Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)
- Thread starter DragonParadox
- Start date
- Crossover Fantasy
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Fair…
Sighs
Fine, we won't sword the pigeon.
Do we unleash stage two of Molly's Shintai if she ends up being correct? I really don't think she is but… well I suppose it's *possible*
BoredMan
Maintaining the Agenda is our top priority
DP said that the White God didn't send the Angel down here. If the Ebon Dragon waking up was a possibility wouldn't he have done so rather than her only being here because of the HM?
Still out of state, so replies might be spotty.
The Hollow Man's doppelgangers have 10HP. Given as normal humans have 6-7HP, that implies that the Hollow Man gave himself additional Better Body buffs in addition to forking himself into multiple bodies.
Which is confirmed by Iteration 4 having acid bile as blood. Its probably not the only improvement on that chassis.
Anyone in melee range has to be aware of the potential for poison damage and caustic damage.
Only person here with poison immunity is Sophia.
Impudent Ministers? Huh. Thats an interesting way to describe the Yama Kings.
This angel is very much in the Do Not Be Afraid model of Old Testament angels, not any of those in the Dresdenverse canon.
Still, I dont think angels have to roll soak against the Blackstaff; they arent supposed to be on the same tier of power.
Wait, Drusus called an angel, but is still hanging around after being told to leave?
Fucker thinks he's Nicodemus, doesnt he? He really wants to get killed.
Or he's desperate about salvaging something from this collapsed plot.
Noting that since the angel called him by his name, Molly now has alternative corroboration for the Hollow Man's real name, which allows her to use it without people asking how she knew.
Molly knows angels can be wrong, but thats only with the rebels and possibly the Grigori, if they are a thing.
As far as Im aware, loyal angels working according to God's will cannot be wrong according to Catholic doctrine.
And in the Dresden Files, angels(at least the loyal ones) have intellectus, so this one shouldnt be wrong.
On top of all that, Molly is still a Catholic girl with a major Intimacy towards a Knight of the Cross.
She still goes to church. She considers her parish priest a valuable resource and adviser.
She's literally spoken to the archangel Uriel.
She isnt going to simply ignore an angel asking her to desist from something because she really wants to kill someone.
Thats severely OOC
Besides, the angel isnt asking us not to kill him, its asking us to stop using SSC in this particular location.
Im guessing the Labyrinth is close to/has a relationship to Things that might feel beckoned by some abilities might lie. Which now makes me(and presumably Lydia) extremely curious about the Ebon Road.
On the bright side, Ebenezar is going to go home and tell the other members of the Senior Council that Molly bullied the Hollow Man so hard that the dude who literally sold his soul to evil called an angel to complain about said bullying.
Which is going to be equal parts hilarious and horrifying.
I do wonder how the Sanctuary fireteam are feeling. Another day, another mind-shattering revelation about the outside world.
And I think this is Harry's first angel sighting.
Not counting MacAnally. In canon he only meets Uriel for the first time during Small Favor.
Arawn is certainly doing his best to keep a low profile right about now. I just wish we'd brought Tiffany
Just noting for the future that we are going to need both Rage Recast: Swift Stride and some ranged attack charms.
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That means the Hollow Man is Arete 10. Either that, or he has something that allows him to roll as Arete 10, which is mechanically the same thing, but narratively subtly different.
No matter how he managed it, thats functionally an Arete 10 Starborn wizard.
Which is some scary ass shit even for an Exalt.
Archangel Michael delivered Esperacchius to Sanya. Archangel Raphael's people warded the Carpenter panic room. There's an angel personally guarding Murphy's father's HQ in the shadowlands of death. Another one showed up to personally guard Forthill's soul in Ghost Story. Amitiel prevented Harry opening the Sight because it would harm him(Harry)
Uriel took credit for mysterious waying the Corpsetaker in Ghost Story.
Shit, Uriel straight up showed up in Skin Game to tell Nicodemus to stop something. Then another angel showed up to warn Nicodemus again through Michael in the same book after Michael drove off Tessa/Imariel's attack on Dresden. Yes, Nicodemus ignored them both, and yes it fucked him.
The idea that angels dont intervene just isnt true. Very limited and indirectly, usually, but they do take action.
And there is ample evidence that when an angel shows up to personally warn you about a given course of action, ignoring them usually results in Bad Things.
Both in Christian/Catholic theology, and in the Dresdenverse.
Molly is allowed to think what she wants, that doesnt make it true.
