Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

Dear participants of the topic, why are we discussing canon? This is not canon. This is an AU by the Dragonparadox. We have a different story fpr Mab. Yes, I understand, we have no other sources. But the canon disappeared at the start of the quest where Exaltet is the past of this world.

For the immense majority of fics, *is the same unless noted* is the norm.

We know that Mab has a different backstory here, but before learning that there was no reason to think she did.

Same here, with the addition of BronzeTongue's remark that the setting is supposed to have followed canon if the exaltation hadn't happened, so normally we should expect the participants to have at least similar ressources than in canon when it comes to long established plans and factions.

If you cannot at least consult canon a little, cannot even shape any expectations on it, it's not an AU so much as an original story with a coat of paint to make it look like a fanfic.

For example, Peabody was still the traitor here, Demonreach still exists and serves the same purpose, etc etc.
 
To be fair to Yog, Butcher does say that
a)Wizards are aware of nukes
b)Senior wizards in general are pretty well up to date with modern developments.
True but aware and up to date can mean a lot of things. You can't be a human who was born into the modern age or lived for centuries while interacting with modern human society on some level, or interacting with people who are, and not be aware of nukes after they started getting dropped.

Its a major historic planetary event. It would be like not being aware that guns are a thing. Still Yog's perspective on them is probably not typical of most Wizards or people in general. I can't see them being inclined to mess with bombs capable of wiping out cities when they have to deal with destroying tech entirely on accident and the mental ramifications of that.

Not when they have other options for mass scale destruction to begin with.
 
True but aware and up to date can mean a lot of things. You can't be a human who was born into the modern age or lived for centuries while interacting with modern human society on some level, or interacting with people who are, and not be aware of nukes after they started getting dropped.

Its a major historic planetary event. It would be like not being aware that guns are a thing. Still Yog's perspective on them is probably not typical of most Wizards or people in general. I can't see them being inclined to mess with bombs capable of wiping out cities when they have to deal with destroying tech entirely on accident and the mental ramifications of that.

Not when they have other options for mass scale destruction to begin with.
in fairness butchers made it clear a lot of wizards aren't science illiterate they just can't use a lot of tech. Plenty of them have modern degrees and perfectly understand stuff like medicine, history, biology, and other things.

Most of them wouldn't know what ebay or amazon does. But they don't really discount modern advances.
 
And again, Olivia shows her power at going unnoticed.

Or rather, doesn't show it.
 
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in fairness butchers made it clear a lot of wizards aren't science illiterate they just can't use a lot of tech. Plenty of them have modern degrees and perfectly understand stuff like medicine, history, biology, and other things.

Most of them wouldn't know what ebay or amazon does. But they don't really discount modern advances.
Yeah, but im not arguing otherwise. I'm just saying that Yog is arguing that they could have nukes while not taking into account the people in question. They have magic. They aren't going to bother with something so outside of what makes them a relevant military force and they haven't in the books. If we aren't expecting that for the White Council we shouldn't expect that from a cabal of Warlocks.
 
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fairly sure the white council wouldn't have nukes I mean they could probably subvert some nukes if they tried. But I mean there's no way a nuke would work long term around wizards of be able to be built by them anyways.
 
Carlos is feeling out of his league right now, but in a few years in canon he was throwing around high-level entropy magic on a battlefield with ease. He'll grow into his own, that's for sure.
 
Isn't she

In Carlos's thoughts?

Anyway, Carlos at least doesn't recognize Tiffany at all, which lends credence to Morgan having had encounters with nephilim or angelic lore using beings previously, and recognizing the feeling.

Or Carlos just didn't read the right book. That's the thing with wizards, they are magical scholars as much as magicians, but not all of them have the same interests... or the same access.
 
1) There are several real-life missing nukes. I don't have the data, but I am sure that there's also fissile material missing too. At least some of those incidents could and would have been supernatural-originated in DFverse

2) Why do you assume that it would be high end ritual? I don't know, but I would assume that adjusting the level of radioactivity / radioactive decay would be basic magic. Same as Harry affecting gravity, or leeching heat from the area, or increasing entropy (entropic curses have been used several times in the quest, if I recall correctly). That's the issue - it's hard to do technologically, from the engineering perspective, but if you can actually affect basic forces of the universe, it shouldn't be a high level / complex thing. Because the principle of the thing is very simple.
1) Missing nukes are only missing where they are inaccessible.
Even wizards would have trouble trying to get at the likes of the 18 ballistic missiles on the K-219 in the Hatteras Abyss, 18000 ft under the sea.


2) Because its the sort of thing that requires extended rolls to make, ergo its a ritual.

Rituals require infrastructure and resources. Ritual resources, ritual facilities.
When Harry made a warding crystal for Molly, it takes time, and study, and resources, and a lab.
When Nicodemus was trying to cook up a disease, it took the same.


