[X] It was the right thing to do, Harry wants to see his daughter and he wants her to be safe, he was just getting in his own way
Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)
- Thread starter DragonParadox
- Start date
- Crossover Fantasy
BoredMan
Maintaining the Agenda is our top priority
To add to this Tiffany cares about Dresden quite a bit which means that by proxy she also cares about the well being of his daughter.
Tiffany could've went behind his back to tell Molly but instead convinced him to stop deliberating over it and getting in his own way when he wants to help his daughter and has access to the most potent divination tool on the planet to that end. Molly even asked if she should go so they could talk about it in private, he had the option to but chose to give voice to his concern.
Last edited:
Modus_Tollens
SCREAMING AT THE APOCALYPSE
- Location
- ALSO SCREAMING.
Its part of why I feel that Lash is the best thing ever to happen to Harry, the perfect counterbalance to his own dysfunction. Both of them are broken, elixirs distilled down too far by their lives into something subtly poisonous, and each covers the other's excesses and deficits. Harry needs that devil's advocate offering to cut the gordian knot while Lash needs an advocate for that particular devil helping her be a person.
Together, you have two functional people. Singly... not so much. They are the opposite of codependent.
'Shit or get off the pot' is a valuable lesson. He knew the answer to the question already, probably did from the start, but just didn't like it.
You have to play the ball where it lies.
Last edited:
BoredMan
Maintaining the Agenda is our top priority
@DragonParadox Does the fact that Dresden has a daughter count for the Urge? Susan is trying to keep that blood relation a secret from the Reds while also staying with the Fellowship.
Not really occult enough, but there is as far as you can tell no time crunch, you can just stand in the Last station for 45 minutes to get that Essence back.
I mean, we can offer it, no problem.
[X] It was the right thing to do, Harry wants to see his daughter and he wants her to be safe, he was just getting in his own way
- Pronouns
- They/Them
[x] It was the right thing to do, Harry wants to see his daughter and he wants her to be safe, he was just getting in his own way
I really like this comment and I want to expand on it. Harry is socially incompetent. He gets along by leaning on his intimacies and willpower, but broadly speaking he's a social punching bag. Since the beginning of the quest Molly has been a sort of social-fu bodyguard for him. Deflecting hits and championing his interests whenever we are available. We haven't been entirely selfless, we've definitely manipulated him to our benefit, but fundamentally we've had his best interests at heart. Tiff is if anything, more invested in Harrys wellbeing. She loves him and wants what's best for him. She definitely spends more time and energy on playing his social backup. If anything she has more right to judge our relationship with Harry than we do hers. Harry needs somebody to be his knight in shining armor and well, if his girlfriend isn't somebody who can be trusted with that role she probably shouldn't be his girlfriend in the first place. And Harrys biggest enemy has always been Harry. Like, really the best option is for him to go to therapy and deal with his inner demons and neurosis, but in absence of God coming down to personally intervene that isn't happening any time soon. So his loved ones talking him out his doom spirals is probably the best we'd get.
[X] It was the right thing to do, Harry wants to see his daughter and he wants her to be safe, he was just getting in his own way
-[x] As far as Molly could see, what had happened was less manipulation, and closer to helping Harry realize the truth. After all, you can tell someone the truth all you want, but they won't really believe or understand it until/unless they realize it for themselves. Even if they have to be guided to make the realization.
-[x] As far as Molly could see, what had happened was less manipulation, and closer to helping Harry realize the truth. After all, you can tell someone the truth all you want, but they won't really believe or understand it until/unless they realize it for themselves. Even if they have to be guided to make the realization.
boo600
Ego sum egredietur tempestas.
- Location
- Texas
- Pronouns
- He/Him/Hungry
While it is indeed important to make sure that Molly doesn't go Salina in for-your-own-good—ing people, or go Salina in socially dominating everyone and never hearing any voice but her own…
She's been building guardrails against both of those from the beginning. It's where her faith+angels (and Charity's absurd dice rolls and compulsive need to be a problem) shine - even if they aren't perfect, or are actively awful, Molly has repeatedly chosen family and a support structure where other people matter over just forging her own path with her overwhelming social and economic power. (And socially, she's no elder Solar).
She's shown independence, but she's aware of how she (and the angels) can have issues with the Contessa question - what even is free will, if you know exactly what words to say to make a person do something? Molly isn't anywhere near being able to tell people to kill their beloved pet and have it work (except maybe creatures of darkness. Weak ones, who don't like their pets), but she's seen the difference between where she is and where she was, and she's being careful.
