Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)
- Thread starter DragonParadox
- Start date
- Crossover Fantasy
Even if it does, it shouldn't generate additional essence. Shouldn't be able to reproduce Usum either. SSC as signature is just better. More broadly useful.
BoredMan
Maintaining the Agenda is our top priority
SSC as a signature wouldn't be doing those things either though? Considering what we've managed with only one Shintai Molly and the action economy mechanics in play when jumping someone it's very much debatable. We only use Shintai for combat.
Good night guys
Though I don't want to put words in Yogs mouth when they say more broadly useful SSC signature effect would reduce Juiced up Outsider beefed Peabody to Dresden it would reduce McCoy blackstaff to Dresden it would reduce Dresden to a literal baby wizard with two arete.
Every hit from us will be like trying to soak a bonfire as the difficulty to do so it rise to difficulty 9.
Every roll to resist any charms that we might use on other people would increase by a difficulty of three.
Every defense against us would also be trying to roll an increased difficulty by three.
While having more hands on deck might be helpful we generally don't fight alone and in situations where we're fighting a lot of people being able to hit multiple people at once or make sure they don't hit us is way more helpful in general every damage roll suffers an increase difficulty of three every every roll that is made to oppose us would be an increase difficulty it's pretty intense.
SSC signature is: "While she wears her Shintai form, the world around the Infernal is fractured into a jagged landscape of tortured and bleeding Essence, where all actions taken to oppose her suffer a –3 penalty.". Now, it's unclear was "-3" means. It can mean "-3 dice available", in which case a number of actions becomes flat out impossible. It can mean "-3 on all roll results" in which case again, a number of actions becomes impossible. It may mean "+3 DC to all opposing rolls". It's more broadly useful, however, because it covers everything. Rolls to oppose our charms or counterspell our magic? Affected. Rolls to hit us with stuff? Affected, so we have less need for perfects. Rolls to block or soak our attacks? Affected. Rolls to summon a demon to fight us? Affected. Rolls for our enemies on another continent to plan acting against us two months in the future? Affected while the charm is active.
SGI, even if it produces shintai clones (which I feel is a very bad idea, but ok), can't increase our mote pool. So, either the clones don't have access to active charms, or they cast from our pool. Which drains it near immediately. Mote economy is also a thing, and in this case more important, I feel. SSC adds another whole layer of both defense and attack to everything.
And SGI signature charm is effectively duplicated by Proxy MInion Protocol + Extra Limbs demonic aspect. Which allows every Molly's ally to use her dice pools instead of theirs in combat. Coupled with Emergency MInion Hologram, it provides even more tactical flexibility. I put some thought into those.
[] STUNT 2: You tune out the elder wizard for a moment, meeting the second pair of eyes above his brow for what seems an eternity but is hardly a moment. Gravely, you raise your sword in salute and then into guard, eyes ringing your head like a halo. "Greetings and defiance, Firstborn and Fallen" you say, all false levity gone from your voice. "Wizards, I would appreciate what countermagic support you can spare. Olivia, try not to hit me if you can. And dont look in his eyes" Then you blur.
Molly is rolling Perception 4 + Awareness 2 + Stunt 2 at (-1BSM -3ATB - 2Demonic Guide) for a bonus of -6DC
There should be Insight here.
This should be a major plot event here.
We have 1x archwizard and 5x wizards behind us, and Tiffany laying down covering fire.
Like I said, Im still convinced we're going to end up in Paris.
So Im doing things with an eye
How the signature form of SGI works has remained unchanged even with the customization of the main SGI charm itself.
And having four normalform disposable Mollys to backup Shintai!Molly is so much of a force multiplier that its a no-brainer as both a combat and non-combat option.
For example, Molly with SGI Signature could throw her 4x Signature clones at Namshiel while she herself just stands and focuses Shadow Spite Curse on him, inflicting him with both the sustained penalties of SSC and having to fight off multiple Molly-class combatants, stacking penalties.
Or they could be focused on counterspelling everything that Namshiel tries while OG!Molly tries to stab him to death.
Or she could have clones to evac people while the main body was still fighting.
Of the Signature options, its far and away the MVP.
2) Do the math yourself.
We havent been at this for more than fifteen minutes so far, counting our diversion to Ancient Mai's quarters, the brief firefight with the thralls and healing LaFortier.