Furthermore? If it wasnt, Sandra Marling would have been building a truckbed nuke, not bathtub VX. So would a lot of Outsider- or Infernal-aligned wizards whose masters would help them learn the ins and outs. If you insist that something is possible for magic users, you have to ask why nobody else has tried such a thing.

Telekinesis or enhanced wind work for strength substitute, and you don't need tons of nuclear payload. Nukes don't use tons of nuclear payload generally.
You dont need tons of fissile material; as you undoubtedly know, critical mass varies with material but, is still well below 100kg for a sub-megaton fission warhead. You do need tons of warhead, because the bomb is not just uranium/plutonium, and unshielded radioactive material is not healthy to have around in your vicinity.

Unless you're an Infernal.
 
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Carlos is feeling out of his league right now, but in a few years in canon he was throwing around high-level entropy magic on a battlefield with ease. He'll grow into his own, that's for sure.
Two years ago, he was at the Darkhallow fighting with Corpsetaker's zombies and wraiths.

He was the one who shot Morgan to stop him killing Dresden after he thought Dresden killing Corpsetaker-in-Luccio's body was him betraying the Council.
He was also the one who put two in the back of the head of Grevane the necromancer a couple minutes later.

If it wasnt for Molly short-circuiting the Ant plot, he'd be Dresden's backup in walking into the Raith ball and murdering Madrigal Raith in front of an audience, then fighting a firefight with Cowl's uberghouls while they were led by Vito Malvora.
Dude's already plenty capable.

He's feeling out of his league because this IS out of his league.
Just like Battle Grounds was out of his league.
He just hides it better in canon, but he cant hide it from an E4 Infernal of Molly's aptitudes.
 
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*cackles*
Oh, if they didn't know already that's gonna freak out the rest of the warden's hit squad~
As already mentioned, Carlos is young and doesn't really care about things outside his area and the current vampire war, as it is already too much trouble for him. I'm sure that Morgan, Lucio and the Senior Council know about the nuclear explosion of hope in the strongest infernal kingdom in the eastand who did it, whether through personal contacts, information from Odin or simple gossip between spirits and fairies.
 
Current tally:
Adhoc vote count started by uju32 on Sep 17, 2024 at 4:17 PM, finished with 88 posts and 10 votes.

  • [X] Plan Divide and Conquer
    -[X] Split up, you and the Circle look for the source of the tremors the wizards try to find more of the Senior Council
    --[X] Molly, McCoy, Carlos, Tiffany, 1 War Weaver and A combat Sorcerer head to the Senior Council Chamber
    ---[X] Molly: All Things Betray: 1 WP
    ---[X] Molly: Rage Recast No Cost
    ---[X] Tiffany: Lore of Flesh 3(Perception) + Lore of Awareness 3(if necessary): 0
    --[X] Morgan, Sophia, Harry, Lydia, Olivia, 4 War Weavers, 2 combat Sorcerers and the 2 Hand agents look for the source of the tremors
    ---[X] Sophia: Secret of Gaia + Sense The Unnatural: 1WP
    -[X] Stunt: You let out a sigh as you feel the tension of their enemies' plan already in action "Peabody is literally trying to tear down the walls of the Council headquarters and he certainly wants to stop us from getting the Defense Specialist in the form of Merlin" You say as the shadows around darken and the walls begin to tell the secrets of this ancient fortress "We have to split up or even if we get the Senior Council, the entire White Council will be homeless."
    [X] Head right for the Senior Council Chambers
    -[X]Molly: All Things Betray: 1m
    -[X]Tiffany: Lore of Flesh 3(Perception) + Lore of Awareness 3(if necessary): 0
    -[X]Sophia: Secret of Gaia + Sense The Unnatural: 1WP
    [X] Split up, you and the Circle look for the source of the tremors the wizards try to find more of the Senior Council
    [X] Plan Divide and Conquer
    -[X] Split up, you and the Circle look for the source of the tremors the wizards try to find more of the Senior Council
    --[X] Molly, McCoy, Carlos, Tiffany, 1 War Weaver and A combat Sorcerer head to the Senior Council Chamber
    ---[X] Molly: All Things Betray: 1 WP
    ---[X] Molly: Rage Recast No Cost
    ---[X] Tiffany: Lore of Flesh 3(Perception) + Lore of Awareness 3(if necessary): 0
    --[X] Morgan, Sophia, Harry, Lydia, Olivia, 4 War Weavers, 2 combat Sorcerers and the 2 Hand agents look for the source of the tremors
    ---[X] Sophia: Secret of Gaia + Sense The Unnatural: 1WP



Can I get some more votes?
To reiterate, we are about to go into whats almost certainly a combat situation against multiple wizards, unknown defenses, and we cannot afford to kill a lot of these people because they might be wololo'd or have been lied to.