I don't think that this is the place to clutch pearls - she's going to become more comfortable with social-fu, but if we look at every exertion of power and say, 'this could go wrong eventually,' we'd just hide in the basement all day, for fear of our breath startling butterfly on the other side of a parking lot and making a hurricane that ends humanity.
We get a lot of votes - we'll probably have a bit of warning if Molly's going socially wild. And she has a ton of advisors, and Blackstaffs still kind of willing to shoot her in the face.
And since I forgot to vote:
[X] It was the right thing to do, Harry wants to see his daughter and he wants her to be safe, he was just getting in his own way
Good night guys, see you tomorrow with the level up vote, this if going to be a doozy.
She never did that. She's a Anarchist for one. Two the only thing that she decided to do was make sorcery more equitable because she's an anarchist too she essentially snuck in the resource allocation for her to perform her working on a budgetary bill before the Deliberative as a whole.
Her write up seems to suggest that she doesn't believe anyone should have any say over anyone else unduly whether they are exalted or not and part of that was equalizing sorcery it probably wasn't the only thing she tried to do but it's the one we hear about.
Both the doylest and watsonian reasons are it's the most impactful thing and Legacy that she possesses and it's a way for players to pick up sorcery without needing a teacher.
blackshadow111
Happy Helpful Grenade
- Location
- India
[X] It was the right thing to do, Harry wants to see his daughter and he wants her to be safe, he was just getting in his own way
boo600
Ego sum egredietur tempestas.
- Location
- Texas
- Pronouns
- He/Him/Hungry
The Salinian working kind of was for-your-own-good — she snuck altering reality past everyone, not just the Deliberative. Anyone who didn't agree with her either quickly changed their way of thinking while talking to her, or they were elder exalts, giving her a… skewed view of how people think.
Can you explain that to me? Because the salinan working by itself lowers the occult necessary(5 - 3) for sorcery and is essentially five stations of her school of sorcery are available in nature and any sorcery spell is available in that same way. It doesn't Force anything on anyone and it opens opportunities for both of the exalted and everyone in creation.
By virtue of being completely opt in. At least in my mind it cannot be for your own good because that implies she is forcing something or someone to change. When everyone in reality has the complete and total option not to engage with what she created.
boo600
Ego sum egredietur tempestas.
- Location
- Texas
- Pronouns
- He/Him/Hungry
She manipulated the deliberative into allowing it - for the good of all people, in the name of destroying hierarchy. She manipulated people into supporting her and pulling off the rituals to integrate a Miracle Shell with five points in Nirupadhika. And most importantly, she did this in the name of rewriting reality in a way that nearly crashed the Loom of Fate, killing… everyone. She was actually worse than operation Wyldhand in terms of threat!
And her plan was very much a 'give mortals more power relative to the exalted, by allowing them to learn sorcery, for their own good.' Her goal wasn't just Terrestrial Circle Sorcery - she wanted to give mortals every circle, including The Solar Circle. For their own good - and they'd only use it if they wanted to, of course! But the change - which she did not consult them on, save for those who she convinced otherwise - was to all reality, for them and her goals.
Solar Circle Sorcery has Total Annihilation. It's not even the best wide-area nuke; Summoning the Heart of Darkness is wider-reaching. It grants destruction easily, with a host of utility and even defenses…
But no perfects, or soak sufficient to work against the kind of hell a sorcerer can rain. Asymmetrical - and exalts would still have perfects.
To make it worse, even if hundreds of mortals grouped up on an exalt, and spammed total Annihilation… if the exalt isn't a baby? If it's an Elder Solar?
Dodge, escape radius, army-slaughtering attack. Or mass combat rules still make them a unit Vs an exalt. Or it's a sidereal, and they use Avoidance Kata. Or the Lunar just pretends (perfectly, from their perspective) to be one of them.
On the macro scale, her True Plan doesn't do anything but make mortals capable of mass slaughter and ungovernable… except by exalted social fu and mind control. But it does make them better pawns, and scale up the destruction of warfare.
More sorcerers means more people who can balance creation by summoning springs… and far more Essence users who could crash the Loom.
Ultimately, the Salinian Working as it was was thankfully limited enough that it worked out well - and didn't kill everyone. But… it's something she put into place for the mortal's own good - and they can always not use it, personally!
She basically tried to turn a world where everyone in the Blessed Isle personally knew someone a Solar had victimized… into one where everyone had powerful guns but weak shields. A land of parahumans from Worm, designed to summon the attention of her peers - including Bright Shattered Ice and Fucking Goddamn Desus, two Essence 10 Solars, alongside the Hierophant and Gold Shadowed Arrow…
Basically, a crazy circle I'm using as an example of the kind of hell she was pulling down. Making mortals interesting or powerful, without removing those four? Bad idea. For the mortals.
