With the right build in our custom charm set we can make up some of that difference, though it's currently not very optimized in that regard.
If they're not in play they're not competition yet.
Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)
- Thread starter DragonParadox
- Start date
- Crossover Fantasy
- Location
- washington
I mean yes but in the context of my conversation we weren't exactly talking about right now.
boo600
Ego sum egredietur tempestas.
- Location
- Texas
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- He/Him/Hungry
Also, to be fair, there are technically no true perfect defenses in Ex v WoD. Not really.
We have to roll our shaping defense, for one - but more importantly, look at Accuracy Without Distance. As a Supernal, it can punch through a perfect defense once per scene. Any perfect defense.
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- Location
- Canada
Should we really be the one to kill him? If we don't act, we can keep cursing his dice pool into oblivion to ensure his Death Curse is a wet fart rather than a nuclear bomb. I'll rather not take the risk that the Merlin and the Blackstaff can counterspell a Death Curse from an Archmage.
boo600
Ego sum egredietur tempestas.
- Location
- Texas
- Pronouns
- He/Him/Hungry
That's what I was considering with my vote, yes. The question is - and we've never killed a wizard before, much less a Nephandi, so this is new to us - whether MiM deals with Death Curses, with a minor tangent of 'is it worth eating a death curse just to keep this Arete 10 Warlock down?' Can our shaping defense protect us? Will he strike at us, or everyone with us?
fictionfan
Please sir, may I have some Meows?
- Location
- Tempe, AZ
Do we have a circle mate here with us capable of laying the dead to rest? Anyone like that?
Perfect damage defenses, there's no way to bypass shaping defenses if they go off.
Holden made some trash decisions, adding more nerfs to perfect defenses would be compounding on them.
- Location
- washington
actually thinking about it murder is meat might eat the energy that a death curse uses.
fictionfan
Please sir, may I have some Meows?
- Location
- Tempe, AZ
[X] Kill him now
-[x]Or rather you will keep the curse on him well
-[x]Lydia gives his soul rest.
-[x]Or rather you will keep the curse on him well
-[x]Lydia gives his soul rest.
- Location
- Nowhere
- Pronouns
- She/her
But if we don't kill him then we can't hit him with Murder is Meat to ensure he stays dead. So, the choice is whether eating an Arete 10 death curse or risking that his spirit survives is worse.
fictionfan
Please sir, may I have some Meows?
- Location
- Tempe, AZ
Or Lydia can kill him using rest granting strike.
Edit: Or not if this guy is considered a Incantant level spirit which he likely is. Shame was that limitation always part of rest granting strike or is it more recent?
[X] Kill him now
-[X] And Murder is Meat his soul, if he has any left.
Seems like we are going to have to tank a death curse if we really want to make sure he dies.
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Alectai
Speaks Words of Wisdom... On occasion
Also, Murder is Meat isn't a guarantee because one of his sugar daddies or mommies or undisclosed can just rapture his soul to safety even from out of our gullet, we saw that attempt happen back in the Las Vegas clusterfuck.
Mostly though, I expect that a Death Curse is going to ignore the Shadow Spite Curse in the same way the Primordials' Death Curse ignored the defenses on the Exaltations, he's still Arete 10 at the end of the day even if we crippled him down to 2, that's damn close to Omnipotence in Mage rules.
Mostly though, I expect that a Death Curse is going to ignore the Shadow Spite Curse in the same way the Primordials' Death Curse ignored the defenses on the Exaltations, he's still Arete 10 at the end of the day even if we crippled him down to 2, that's damn close to Omnipotence in Mage rules.
boo600
Ego sum egredietur tempestas.
- Location
- Texas
- Pronouns
- He/Him/Hungry
I'm starting to feel like a ninja.
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fictionfan
Please sir, may I have some Meows?
