Now that is compelling but it does hold the unfortunate kind of air of nobility rather than actual power. It uses the Red Kings name as a title it also uses the Lord of Outer Night as a Noble title. That quote may be talking about her moving up the hierarchy of the nobility of the red Court rather than actually having the power of one of the original 13 created by the Red King. Then again they have the god carcasses so maybe they can raise someone to Outer Lord power but well an Outer Lord in power but nowhere near the time to learn how strong that could be doesn't particularly help the red Court right this instant.
Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)
- Thread starter DragonParadox
- Start date
- Crossover Fantasy
I feel like we are trivializing our Courts. Almost none of denarians or indeed even Yama Kings are by themselves army killers, especially if the army is explicitly a magical one, has home field advantage, prepared magical defenses and weapons, knows how to combat spirits, and operates outside Creation. Against a ready garrison of ~ 10 thousand people, most of them sorcerers or enlightened martial artists, with post-modern weaponry and armor, heavy combat vehicles, and artillery support including nukes? And without ability to access NeverNever? I don't think a breach is likely.
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I'd say a yama king could maybe take that 10k not our whole hell though. Also you know only if at full power. Not a denarian without a mcguffin though I won't discuss them being able to take a quest for said mcguffin they have angels in their heads after all. But given skingame it'd probably be at least difficult to get said mcguffin not impossible but difficult.
Oh we definitely are a trivializing our forces the amethyst hand is a largely quick insertion special teams force and they have literal cybernetics that allow them to use Rage on top of pretty great stats. They don't set the Baseline for our soldiers but they do set a pretty level of quality that is well above any in the mortal world definitely above Winters which are just conscripted children never mind the fact that our forces use guns and no one in Dresden files setting that I can see so far is actually immune to being shot through the forehead. This is before we get into the dragon Kings which have their own sets of magic and the tons of spirits and ourselves.
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[X] Leave it to Regina, that is what she does best (Newborn Regent of Sanctuary)
Dresdenverse ritual magic can be terrifying... as long as it has the right conceptual leverage. I'm not saying the portal couldn't ever be used as conduit for sympathetic magic, but then they would either need to bring the portal to Chichen Itza or Chichen Itza to it.
Otherwise it would be like the Red Court trying to use a sample of our hair for a curse in Chichen Itza, except that hair is in Chicago.
I know there are entropic curses that don't need a piece of you, but logically speaking that means they have much higher power requirements (that would only increase with distance), and if Chichen Itza could function as a freely targetable intercontinental ballistic curse missile like that, then don't you think they would have used that against the White Council? Instead of needing to get a blood relative of Blackstaff?
If you don't count Mother Winter, Mab herself and maybe also the forces tied to the Outer Gates, then I don't think that it's obvious at all, that Sanctuary's military is weaker than what's freely available for Winter to use. It's a postindustrial high tech military that has a lot of the weaknesses that the Earth's less developed equivalents have against magic removed.
You only need to remember what we encountered in Wicked City to see how dangerous such forces could be.
And the political power can't exactly be compared. We have all the political power in Sanctuary. On Earth and especially Nevernever, we have much, much less than Mab, but, ironically, the portal itself now means we have more political power than ever before, which comes with increased potential for power projection. It would be a spectacularly bad idea, but we could hypothetically have a go with Morgan's "Iceland scenario" now in South America and try to take it over.
Look, I'm not saying there aren't real threats around, like Nemesis and Ethniu, or that we shouldn't close that portal when we can (we can always work to open one later again, under more controllable conditions), but you weaken your argument, if you try to overestimate every smaller threat and underestimate Sanctuary at the same time.
Dresdenverse ritual magic can be terrifying... as long as it has the right conceptual leverage. I'm not saying the portal couldn't ever be used as conduit for sympathetic magic, but then they would either need to bring the portal to Chichen Itza or Chichen Itza to it.
Otherwise it would be like the Red Court trying to use a sample of our hair for a curse in Chichen Itza, except that hair is in Chicago.
I know there are entropic curses that don't need a piece of you, but logically speaking that means they have much higher power requirements (that would only increase with distance), and if Chichen Itza could function as a freely targetable intercontinental ballistic curse missile like that, then don't you think they would have used that against the White Council? Instead of needing to get a blood relative of Blackstaff?
If you don't count Mother Winter, Mab herself and maybe also the forces tied to the Outer Gates, then I don't think that it's obvious at all, that Sanctuary's military is weaker than what's freely available for Winter to use. It's a postindustrial high tech military that has a lot of the weaknesses that the Earth's less developed equivalents have against magic removed.
You only need to remember what we encountered in Wicked City to see how dangerous such forces could be.
And the political power can't exactly be compared. We have all the political power in Sanctuary. On Earth and especially Nevernever, we have much, much less than Mab, but, ironically, the portal itself now means we have more political power than ever before, which comes with increased potential for power projection. It would be a spectacularly bad idea, but we could hypothetically have a go with Morgan's "Iceland scenario" now in South America and try to take it over.
Look, I'm not saying there aren't real threats around, like Nemesis and Ethniu, or that we shouldn't close that portal when we can (we can always work to open one later again, under more controllable conditions), but you weaken your argument, if you try to overestimate every smaller threat and underestimate Sanctuary at the same time.