This fight isnt going to take more than a minute/20x turns, then Molly is going to deliver LaFortier back to the War Room, leave the Halls and teleport across the English Channel and up the Seine River into the heart of Paris in <30 seconds, counting the canal locks and dams.
Meantime, Team Lydia are travelling the Ways to Paris.
They had to leave the Halls, then enter the NeverNever from a safe entry point in Edinburgh to a safe exit point in Paris.
THEN they have to find their way on foot into the catacombs in underground Paris.
Most of the warparty are wizards. They walk at mortal speeds, and Sophia cant carry them all.
I guarantee that at best, they are just getting to Paris right now.
And thats assuming they have not gotten in any fights along the way with any of the 20ish junior Wardens OR any of the warlocks or any summons along the way.
Very few people are Molly Carpenter with her bullshit teleport to Australia and back in a couple minutes.
And you are misleading yourself by using Molly as a benchmark.
3) Team Molly:
Infernal!Molly + Demon!Tiffany + Sorcerer!Gunslinger!Olivia + Senior Council wizard LaFortier + Dresden + Carlos + Morgan + the elder wizards of Team Morgan.
Namshiel is currently alone.
He undoubtedly has a bunch of tricks in his pocket, but we arent seeing any yet.
And I seriously doubt that he intends to fight to the death here.
There is no immediate need for shintai.
Molly is rolling Perception 4 + Awareness 2 + Stunt 2 at (-1BSM -3ATB - 2Demonic Guide) for a bonus of -6DC
There should be Insight here.
This should be a major plot event here.
Im not sure its necessary yet?
We have 1x archwizard and 5x wizards behind us, and Tiffany laying down covering fire.
Like I said, Im still convinced we're going to end up in Paris.
So Im doing things with an eye
1)You are entitled to your personal opinion. You're just wrong.
How the signature form of SGI works has remained unchanged even with the customization of the main SGI charm itself.
And having four normalform disposable Mollys to backup Shintai!Molly is so much of a force multiplier that its a no-brainer as both a combat and non-combat option.
For example, Molly with SGI Signature could throw her 4x Signature clones at Namshiel while she herself just stands and focuses Shadow Spite Curse on him, inflicting him with both the sustained penalties of SSC and having to fight off multiple Molly-class combatants, stacking penalties.
Or they could be focused on counterspelling everything that Namshiel tries while OG!Molly tries to stab him to death.
Or she could have clones to evac people while the main body was still fighting.
Of the Signature options, its far and away the MVP.
2) Do the math yourself.
We havent been at this for more than fifteen minutes so far, counting our diversion to Ancient Mai's quarters, the brief firefight with the thralls and healing LaFortier.
This fight isnt going to take more than a minute/20x turns, then Molly is going to deliver LaFortier back to the War Room, leave the Halls and teleport across the English Channel and up the Seine River into the heart of Paris in <30 seconds, counting the canal locks and dams.
Meantime, Team Lydia are travelling the Ways to Paris.
They had to leave the Halls, then enter the NeverNever from a safe entry point in Edinburgh to a safe exit point in Paris.
THEN they have to find their way on foot into the catacombs in underground Paris.
Most of the warparty are wizards. They walk at mortal speeds, and Sophia cant carry them all.
I guarantee that at best, they are just getting to Paris right now.
And thats assuming they have not gotten in any fights along the way with any of the 20ish junior Wardens OR any of the warlocks or any summons along the way.
Very few people are Molly Carpenter with her bullshit teleport to Australia and back in a couple minutes.
And you are misleading yourself by using Molly as a benchmark.
3) Team Molly:
Infernal!Molly + Demon!Tiffany + Sorcerer!Gunslinger!Olivia + Senior Council wizard LaFortier + Dresden + Carlos + Morgan + the elder wizards of Team Morgan.
Namshiel is currently alone.
He undoubtedly has a bunch of tricks in his pocket, but we arent seeing any yet.
And I seriously doubt that he intends to fight to the death here.
There is no immediate need for shintai.
And what would they do? Where would they get essence from to use charms, if they could? Where would they get weapons from? Remember, Usum is a manifestation of Molly's Crown. He shouldn't be replicable at all. And Molly doesn't carry any other weapons.