- Location
- Tempe, AZ
The way the great curse ignored the defenses of the Exaltations was with intimate knowledge on how they worked and techniquely being a upgrade. Like how berzerk in final fantasy is techniquely a buff.
boo600
Ego sum egredietur tempestas.
- Location
- Texas
- Pronouns
- He/Him/Hungry
A redeemed Solar lacks the Great Curse, and may not be subjected to it again by any means in this or any future in- carnation. Similarly, children of Dragon-Blooded freed of the Curse retain this immunity and pass it on to all their descendants. All Exalted who have been cured of the Great Curse still possess a Limit track, but no longer gain Limit by any means other than having it inflicted upon them directly by magical effects, such as the Abyssal Charm Sanity-Eroding Diatribe, or the Solar Charm Bloodthirsty Sword-Dancer Spirit. Resisting unnatural mental influence is not such an effect and does not grant Limit any longer. Their Virtue Flaw disappears. When the character's Limit hits 10, she loses one dot of permanent Willpower (minimum Willpower 1) instead of entering Limit Break madness. Lost dots naturally return at the rate of one per month since experiencing Limit Break. The original Exalted Limit track was originally designed by the gods and Autochthon to act as an ablative defense against madness-inducing Primordial magic. Unfortunately, Limit created an unintended backdoor vulnerability that the dying Primordials exploited and corrupted with their Great Curse, bypassing anti-Shaping defenses through this hidden imperfection. It is scant comfort that only the death curses of the Primordials could exploit this crack and that they cannot do so again. Alchemical Exalted, who were never subject to the Great Curse, also possess such a Limit track, though they are unaware of this as there are no beings in Autochthonia with Limit-inducing magic, and Al- chemical Charms cannot give their own user Limit. Abyssals form the singular exception to this rule—their Limit track has been twisted into the apparatus by which the Neverborn inflict Resonance on them, and any effect which would give an Abyssal Limit instead grants equivalent Resonance.
• Any Charms which rely on the character possessing the Great Curse to function (such as Stubborn Boar Defense) are converted into experience, but are considered known for the purpose of meeting Charm prerequisites. Charms that merely add Limit function as stated above.
This isn't from the Ink Monkeys (which are still basically canon) - this is from the official Errata. The weakness that limit shored up was a short-term willpower debuff, replacing a defense against madness with… madness. (And refreshed WP once it's over, to be fair).
Meanwhile, this guy has Arete 10, meaning power - energy. Something we are lacking, specifically, in this world, making our exaltation hungry - Usum said it was sucking in everything it could.
And we don't have the Curse, and our perfects are… less than.
Before author statements (or even careful non-statements), I personally feel like we'd be less likely to get fucked over if we used Shadow Spite to keep nerfing him- it doesn't prevent us from using our EIPP if we fail.
Even better, have Sophia knock him out, so he can't get off a death curse. Then coup de Grace him with MiM while he's unconscious - although it would be best if he didn't see her coming.
More work, but probably the safer option.
[] Plan Bomb Squad
-Sophia has Mental Speech, so use it. Quietly let her know the plan.
-Molly talks to the Hollow Man, lowering her weapon (but not her Shadow Spite Curse), seeming to probe for information so he thinks we aren't about to kill him. Risky, because it's best if we don't use the excellency - we want our Essence for Ego-Infused Pattern Primacy.
-Sophia transforms, and sneaks around behind him. She's going for a knockout blow, and can communicate with Harry and McCoy to try and achieve this.
-Once he's unconscious, MiM him immediately. We need the Essence in case of further threats anyways.
-After he's dead? Ask the Angel if there's anything she can help with, to make sure threats to reality (like this one) can't kill or suborn more innocent people.
I also agree, Yog, that he needs to die. But death curses tend to require a death, and while he could kill himself invoking one, if we can ninja him? Kincaid has sniping as his wizard-killing SOP for a reason. I hope this makes sense? Your plan is good, but the discussion made me re-check the Great Curse, and it's… well, it needs a flimsy reason to get in, and Alectai is right about how powerful he is (even if he isn't a world-pantheon tied into the nature of the universe, his sheer flexibility… I'd rate his Death Curse as the most likely long-term cost we could deal with).