Especially since Infernal = Vulnerability to Holy.
COMMENTARY
The Hollow Man's doppelgangers have 10HP. Given as normal humans have 6-7HP, that implies that the Hollow Man gave himself additional Better Body buffs in addition to forking himself into multiple bodies.
Which is confirmed by Iteration 4 having acid bile as blood. Its probably not the only improvement on that chassis.
Anyone in melee range has to be aware of the potential for poison damage and caustic damage.
Only person here with poison immunity is Sophia.
Impudent Ministers? Huh. Thats an interesting way to describe the Yama Kings.
This angel is very much in the Do Not Be Afraid model of Old Testament angels, not any of those in the Dresdenverse canon.
Still, I dont think angels have to roll soak against the Blackstaff; they arent supposed to be on the same tier of power.
Wait, Drusus called an angel, but is still hanging around after being told to leave?
Fucker thinks he's Nicodemus, doesnt he? He really wants to get killed.
Or he's desperate about salvaging something from this collapsed plot.
Noting that since the angel called him by his name, Molly now has alternative corroboration for the Hollow Man's real name, which allows her to use it without people asking how she knew.
Molly knows angels can be wrong, but thats only with the rebels and possibly the Grigori, if they are a thing.
As far as Im aware, loyal angels working according to God's will cannot be wrong according to Catholic doctrine.
And in the Dresden Files, angels(at least the loyal ones) have intellectus, so this one shouldnt be wrong.
On top of all that, Molly is still a Catholic girl with a major Intimacy towards a Knight of the Cross.
She still goes to church. She considers her parish priest a valuable resource and adviser.
She's literally spoken to the archangel Uriel.
She isnt going to simply ignore an angel asking her to desist from something because she really wants to kill someone.
Thats severely OOC
Besides, the angel isnt asking us not to kill him, its asking us to stop using SSC in this particular location.
Im guessing the Labyrinth is close to/has a relationship to Things that might feel beckoned by some abilities might lie. Which now makes me(and presumably Lydia) extremely curious about the Ebon Road.
On the bright side, Ebenezar is going to go home and tell the other members of the Senior Council that Molly bullied the Hollow Man so hard that the dude who literally sold his soul to evil called an angel to complain about said bullying.
Which is going to be equal parts hilarious and horrifying.
I do wonder how the Sanctuary fireteam are feeling. Another day, another mind-shattering revelation about the outside world.
And I think this is Harry's first angel sighting.
Not counting MacAnally. In canon he only meets Uriel for the first time during Small Favor.
Arawn is certainly doing his best to keep a low profile right about now. I just wish we'd brought Tiffany
Just noting for the future that we are going to need both Rage Recast: Swift Stride and some ranged attack charms.
=====
Even after a -8 malus to his rolls, the Hollow Man's doppelgangers still have a pool of 2 for casting magic.
That means the Hollow Man is Arete 10. Either that, or he has something that allows him to roll as Arete 10, which is mechanically the same thing, but narratively subtly different.
No matter how he managed it, thats functionally an Arete 10 Starborn wizard.
Which is some scary ass shit even for an Exalt.
Thats inaccurate.
Archangel Michael delivered Esperacchius to Sanya. Archangel Raphael's people warded the Carpenter panic room. There's an angel personally guarding Murphy's father's HQ in the shadowlands of death. Another one showed up to personally guard Forthill's soul in Ghost Story. Amitiel prevented Harry opening the Sight because it would harm him(Harry)
Uriel took credit for mysterious waying the Corpsetaker in Ghost Story.
Shit, Uriel straight up showed up in Skin Game to tell Nicodemus to stop something. Then another angel showed up to warn Nicodemus again through Michael in the same book after Michael drove off Tessa/Imariel's attack on Dresden. Yes, Nicodemus ignored them both, and yes it fucked him.
The idea that angels dont intervene just isnt true. Very limited and indirectly, usually, but they do take action.
And there is ample evidence that when an angel shows up to personally warn you about a given course of action, ignoring them usually results in Bad Things.
Both in Christian/Catholic theology, and in the Dresdenverse.
I call bullshit on this.
Molly is allowed to think what she wants, that doesnt make it true.
Especially since Infernal = Vulnerability to Holy.
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fictionfan
Please sir, may I have some Meows?
- Location
- Tempe, AZ
Uh, we didn't take that drawback. Yes we are a COD and therefore holy attacks can work against us, but that is difficult from being weak against them. Also Shintai can take a huge amount of punishment.