As Signature, it's near useless and the same functionality is replicated, and replicated better, by Fivefold Court custom charms Proxy Minion Protocols (which we don't have yet, but will be getting soon if I have anything to say about it), and Emergency MInion Hologram.
In your own words,
You are entitled to your personal opinion. You're just wrong.
Go to Paris where? We aren't getting there in time to help. At all.
What he intends is not our concern. Not really. The opposition gets a say, but we do too. This is as good an opportunity as possible to test how we fare in all out combat against the Fallen. As far as circumstances for those go, it's about the best situation for such, even.
[X] The best deffense is a good offense, attack the Fallen and let the Wardens see to themselves (Melee Excelency)
-[X] Immediately proceed to Shintai. You need to know where you stand in comparison to a Fallen.
To be fair to him?
SSC only targets those who are hostile to you. So it wouldnt hit Dresden or McCoy or anyone on Molly's side while its activated.
Thing is, imposing effects on other people is a much more chancy effect than buffing yourself.
If an enemy rolls in with a Fortune 3/4 talisman or Entropy Sphere rote or spirit Blessing that gives them -3DC bonus to their rolls for the scene, that just negates the entire effect of Signature SSC on that person.
Meantime, SGI's Signature doesnt get impeded that way.
You would need to kill the temporary clones, and none of that is exactly easy since those temporary clones are packing the same stats as non-Shintai Molly(14+ HLs, Scar Writ Saga Shield, passive charms, Key Abilities, Path Sorcery etc)
AND you can use them, if necessary, in non-combat situations.
Like if you have to evacuate an area, or are searching for someone.
This is not what SSC signature does. There's no way to interpret "-3 penalty" as +3 DC. It's either "-3 dice" or "-3 successes" or "each roll's value receives -3 penalty". But not "+3 DC". I expect it to be "-3 dice to all rolls". Meaning anything below arete 4? Doesn't happen. Anything with less than 4 soak? Doesn't happen.
How can you use the clones? They don't have their own mote pools. They don't get Usum.
Edit: not to mention you trivializing the ability of pur opponents to get dc adjusters. Show me one senior council wizard who rocks anything like that. So far we have not seen them using anything like this.
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QM ruled on this a while back.
To my recollection, they get the benefits when the main body activates charms and the like, plus their own independent WP pools. And there's a bunch of charms do not cost Essence to use.
If Molly Prime spends Essence to activate an Excellency, all the temporary clones get the Excellency while its running.
If she activates a scenelong like VLE, every clone gets it up and running.
Charms that dont cost Essence to use, (like ironically Shadow Spite Curse, or Ox-Body) can be used just fine IIRC.
Our SGI clones already wield copies of Usum, in case you havent noticed.
Sophia bashed Peabody into unconsciousness with the hilt of one.
You're inventing a problem where none exists.
Ive done the math for you as per time.
Sophia is literally a telepath with a range measured in tens of miles.
Tiffany knows both what she feels like and has a contract/Pact with Lydia, which means they can talk over distances.
Molly has a Crown that we can use with a scene as a focus.
This is not an issue. We can find our people fast.
What he intends is very much our concern.
As demonstrated by what happened with the thralls who were boobytrapped, an elder wizard with preptime is capable of a fair bit of mischief, never mind when he's backed by a Fallen Angel. There's a reason why Im opposed to the wizards doing anything other than countermagic unless absolutely necessary.
No it isnt. The story arc isnt over and the Hollow Man's conspiracy is still centered in Paris.
Furthermore, this is a fucking wizard, not a bruiser like Magog or Ursiel; close quarters combat is not his forte. Shintai is the wrong tool for the current situation as it stands.
Besides, Tiffany ALREADY told us where we rate in a fist fight with most Denarians.
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BoredMan
Maintaining the Agenda is our top priority
If your voting for Yog's plan would it not make more sense to add some bits from Uju's (like Tiffany's buff to our stamina) to it to increase effectiveness?
- Location
- Brazil
I added an addition to my vow reminding him of just that and I trust that he will do it, so as not to make any more identical plans unnecessarily.
If they have a -3 DC reducer, negating that is better than more action economy. We're already at the point where we risk mote tapping in a long fight, adding the ability to dump our entire mote pool in a single round may sound like a good idea and lends itself well to speed blitzes but relies on sources of free damage that we just do not have and getting would require us to carry gear around for the clones in question.