Do not split the party.

Furthermore, its worth remembering that when Morgan thought that Harry killed Luccio in Dead Beat, he almost killed Dresden in return, to the point of ignoring the ongoing Darkhallow. And he outright died for her in canon.
There are all sorts of bad ends we are trying to avoid here with regards to personnel use, and it requires our presence.
 
I'm completely dumbfounded by so many people wanting to split the party, here of all places. It doesn't make even the slightest bit of sense.
 
Dear participants of the topic, why are we discussing canon? This is not canon. This is an AU by the Dragonparadox. We have a different story fpr Mab. Yes, I understand, we have no other sources. But the canon disappeared at the start of the quest where Exaltet is the past of this world.
We've talked about this before.

The conceit of the quest as I understand it is that the divergence point from the events of canon is Molly's exaltation. There is a merged setting but the actions people took remain the same. This is necessary for the world to look the same, because oustentably it was like this the whole time.

So rolling forward things can change quite a bit as people react to the world being different, but looking back a change that would have made people act differently in the past is no good. It would require people to either forget what they could do for the bulk of the timeline or for the setting to suddenly change its laws of physics without anyone noticing or caring.

So when I'm making an appeal to canon like "Peabody shouldn't be able to do X because it's contradict how he's behaved" I mean that whatever issue at hand is one that seems to create a backward compatibility issue. If he could do that in this manner then it calls into question why he didn't sooner and therefore why the quest doesn't look radically different already.

It's like the vertical line test for plot consistency. The same character under the same circumstances shouldn't have two different sets of options which would materially change the results of decisions which impact the plot.


That doesn't make any sense.
The white council is a much smaller organization, and has more at risk in any one facility.

The primary political issue is an unavoidable one, you might as well call people stupid for keeping all of their brains in their skulls instead of spread through their bodies.

Even if the whole senior council survives along with the key elder members also present on site, which at least some wouldn't, the loss of the center of their power is a blow to idea of the council as a coherent entity capable of protecting its members.

War is not a math problem and people aren't cold staticians. The numbers matter, but how people emotionally respond to things is a make of break issue.

The difference from a pure military perspective between losing control of say Rhode Island as a whole is probably higher than losing New York City, but the impact they would have on how people act would not be the same.


I imagine that in all their years the Council has dealt with worse loses than a single highly valued base and yet they're still around. You don't seem to think much of them
They haven't that we have evidence of.

This isn't happening at a calm time in their history. They're barely staying in a very nasty war, their internal political factions are starting to experience significant friction, and now they're going to learn the council not only wasn't able to keep them safe but that it was actually the source of a major threat.

In canon just Peabody being revealed then dying was enough that the council almost splintered. Literally the only thing that saved it was filling an empty council seat with the leader of the splinter faction.

This is all of that, plus an monument to how profoundly incapable the council was at dealing with him.

There is no nation on earth that would deal with an equivalent loss calmly.


The scenario your suggesting here is not at all equivalent to the one in question. The Hidden Halls is a single asset. It is not the equivalent of a city and multiple key nuclear facilities. Come on man.
It is their capital.

It's where they keep all their nuclear teir people. Where they run their military's high command. Where they host meetings of their entire citizenry to hold votes and set policy. Where they accept diplomatic envoys and perform various functions of state. It's where their operational records, most important library, and highest power artifacts are.

The white council doesn't have cities to lose, this is the equivalent value of DC and NORAD packed into one fortress.

The material loss is a huge problem, but the lethally serious one is the political aftermath. It's basically the equivalent of a person getting stabbed then going into shock until they bleed out.

Even if they just moved the senior council to another less impressive fortress it wouldn't change the fact that they'd have a smoking hole in the ground declaring them powerless and untrustworthy failures.
 
[X] Head right for the Senior Council Chambers
-[X]Molly: All Things Betray: 1m
-[X]Tiffany: Lore of Flesh 3(Perception) + Lore of Awareness 3(if necessary): 0
-[X]Sophia: Secret of Gaia + Sense The Unnatural: 1W
 
You dont need tons of fissile material; as you undoubtedly know, critical mass varies with material but, is still well below 100kg for a sub-megaton fission warhead. You do need tons of warhead, because the bomb is not just uranium/plutonium, and unshielded radioactive material is not healthy to have around in your vicinity.