So, caution. And Sophia should use everything she has, as long as it fits. With McCoy and Harry offering backup…?
• Any Charms which rely on the character possessing the Great Curse to function (such as Stubborn Boar Defense) are converted into experience, but are considered known for the purpose of meeting Charm prerequisites. Charms that merely add Limit function as stated above.
This isn't from the Ink Monkeys (which are still basically canon) - this is from the official Errata. The weakness that limit shored up was a short-term willpower debuff, replacing a defense against madness with… madness. (And refreshed WP once it's over, to be fair).
Meanwhile, this guy has Arete 10, meaning power - energy. Something we are lacking, specifically, in this world, making our exaltation hungry - Usum said it was sucking in everything it could.
And we don't have the Curse, and our perfects are… less than.
Before author statements (or even careful non-statements), I personally feel like we'd be less likely to get fucked over if we used Shadow Spite to keep nerfing him- it doesn't prevent us from using our EIPP if we fail.
Even better, have Sophia knock him out, so he can't get off a death curse. Then coup de Grace him with MiM while he's unconscious - although it would be best if he didn't see her coming.
More work, but probably the safer option.
[] Plan Bomb Squad
-Sophia has Mental Speech, so use it. Quietly let her know the plan.
-Molly talks to the Hollow Man, lowering her weapon (but not her Shadow Spite Curse), seeming to probe for information so he thinks we aren't about to kill him. Risky, because it's best if we don't use the excellency - we want our Essence for Ego-Infused Pattern Primacy.
-Sophia transforms, and sneaks around behind him. She's going for a knockout blow, and can communicate with Harry and McCoy to try and achieve this.
-Once he's unconscious, MiM him immediately. We need the Essence in case of further threats anyways.
-After he's dead? Ask the Angel if there's anything she can help with, to make sure threats to reality (like this one) can't kill or suborn more innocent people.
I also agree, Yog, that he needs to die. But death curses tend to require a death, and while he could kill himself invoking one, if we can ninja him? Kincaid has sniping as his wizard-killing SOP for a reason. I hope this makes sense? Your plan is good, but the discussion made me re-check the Great Curse, and it's… well, it needs a flimsy reason to get in, and Alectai is right about how powerful he is (even if he isn't a world-pantheon tied into the nature of the universe, his sheer flexibility… I'd rate his Death Curse as the most likely long-term cost we could deal with).
So, caution. And Sophia should use everything she has, as long as it fits. With McCoy and Harry offering backup…?
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He would have to try and get through a perfect defenses which he won't because he's not a primordial nor can he do what they did.
The death curse of the primordials was literally in both second and third edition it's not even mentioned in the first edition core and I don't have any of the other books a curse against essentially the entire universe against every God in creation and the Chosen as a host.
Unless he's going to somehow scrounge together literally 20 successes on a difficulty eight roll. he's not going to replicate the great curse. He would also have to launch it through us our counter magic and perfect defenses he won't have the cover that the primordials did of cursing literally everything and everyone that exists all at once.
I don't mean to be a party pooper but even in that quote you gave it was a one-time vulnerability that sealed itself after they used it. Essentially by cursing the exalted in the first place they completely fucked that Avenue of attack forever. Which makes sense as you can't recurse a cleansed solar.
Alectai
Speaks Words of Wisdom... On occasion
I mean, EXvsWoD does say that directly fucking with an Exaltation is "Merely" extremely difficult, not actually impossible like it is in Exalted proper. It's Difficulty 10 by default, but that's not unthinkable for someone with Arete 10 and presumably a large bonus for burning a Death Curse on it.