I am far more familiar with d20 systems than d6 but even in a d20 system +/-3 to all rolls is ludicrously powerful, the strongest attack buff spell in PF1e is heroic invocation which gives +4 to hit and damage, -3 to all enemy rolls functionally means that they go from succeeding if they don't botch to succeeding on a 4 or above, and so on. SSC signature charm basically tells everyone you must be this tall to play where if you cannot normally succeed on it at a 3 you don't get to do it. The exact average is a bit difficult to calculate but it could essentially be thought of as the enemy gets roughly half the successes they usually do and anything at the edge of their ability is no longer doable, and the big thing is that it costs no essence to use, whereas the best case scenario for SGI signature is being able to throw GSNF on a pre prepared combat sorcery or similar? Most of our offensive ability is in the sword, I suppose we could also buy principle invoking onslaught and spam clones with Davy Crocketts but that seems a little collateral heavy given our usual environs.
I am far more familiar with d20 systems than d6 but even in a d20 system +/-3 to all rolls is ludicrously powerful, the strongest attack buff spell in PF1e is heroic invocation which gives +4 to hit and damage, -3 to all enemy rolls functionally means that they go from succeeding if they don't botch to succeeding on a 4 or above, and so on. SSC signature charm basically tells everyone you must be this tall to play where if you cannot normally succeed on it at a 3 you don't get to do it. The exact average is a bit difficult to calculate but it could essentially be thought of as the enemy gets roughly half the successes they usually do and anything at the edge of their ability is no longer doable, and the big thing is that it costs no essence to use, whereas the best case scenario for SGI signature is being able to throw GSNF on a pre prepared combat sorcery or similar? Most of our offensive ability is in the sword, I suppose we could also buy principle invoking onslaught and spam clones with Davy Crocketts but that seems a little collateral heavy given our usual environs.
You....do realize that removing dice from a dice pool is less effective than increasing the DCs, right?
Going from DC6 to DC9 is a nightmare for dice rolls.
I mean, sure, if you are arguing that SSC signature is to deduct 3 dice from dicepools, Im not going to stop you.
But you are actually nerfing SSC with that definition.
Im honestly unsure if you understand the mechanics of what you are arguing for.
Like I said, the clones get free activations when Molly uses Charms that cost Essence, and non-Essence charms are free.
My dude.
We walked through the Wicked City where there was a Realm wide DC malus to invaders.
You designed Olivia with Hellweaving 3 which gives her a -2/-3DC bonus to her rolls for following perceived wishes.
None of this is stuff you havent already seen in this quest.
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- Location
- Brazil
I didn't understand the math but I know that, since there is a possibility that our enemies have a blessing of luck strong enough to practically negate our magic as uju told you, it would be much better to negate something like that with our signature than to have more actions in combat so I've already decided which charm I'm going to vote on for the next signature vote.
Thats where you have clones casting SSC.
Or using Fortune Path Sorcery. Or otherwise acting.
As opposed to, you know, trying to activate SSC Signature against people who came prepared for it.
The fact that Im having to argue about how important free Extra Actions are kinda boggles my mind.
Action economy wins battles.
- Location
- washington
bit annoying the fallen in the coins are able to arbitrarily do shit they couldn't in canon. I mean at the very least if their affecting the world angels should be allowed to do things if they can.
Anyway, thats in the future.
Coming back to this vote:
======
VOTE
[X] Plan Wizardkiller
-[X]The best defense is a good offense, attack the Fallen and let the Wardens see to themselves (Melee Excelency)
-[X]Molly: Attack with Melee Excellency
-[X]Tiffany: Pre-Buff on way here: Flesh 3: Personal Stamina to 10
-[X]Tiffany: Flesh 3: Buff Olivia's Dexterity
-[X]Olivia: Open fire
-[X]Wizards: Countermagic primary
-[X]STUNT OPTION 1: You make an airy gesture at him with Dark Sun as your eyes case the room."Dont you worry about that." Between heartbeats you are in his face, the viridian light of your anima casting his face in green illumination as his eyes dilate. "Im sure, we can make an argument that you shouldnt be worrying so much about going quietly" your sword parts the air with transhuman grace, time and again."As to where you are going to. And what the price will be."