She was definitely anarchist - because she cared about people. That doesn't mean she didn't control them all the same. Look at her charm list, and her attributes.
And her artifacts.
And her plan was very much a 'give mortals more power relative to the exalted, by allowing them to learn sorcery, for their own good.' Her goal wasn't just Terrestrial Circle Sorcery - she wanted to give mortals every circle, including The Solar Circle. For their own good - and they'd only use it if they wanted to, of course! But the change - which she did not consult them on, save for those who she convinced otherwise - was to all reality, for them and her goals.
Solar Circle Sorcery has Total Annihilation. It's not even the best wide-area nuke; Summoning the Heart of Darkness is wider-reaching. It grants destruction easily, with a host of utility and even defenses…
But no perfects, or soak sufficient to work against the kind of hell a sorcerer can rain. Asymmetrical - and exalts would still have perfects.
To make it worse, even if hundreds of mortals grouped up on an exalt, and spammed total Annihilation… if the exalt isn't a baby? If it's an Elder Solar?
Dodge, escape radius, army-slaughtering attack. Or mass combat rules still make them a unit Vs an exalt. Or it's a sidereal, and they use Avoidance Kata. Or the Lunar just pretends (perfectly, from their perspective) to be one of them.
On the macro scale, her True Plan doesn't do anything but make mortals capable of mass slaughter and ungovernable… except by exalted social fu and mind control. But it does make them better pawns, and scale up the destruction of warfare.
More sorcerers means more people who can balance creation by summoning springs… and far more Essence users who could crash the Loom.
Ultimately, the Salinian Working as it was was thankfully limited enough that it worked out well - and didn't kill everyone. But… it's something she put into place for the mortal's own good - and they can always not use it, personally!
She basically tried to turn a world where everyone in the Blessed Isle personally knew someone a Solar had victimized… into one where everyone had powerful guns but weak shields. A land of parahumans from Worm, designed to summon the attention of her peers - including Bright Shattered Ice and Fucking Goddamn Desus, two Essence 10 Solars, alongside the Hierophant and Gold Shadowed Arrow…
Basically, a crazy circle I'm using as an example of the kind of hell she was pulling down. Making mortals interesting or powerful, without removing those four? Bad idea. For the mortals.
She was definitely anarchist - because she cared about people. That doesn't mean she didn't control them all the same. Look at her charm list, and her attributes.
And her artifacts.
First I have to preface kind of what the differences between the great work between additions was but this is a quote from some of the devs I don't have first edition so I can only work with what they give us.
She didn't go above anyone's head or Force anything to happen she very specifically got permission from the ruling body of the entire universe at that point to change it.
Project Wyldhand was straight up super genocide so I'm going to have to disagree there.
Though disagreement can be had about how much will a person can have if someone is supernaturally convincing. I'm more of the thought of if you can just literally walk away or ignore it entirely if you're stubborn enough or just talk louder it's not mind control.
This is changed the 3rd Edition or rather comes to fruition with the ability to make yourself supernaturally stubborn Grant yourself the ability to be supernaturally resistant to mind control Grant yourself X, ability in relation to the exalted in earlier editions it's only implied that you can do that very explicitly in black and white treatise sorcery is described as.
Inherently Selina wasn't crazy or stupid her conviction that sorcery was a great equalizer is bought out both implied and in actuality by the text of the game around sorcery.
I can see the inherent danger in teaching people's so what's wrong but it's not like everyone has sorcery unheated or untaught it's very specifically you go into sorcery be in a person who understands the forces you're messing with.
Consequently as people gain access to higher and higher Circles of sorcery the level of protection and abilities they can grant themselves in relation to the exalted. Rises to levels that are directly commensurate it's not a world where people week Shields and strong guns it's a world where everyone can be a vibranium clad Omega eraser Canon wielder.
Inherently it's a world where if you want rule or you want to impose your will you must be someone who is capable of talking and cooperating building coalitions rather than trying to bend the minds of people who are permanently self altered to be resistant to mind control.
It's a world where strength alone will never guarantee Victory because no one in the world is without Peer. Though obviously I'm fully capable of realizing that's an ideal scenario. Though at the height of the First Age and seemingly Immortal I can see why she thought it's a idea she could bring to fruition. In her mind she had endless time and resources to bring forward the vision in ways that are safe and good.
So I can fully understand that people rebelling against that crazy Circle would lead to a lot of people dying of rebellion it doesn't have to happen immediately because none of the limitations of sorcery restrict living longer or helping other people live longer. So they don't have to happen instantly or even with a mortal lifetime to resist those people because sorcery has no limit other than the ones posted above spells or workings.