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BoredMan
Maintaining the Agenda is our top priority
I've just said this twice. DP said that the White God didn't send the Angel down here it's solely here because of the HollowMan. It isn't carrying out God's will it's making a judgement call based on what it's seeing so it actually can be mistaken just as Uriel was with Molly's Exaltation.
Furthermore if an option is presented to us from Molly's own POV from DragonParadox and not an option presented by the voters themselves please do not tell everyone that it's severely OOC.
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Its not a drawback you take, its an intrinsic property of being an Infernal Exalt.
All those comments about Molly feeling like an archdevil out on holiday arent just fluff, they have mechanical implications.
Molly just doesnt get into fights with people who can lawfully wield Holy against her.
Keep in mind what Shintai is, the shadow of the Demon Empress made briefly real. To hit you that angel has to walk on your ground where you are a mythos incarnate, still one in the process of becoming, but farther along than you were.
She judged Hollow Man's words to be true. He said, as I understand, that we are invoking the name of Ebon Dragon in a place they might hear, which might risk it waking up. It might also be true. If we were anything but an Infernal exalt. See, as I understand it, this is a case of missing context. Funnily enough, Hollow Man might actually be thinking this to be true, and might actually be freaking out that we are invoking the big bad Old One behind the curtain to smite him. But ours is the infernal exaltation. The only type of thing in the entirety of Creation that holds a copy of Ebon Dragon's charms in its structure. In essence, pardon the pun, we are not calling the sleeping Ebon Dragon. We are calling Ebon Dragon in our heart.
This is an OCP situation that can only happen with an infernal exalted, and can only be understood by someone who knows deep Exalted lore and how Infernal Exalts are supposed to work.
By using the Crown, we show the angel (and yes, I am banking heavily on her having truth detection and some means of seeing what we are doing) that this is an OCP situation. I actually hope that her response would be to call her boss. Which might be one of the Archangels.
Ivar
Dark Reaper
- Location
- Russia Moscow
[X] Yog
Molly knows that Uriel was wrong and didn't know things about her crown. Sorry, doctrine doesn't mean anything when you personally see how one of GOD's big guns can be wrong like everyone else.
Doesnt matter that he/she/it was summoned by the Hollow Man, its still doing its assigned job. When Harry summoned Uriel in Changes for help, it didnt suddenly mean that Uriel was making a judgement call as opposed to acting in his role and job.
And again, loyal angels have intellectus, at least while doing their jobs.
We are playing Molly Carpenter, a Catholic girl and daughter of Michael Carpenter, Knight of the Cross.
Not a random murder hobo. Its entirely reasonable to point out that certain choices are out of character with the person we are playing as they have been portrayed in canon and this quest so far.
- Pronouns
- She/Her
fuck it, let's go with this, it seems the most measured, and we get to eat him either way
[X] Plan In the Light of the Crown
-[X] Use the Crown on the Current scene to ask "What are the beings disturbed by the events in this scene"
--[X] If no being that the Angel may be bound to guard against waking is being disturbed, then
---[X] Better to seek forgiveness than ask permission, signal the others to keep fighting, keep the curse going
---[X] Activate Source Code Compliance Protocol
---[X] STUNT: Bright is the flame of your soul atop the mountain in the center of this foul nether realm. Like thunder is your voice, the rumble of a great Beast Upon the Mountain from before Ages past, in the language spoken before Creation itself was conceived: "Hear me, oh angel, and by the flames of my Crown know this to be true - you are mistaken, for none under your charge are roused by my words. My and mine alone is the power invoked"
--[X] If there is something waking up, lift the curse, launch yourself at the Hollow Man, with an angel here you shouldn't have to hold the center
[X] Plan In the Light of the Crown
-[X] Use the Crown on the Current scene to ask "What are the beings disturbed by the events in this scene"
--[X] If no being that the Angel may be bound to guard against waking is being disturbed, then
---[X] Better to seek forgiveness than ask permission, signal the others to keep fighting, keep the curse going
---[X] Activate Source Code Compliance Protocol
---[X] STUNT: Bright is the flame of your soul atop the mountain in the center of this foul nether realm. Like thunder is your voice, the rumble of a great Beast Upon the Mountain from before Ages past, in the language spoken before Creation itself was conceived: "Hear me, oh angel, and by the flames of my Crown know this to be true - you are mistaken, for none under your charge are roused by my words. My and mine alone is the power invoked"
--[X] If there is something waking up, lift the curse, launch yourself at the Hollow Man, with an angel here you shouldn't have to hold the center
Ivar
Dark Reaper
- Location
- Russia Moscow
It's time for her to face the reality that this is not a biblical story and her God and his angels are just another administration of the universe. And not the almighty forces of good, unfortunately. And to start noticing all the patches that they put on reality more actively. This is an important point in my humble opinion and since DP decided to make the vote important for the character, I vote for a crisis of faith!