-[X] STUNT OPTION 2: You tune out the elder wizard for a moment, meeting the second pair of eyes above his brow for what seems an eternity but is hardly a moment. Gravely, you raise your sword in salute and then into guard, eyes ringing your head like a halo. "Greetings and defiance, Firstborn and Fallen" you say, all false levity gone from your voice. "Wizards, I would appreciate what countermagic support you can spare. Olivia, try not to hit me if you can. And dont look in his eyes" Then you blur forward.
STATUS
Essence 12- 1 Melee Excellency = 11/18
Willpower 6/9
HP 15/15
Active: BSM + ATB + Hellscry Chakra
TIFFANY
Health Full
Faith 2/3
OLIVIA
Health Full
Mana 3/5
Demon Chi 3/3
WIZARDS
Full Health
Coming back to this vote:
======
VOTE
[X] Plan Wizardkiller
-[X]The best defense is a good offense, attack the Fallen and let the Wardens see to themselves (Melee Excelency)
-[X]Molly: Attack with Melee Excellency
-[X]Tiffany: Pre-Buff on way here: Flesh 3: Personal Stamina to 10
-[X]Tiffany: Flesh 3: Buff Olivia's Dexterity
-[X]Olivia: Open fire
-[X]Wizards: Countermagic primary
-[X]STUNT OPTION 1: You make an airy gesture at him with Dark Sun as your eyes case the room."Dont you worry about that." Between heartbeats you are in his face, the viridian light of your anima casting his face in green illumination as his eyes dilate. "Im sure, we can make an argument that you shouldnt be worrying so much about going quietly" your sword parts the air with transhuman grace, time and again."As to where you are going to. And what the price will be."
-[X] STUNT OPTION 2: You tune out the elder wizard for a moment, meeting the second pair of eyes above his brow for what seems an eternity but is hardly a moment. Gravely, you raise your sword in salute and then into guard, eyes ringing your head like a halo. "Greetings and defiance, Firstborn and Fallen" you say, all false levity gone from your voice. "Wizards, I would appreciate what countermagic support you can spare. Olivia, try not to hit me if you can. And dont look in his eyes" Then you blur forward.
STATUS
Essence 12- 1 Melee Excellency = 11/18
Willpower 6/9
HP 15/15
Active: BSM + ATB + Hellscry Chakra
TIFFANY
Health Full
Faith 2/3
OLIVIA
Health Full
Mana 3/5
Demon Chi 3/3
WIZARDS
Full Health
[X] Uju32
The Young Wizards quote is super meaningful. Hopefully our enemies haven't been reading that series for ideas or we will have to deal with turning the Sun off and on again.
The Young Wizards quote is super meaningful. Hopefully our enemies haven't been reading that series for ideas or we will have to deal with turning the Sun off and on again.
To be honest they're about the same because the dice run on a meets it beats it basis and generall there is no threshold with threshold rules they're still about the same but removing dice is slightly more effective because you just have way less of a chance of meeting that threshold of three/four/Five success necessary to form that feat of magic/glamour/gnosis. Increasing the DC is roughly the same as removing Dice from a pool.
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I was using McCoy and Peabody as examples because they're both Enlightenment eight Wizards in this and if Shadow Spite curse took off three dice they would be Enlightenment five which would make them equal to Dresden if it took all three dice of Dresden it would reduce him to essentially a neophyte by Mage the Ascension terminology.
Generally Mages don't seem to maneuver or operate with entropy spells in general the only one we've seen is Carlos and that's only tangential related to his water specialty rather than something he's very specifically studying for the manipulation of probability.
There's also the fact that Fortune talismans which whether they're path of Enchantment or not would still have conditions that would need to be met to be used or they might be destroyed by Shadow Spike curse because they're the things that output the effect and Mortal magic items are nowhere near durable enough to handle that level of heat.
Wizards really couldn't cast that kind of spell with Shadow Spite curse up either you would need a threshold of five successes three for each level of difficulty reduced and two for the duration and it would be a difficulty five spell which means unless you're someone like McCoy you're almost certainly not getting that in a single roll.
Dresden with a Arete of five has a whopping 7% chance of casting that. He's also meant to be a really powerful wizard too so it's not like any and everyone has a chance either.
Hell McCoy or Peabody with an Arete of eight only have a 60% chance of being able to cast that spell. If they're already in the effect when they attempt to cast it they're down to 7%.
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