Edit: Forgive me for being so long-winded and then missing this very obvious thing her school of sorcery allows this to be a thing.
According to Lords of creation she didn't actually manipulate anyone into anything she handed a proposal for her great work as rider on larger bill and then the deliberative signed off on it and apparently just didn't realize what they were signing which isn't really her problem they're the lawmakers and she's a part of that body she's supposed to put for bills to be signed.
They literally just signed it into law they just didn't read the document close enough which is really not her problem. There's a lot of things you can accuse her of but writing a thing into a piece of legislation and then acting on that legislation that gets passed is really not one of them.
She didn't go above anyone's head or Force anything to happen she very specifically got permission from the ruling body of the entire universe at that point to change it.
Project Wyldhand was straight up super genocide so I'm going to have to disagree there.
Looking at her Charms list she's literally the only solar without unnatural influence charms she has no will bending charms or things that compromise the minds of beings. She does have her excellencies both first and second for performance, socialize and presence but I'm of the distinct opinion that's not at all mind control mostly because it can be Shrugged off if you are stubborn enough.
Though disagreement can be had about how much will a person can have if someone is supernaturally convincing. I'm more of the thought of if you can just literally walk away or ignore it entirely if you're stubborn enough or just talk louder it's not mind control.
To partially address your point this is largely failing of previous Editions of exalted to convey what sorcery is supposed to do. A lot of exalted first and second edition makes mention of transformations in general permanence effects that can be granted via sorcery and then just give exactly zero system support.
This is changed the 3rd Edition or rather comes to fruition with the ability to make yourself supernaturally stubborn Grant yourself the ability to be supernaturally resistant to mind control Grant yourself X, ability in relation to the exalted in earlier editions it's only implied that you can do that very explicitly in black and white treatise sorcery is described as.
To further that inference black and white Treatise has a limits of sorcery Box just like in Third Edition
Which kind of explicitly addresses your point because there's also an ability to create spells they aren't limited in number at all. The only limits are the ones listed above so resisting literally everything you said is a thing spells could it do. They just aren't any books because they are centered around the exalted and the exalted have protections that are naturally ingrained that are way cheaper than sorcery to begin with.
Inherently Selina wasn't crazy or stupid her conviction that sorcery was a great equalizer is bought out both implied and in actuality by the text of the game around sorcery.
I can see the inherent danger in teaching people's so what's wrong but it's not like everyone has sorcery unheated or untaught it's very specifically you go into sorcery be in a person who understands the forces you're messing with.
Consequently as people gain access to higher and higher Circles of sorcery the level of protection and abilities they can grant themselves in relation to the exalted. Rises to levels that are directly commensurate it's not a world where people week Shields and strong guns it's a world where everyone can be a vibranium clad Omega eraser Canon wielder.
Inherently it's a world where if you want rule or you want to impose your will you must be someone who is capable of talking and cooperating building coalitions rather than trying to bend the minds of people who are permanently self altered to be resistant to mind control.
It's a world where strength alone will never guarantee Victory because no one in the world is without Peer. Though obviously I'm fully capable of realizing that's an ideal scenario. Though at the height of the First Age and seemingly Immortal I can see why she thought it's a idea she could bring to fruition. In her mind she had endless time and resources to bring forward the vision in ways that are safe and good.
So I can fully understand that people rebelling against that crazy Circle would lead to a lot of people dying of rebellion it doesn't have to happen immediately because none of the limitations of sorcery restrict living longer or helping other people live longer. So they don't have to happen instantly or even with a mortal lifetime to resist those people because sorcery has no limit other than the ones posted above spells or workings.
Edit: Forgive me for being so long-winded and then missing this very obvious thing her school of sorcery allows this to be a thing.
The initiation into her school of sorcery literally allows you to counter spell unnatural influence.
Last edited:
Salina's story is core to some things that come into play in this quest actually. I wish I could say more, I actually started typing before I actually looked at it and realized it was mega-spoilers, just wanted to tell you guys if you keep looking for what went down in the Age of Legends you will find out things about her and about why Sorcery still works, in spite of all efforts to make it stop.
The problem with this description is that it's pretty much literally impossible for this to happen given that the Deliberative contains elder solars with their own charms that would mean they would just know what the contents of what they're voting for, or have social surprise negators that make this kind of trick impossible.
I think the biggest issue with what she did is that she almost blew up Creation to do it. I couldn't care less about the legality of it, she decided making everyone live in her preferred version of reality was worth the risk of ending it for everyone.