Unless you're an Infernal.
Or you can control radioactivity. Or freeze an object in time (or just slow it), or temporarily transmute it into something different or... A lot of things, really. Point is, depending on how certain things work - it's quite possible that you don't actually need a lot of real-life supplementary systems to make a nuke if you have magic. If you can play f*ck-f*ck games with nuclear decay, specifically if you can prevent it from happening for a time, then you don't actually need explosives. All you need is enough fissile material to create an expoential chain reaction (i.e. above critical mass). Then you render it inert, compact it in one piece, encase it in cast iron / lead / whatever, and break the enchantment preventing it from going off. You have a nuke. No explosives needed to push things into place.
I imagine that in all their years the Council has dealt with worse loses than a single highly valued base and yet they're still around. You don't seem to think much of them.
As far as we can tell, no, these are the headquarters Merlin himself made.
 
[X] Plan Divide and Conquer

Don't want to accidentally split the vote over not including a stunt that is perfectly fine.
 
Adhoc vote count started by Anaja on Sep 17, 2024 at 5:25 PM, finished with 95 posts and 11 votes.

  • [X] Plan Divide and Conquer
    -[X] Split up, you and the Circle look for the source of the tremors the wizards try to find more of the Senior Council
    --[X] Molly, McCoy, Carlos, Tiffany, 1 War Weaver and A combat Sorcerer head to the Senior Council Chamber
    ---[X] Molly: All Things Betray: 1 WP
    ---[X] Molly: Rage Recast No Cost
    ---[X] Tiffany: Lore of Flesh 3(Perception) + Lore of Awareness 3(if necessary): 0
    --[X] Morgan, Sophia, Harry, Lydia, Olivia, 4 War Weavers, 2 combat Sorcerers and the 2 Hand agents look for the source of the tremors
    ---[X] Sophia: Secret of Gaia + Sense The Unnatural: 1WP
    -[X] Stunt: You let out a sigh as you feel the tension of their enemies' plan already in action "Peabody is literally trying to tear down the walls of the Council headquarters and he certainly wants to stop us from getting the Defense Specialist in the form of Merlin" You say as the shadows around darken and the walls begin to tell the secrets of this ancient fortress "We have to split up or even if we get the Senior Council, the entire White Council will be homeless."
    [X] Head right for the Senior Council Chambers
    -[X]Molly: All Things Betray: 1m
    -[X]Tiffany: Lore of Flesh 3(Perception) + Lore of Awareness 3(if necessary): 0
    -[X]Sophia: Secret of Gaia + Sense The Unnatural: 1WP
    [X] Split up, you and the Circle look for the source of the tremors the wizards try to find more of the Senior Council
    [X] Head right for the Senior Council Chambers
    -[X]Molly: All Things Betray: 1m
    -[X]Tiffany: Lore of Flesh 3(Perception) + Lore of Awareness 3(if necessary): 0
    -[X]Sophia: Secret of Gaia + Sense The Unnatural: 1W
 
The primary political issue is an unavoidable one, you might as well call people stupid for keeping all of their brains in their skulls instead of spread through their bodies.
*Squint*
You don't have any other place to keep your brain. Your forced to keep it there. This is entirely different. An organization that has existed for over 1000 years with global reach is going to have critical assets in more than one place. I don't think it's reasonable to believe that they'd have every egg in one basket like your saying.

The white council is a much smaller organization, and has more at risk in any one facility.

The primary political issue is an unavoidable one, you might as well call people stupid for keeping all of their brains in their skulls instead of spread through their bodies.

Even if the whole senior council survives along with the key elder members also present on site, which at least some wouldn't, the loss of the center of their power is a blow to idea of the council as a coherent entity capable of protecting its members.

War is not a math problem and people aren't cold staticians. The numbers matter, but how people emotionally respond to things is a make of break issue.

The difference from a pure military perspective between losing control of say Rhode Island as a whole is probably higher than losing New York City, but the impact they would have on how people act would not be the same.
I really don't think your taking into account that they made do without this place for many many years and have more than likely lost bases over said years when they were less established. This place isn't the White Council it's a matter of convenience and strategic asset due to its location. Though those who have only ever known the WC after they made this place their main headquarters would probably feel differently ill admit.


In canon just Peabody being revealed then dying was enough that the council almost splintered. Literally the only thing that saved it was filling an empty council seat with the leader of the splinter faction.
Thats not right. It was Morgan getting blamed for Aleron LaFortier's assassination and his relationship with Merlin that had them on edge. Peabody getting exposed is what tipped it over. That hasn't happened here.


It's where they keep all their nuclear teir people. Where they run their military's high command. Where they host meetings of their entire citizenry to hold votes and set policy. Where they accept diplomatic envoys and perform various functions of state. It's where their operational records, most important library, and highest power artifacts are.
They're making use of the place at present but they've made do with others for all those same purposes before the HH was bought. The Hidden Halls isn't the White Council.



As far as we can tell, no, these are the headquarters Merlin himself made.
Merlin didn't make this place, it was bought. Before then common sense would dictate that they had other headquarters and that Merlin enhanced them. They're using this one right now.
 
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