He would also be contending with us because he's trying to launch a curse at us it's essentially even if he has 20 dice we would still get to defend ourselves using our own counter magic and then our exultation would also get to do that which would rapidly eat away at any level of success that he would have at that endeavor because the exultation itself also counts as an Enlightenment 10 entity and we have a dice pool of 9 for counter magic even without an Excellency.
Which would put us near even and he has to make his roll at difficulty 10, we have to make ours at difficulty 5 and our exaltation would also make it at difficulty 7.
Essentially he has to get through a perfect defense he has to get through our own non-perfect but still way too much for a difficulty 10 roll to pierce magic defenses(Countermagic) and then he has a bulldoze through the exultation itself (Arete 10).
At which point why didn't you just use a fucking Fireball which would have been like difficulty 5 and definitely would have killed us because that's a lot of fucking successes on a single roll.
Edit:There is also the fact that Dresden Files death curses are not absolute in any way shape or form they can just straight up fail to do what you want them to do or fail to work on the Target because they have some level of magic immunity.
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Death Curse only raises your effective pool by 2, for sorcery at least. 5 dots act as 7 dots for effect. Powerful and lets you hit above your weight class but you still need the skills to back it up. He would need a mage sphere at 8 dots to even have a chance of it working.
boo600
Ego sum egredietur tempestas.
- Location
- Texas
- Pronouns
- He/Him/Hungry
Ok, fair point (and very sensible). In that case, we're back to just 'can he try and kill us/our allies. Trying to MiM him makes sense, and having McCoy rip out his life force while we hold SSC makes sense. Yog's plan works perfectly well as one of the options, and no one seems interested in continuing the stunlock.
I guess we know which way we're going!
It's a shame EIPP doesn't fix already activated shaping effects, but as long as he can't curse our exaltation, the worst he can do is White King us and stick some debuff on us, which we could fix - or try to nuke us+our allies.
I guess we're getting the Counter Conceptual Interposition before Who Strikes the Wind?
To prevent further problems with death curses and allies. A shame, since it's more expensive to buy than WStW, and it costs more if the imperfection is exploited (whereas WStW just needs you to be in motion), but hey:
CCI: If the Infernal spends 2 Essence, then she perfectly defends against all attacks from a single source or opponent for the rest of the turn.
Always good to have a way to shut down a death-curse.
Cool. Uh, source? I believe you, but I want to read more.
Though as a Mage Modeled Wizard he would probably use some thing like this instead.Sorcerer Revised Pg.77 said:
The underlined portion is extremely important because without that Mama Dresden could have killed the white King by turning his brains into antimatter through the Outsider given resistance to Magic so there's got to be some limit on how effective death curses are.Mage 20th Anniversary How Do You Do That Pg.50 said:
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boo600
Ego sum egredietur tempestas.
- Location
- Texas
- Pronouns
- He/Him/Hungry
Excellent; thank you so much for this!
Well, it definitely looks like him affecting our Exaltation is right out, given the double counterspell - and since we have auto-counterspell and EIPP on call, as well as Shintai-soak active…
[X] Kill him now
-[X] And Murder is Meat his soul, if he has any left.
He can affect us badly, given Arete 10, especially since he has Life - but he specializes in mind magic and outsider summoning, from what we've seen; we have Sapphire Exorcism and IPM, and I don't think he can oneshot us.
I'm still curious about MiM's interaction with death curses, but everyone's so eager to test that experimentally. I'm on board!
Well, it definitely looks like him affecting our Exaltation is right out, given the double counterspell - and since we have auto-counterspell and EIPP on call, as well as Shintai-soak active…
[X] Kill him now
-[X] And Murder is Meat his soul, if he has any left.
He can affect us badly, given Arete 10, especially since he has Life - but he specializes in mind magic and outsider summoning, from what we've seen; we have Sapphire Exorcism and IPM, and I don't think he can oneshot us.
I'm still curious about MiM's interaction with death curses, but everyone's so eager to test that experimentally. I'm on board!
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