If she got the collective to give her permission to perform surprise major surgery that added cyborg parts to the entire population it'd be roughly the same morally speaking but I don't think it'd have as many people defending it.
The quality of the parts and their ability to defend against hostile mind control after their successful installation isn't the point. On a higher level a half assed rider vote didn't give her the moral right to make that choice for everyone else.
I think a reaction along the lines of "this laser arm is cool, but we need to have a serious discussion just doing this shit to people" is perfectly reasonable.
If she got the collective to give her permission to perform surprise major surgery that added cyborg parts to the entire population it'd be roughly the same morally speaking but I don't think it'd have as many people defending it.
The quality of the parts and their ability to defend against hostile mind control after their successful installation isn't the point. On a higher level a half assed rider vote didn't give her the moral right to make that choice for everyone else.
I think a reaction along the lines of "this laser arm is cool, but we need to have a serious discussion just doing this shit to people" is perfectly reasonable.
Vote closed.
Arc 14 Post 66: Writ in Blood
Writ in Blood
20th of February 2007 A.D.
Of course you do not smile at Tiffany, but she can read a tip of the chin, a flick of the eye. Good thing someone's taking care of the doofus, even if it's not you. It's at that precise moment that you realize what's been missing this whole time, a thing you don't like to think about but still... jealousy. You're not feeling the least upset at the most ahem Biblical proof of Harry's relationship with Susan.
"So now that's settled we should fetch the girl," Tiffany says with the kind of cheeriness that demands a double take.
"What the... no, I don't know how to take care of a kid."
"I do, it's not that hard compared to dealing with adults, children are simple creatures."
She's not... wrong exactly. As someone who remembers five siblings going though their terrible twos, tenacious threes and fearsome fours, Daniel doesn't count, you'd been the jawa back then, they are a lot more forgiving than some people think. It's work not divine inspiration and people are people even when they are small.
"If she's used to her adopted family I don't think it's a good idea to take her out of that environment." Plus according to Alec, who would know to his misfortune, that's how you get into the really bad arguments with the other parents.
"Right see that makes sense," Harry breathes a sigh of relief.
"So bring them along too," Tiffany huffs. "What's that, money? Paperwork? Those are details, what matters is..." Like glass shattering the facade gives way all at once. She just looks exhausted and scared. "Look, I did not suddenly develop an affinity to a child I never met, abstract sympathy isn't my paradigm, but Harry she is your daughter, your flesh and blood and through you she is the great-great-granddaughter of the Blackstaff of the White Council, a man who counts among his enemies beings fit to shatter mountains and scour cities of life. Even if that vision was false, and we do not know all of it was, it is a miracle no one has tracked her down to use her blood against you or him. I have not been obliged to believe in miracles in a long time."
There's a part of you that wants to tell her off for being glib, but she paints too good a picture, and by that you mean a bad one. You don't have to think of all the terrible thing an enemy could do with the blood, the death of a child, you don't want to think about it.
Mind awhirl you try to come up with alternatives: "I could provide remote surveillance, I've been thinking about sending spirits to ride spy satellites. On the ground protection would be easier now that we have a gate on the continent, but there's still training time to consider unfortunately: language, customs, I'd have to get a feel for the Red Court operations in the city, maybe subvert some of them."
There's a worryingly large chasm between being able to scare off the Reds like you had in Vegas or even work with them against a common foe as like in Cleveland against the Pathfinders and actually trusting them to stay bought, but the scope of what you can offer seems only to grow. So what if they are not human but something else pretending? I can still get them. That's good enough right?
Tiffany gives Harry a look that's hard to read not so much in content, but context, a sort of 'see what I mean' look.
"I need to meet her, Maggie I mean and then and I need to talk to Susan," Harry says simply, souding on a far more even keel, if not precisely happy about it.
"Sure I can find her too, but you'd need to move now." The three of you stop for a light. "She's a lot more likely to move around given her profession..."
And then it hits you, yours it the power of exorcism calling to the elements and the stars, the sun, the moon and the grave. Who is to say the stain of the red court upon body and soul is beyond it? The more you think of it the more certain you are, you can just give Susan Rodriguez back her humanity in full...
[] Now, you have the time, you can find her and Harry wants to talk to her.
[] Later, let Harry talk to her, find his daughter so you do not seem like you're expecting concesions for the offer
[] Write in
OOC: I know I said we'd do a level up, but the realization that you can just un-curse Susan hit me earely in the update and it felt kind of railroad-y not to give you the chance to follow up on it now.
Last edited:
[x] Now, you have the time, you can find her and Harry wants to talk to her.