One: Not actually true. An angel does not have to walk up to you to smite you.
Two: Wouldnt change anything even if it was.
Like walking into the middle of Odin's power in the World Tree wouldnt do shit either.
They arent supposed to be
If a Fallen bound and restricted in a Coin is an issue if taken to Sanctuary, an unrestricted angel in the pursuit of its lawful duties is an OCP
Molly knows Uriel doesnt know/isnt permitted to know certain things about her/the inside of her soul.
Thats not the same thing as being mistaken or wrong.
To my recollection, angels straight up dont make that sort of mistake without being Fallen.
BoredMan
Maintaining the Agenda is our top priority
It was not sent here by the White God. The White God did not see fit to have an Angel warn or stop us.
The White God did see fit to have an Angel warn us against using the Crown of Eyes on an Angel. That's actually relevant here.
It. Does. Not. Matter.
You aren't point out a fact Uju. You are simply, straight up being deceitful here and ignoring the fact that the story writer is the source of the character action in the first place.
IF AN OPTION IS PRESENTED TO US BY MOLLY'S OWN POV IT BY DEFINITION IS IN CHARACTER!!
This isn't canon Molly her thought process has been diverging and evolving for 8 or so months ever since the playerbase got a hold of her.
She's been told directly by Uriel one of the strongest Angels with some of the greatest of foresight in setting, that he was mistaken in regards to her once before. It can obviously happen again.
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- Location
- washington
fairly sure dp nerfed angels uju.
BoredMan
Maintaining the Agenda is our top priority
He literally did yeah. The Heaven supremacy above all else isn't canon here.
Molly is contesting the Labyrinth by deploying her World Body. The angels are not allowed to enter save in the direst of situations. This might count, but it's almost certainly going to ring the "Apocalypse is happening right now" alarm bells in Uriel's office, and he's going to show up.
See, the issue is that Hollow Man is speaking the truth as he sees it. The angel was able to judge at least that clearly. Further, it's likely the objective truth as far as how reality is supposed to normally work. Further further, even if it was a solar exalt doing this, it would be true. Hell, even if it was a normal infernal, there might have been some potential for Ebon Dragon to return, because normal exalt is a backup plan for Yozi to be reborn through. But we are a Devil Tiger. We have already and irrevocably stepped onto the path of Ascension when we forged out Kingdom. The charms in our exaltation are ours and ours alone. The Dragon of Night might be bursting out of a Labyrinth at the core of our Soul, but it's not the same Dragon as the one sleeping under this angel's watch. It's an image, and we are invoking that.
This is straight up Devil Tiger Infernal Exaltation being an exception to how Reality works.
Uriel straight up says he couldn't understand the nature of Molly's power:
He isn't coaching it in the terms of not being allowed to. He is saying, plainly, that he lacked the capability to understand the nature of Molly's power. This is the exact same situation - an angel lacking the capability to see how Molly's power works. Not even being wrong about it, but lacking the capability.
Molly is not Odin. All I can say is this whether this is a point of etiquette or power is hard to tell and may even be an unanswerable question because at a certain level those are one and the same.
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BoredMan
Maintaining the Agenda is our top priority
Everything you said here describes my thought process to a T.
Alright.
[X] Yog
@DragonParadox a very important question which is why I am putting it in a separate post. If the angel is wrong, factually speaking, through lacking information or being deceived, and makes us stop what we are doing through direct intimidation, and we follow her threat, will she Fall?
Molly does not know, but as she believes in a merciful God her default assumption is 'no'. For disobedience to be disobedience it must be understood as such.
Pardon my ignorance, do you all think Molly is favored against the hollow man, or not? I'm not too chuffed about the angel interrupt, but I'm not sure whether she should take the opportunity to stab the bad guy or the chance to leave while the Angel distracts him.
If her essence was full I'd be more confident.
If her essence was full I'd be more confident.
Ok, that actually makes me a little bit more relaxed about the situation - we aren't saving the angel from essentially unwitting suicide. That's good. Further question - would this be a breach of the Rules?