required to do that while still having a human society; the Primordials themselves did not, and the Yozi dont.
In Autochtonia, they literally live inside elder Celestial Exalts inside a Primordial and they still have organized crime.

uju32 said:

The Solars have never had the sort of control over society that would be required to do that while still having a human society; the Primordials themselves did not, and the Yozi dont.

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

Okay no how about you provide a citation for once instead of just saying something I'm tired of having to prove a negative I know where I got my source from Lords of creation literally said that never mind the fact taboo inflicting diatribe exist so why don't you provide a citation for this claim.

[X] Refuse, you do not have the time to deal with him yet, but you have better offers of friendship than the crime boss of Chicago
[X] Plan streetwise Hercules

Don't really want to deal with Marcone at all, but if we do I'd rather it be on better terms than the base option.

Degorium said:

Okay no how about you provide a citation for once instead of just saying something I'm tired of having to prove a negative I know where I got my source from Lords of creation literally said that never mind the fact taboo inflicting diatribe exist so why don't you provide a citation for this claim.

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

Feel free.

But Im not currently inclined to dig up Dreams of the First Age from wherever I kept my copy.
Or Compass of Celestial Directions Autochtonia for that matter to demonstrate how organized crime remained a major focus for some of the Alchemical Exalted, including one signature Soulsteel IIRC.