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kek the children parts a bit far winter does have plenty of hero untis and people with minor super strength and durability. Also I think Mab could easily tank sniper shots at least most kinds of snipers especially outside of Halloween. Given I think if I'm remembering right harry did threaten her at the end of cold days with a gun can't really remember though I read it when it was new.
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speaking of durability aren't we at like one actual fucking mortar shot without shintai now?
This thing right because we have armies of supernatural beings that also have magic guns that can help them aim and spirit magic and sorcery. On top of having Dragon men and spider Androids and just generally technology that makes it so far beyond most of winter Mab herself is a hero unit we would have to handle, the vast majority of Mabs flunkies including leaheansidhe could literally be handled by our army because we literally have that many they aren't humans that just die at the first sign of aggravated damage either they have a cybernetics they have magic they have equipment backing them up.
Largely Supernatural factions in Dresden Files are threatening because they have forces and capabilities that are orthogonal to Mortal infrastructure not because they are a greater quality than the average Soldier with a good gun. Our army encapsulates both of these things orthogonal capabilities and forces along with being good Soldiers with guns. There's a reason Mikaboshi was looking like he was going to be the demon king of the sixth age and it wasn't just because of his well populated hell.
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We now know that we need a consenting god bound to local territory to open a portal. Those are reproducible conditions.
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I more meant turn off and on again than replicate.
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I really hate it when Uju starts to belittle our resources and increase those of others, but when he talks about Winter's power, he is talking about their entire army, of which only a small part (tens to hundreds of thousands) are free and the rest are trapped in the fight at the outer gates. Remember, the entire Summer Court (apart from Mother), who say they are equal to Winter, really are not, because they are equal only counting the free troops of Winter and if Mab goes crazy, Titania would have no choice but to blow herself up and take her with her.
If Mab pulled her entire army, which will never happen because it would go against her own nature and that of the Winter Court itself, she could really equal and even defeat us because her armies have more experience in the eternal fight against an infinite enemy full of tricks. All at the cost of leaving the outer gates unprotected.
Winter was mostly just being used as an example there we're not enemies with them for one and two they are the preeminent military faction with a large body of Supernatural strength with the closest second being summer. So they end up being the measuring stick by which military strength can be measured. Not dissimilar to the United States in that way.
In the latter half of that statement I was mostly focusing on the actual state of play in Dresden Files. The Reds have just absolute piss poor quality I don't think any of them that we see are better than a well-disciplined troop of soldiers and have nowhere near enough immunity to bullets to actually ignore such a thing never mind a well disciplined Troop of Soldiers with magic.
We're not enemies with Mab and lot of our enemies are only threatening to Mortal institutions because they are one unknown two possess orthogonal capabilities. But our enemies are not unknown to us and their abilities are also not unknown to us the disciplines of the red white and Jade Court are secrets that we can pry with a single corpse not to mention what we already know of all of those things the secrets of The Outsiders are the same we are currently riding down the infiltrators of the white Council. With our Dragon men we fought a large grouping of cybernetic spirits and they did a lot over the work there so when people downplay the quality of our soldiers they are de facto inflating the capabilities of our enemies.
Unless the average red is stronger than a fully sacrificed Akuma spirit of the most powerful Yama King they are not of the quality necessary to bust through 60 to 100 of them never mind the fact that Reds are of a limited quantity in the first place being turned into a half red does not indenture you to the red court or hell even being turned into a full red does not actually make you loyal to the red Court they can just run the second they think they can get the opportunity which considering battles with dragon men with exploding Javalins are a possibility I imagine we'll see a lot of desertion.
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Though in fairness the lords and the red king are pretty hefty in supernatural power but I'd still bet a few thousand soldiers with guns over even the red king. Given that'd be a stupid fight on our mens party since esoteric powers on the kings part and we have range weapons.
I suspect that 1 man with a thermobaric missile launcher and the element of surprise could kill the Red King. We've seen no one in the Dresden files throw around that much more personal firepower than that.
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I mean we know of those who could according to jim but their mostly limtied it seems to very rare action. Except the big D Dragons who according to him could destroy the universe but don't cause they'd be out of a home unlike archangels. Not that I remotely believe their that powerful in quest but its some neat lore and makes what Michael did way more impressive than it already was. Though its not like personal power translates to personal durability in this series its more like roshambo for fighting shit really. I mean an archangel can fall while lending grace just if michael acted badly. The most durable being we've seen take damage at all was ethniu right and she was in armor? Given fairly sure an archangel is more durable conventionally but its not like we've got word or of that much less actual in story evidence.
Edit: Is it weird I really really wanna steal ethnius weapon and armor?
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Still would not work we can easily setup a few lasers that just blast the gate to sanctuary, each powerful enough to destroy a battleship. A choke point is super easy to hold for the defender.
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in fairness mab definitely has some esoteric people that could probably push through but thats not exactly an army.
speaking long term there any charms or spells that would allow us to steal weapons and armors attuned to someone else? Like whatever ethniu has I assume its attuned or something..
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And that's why it's kinda irrelevant to the argument, because Nicodemus knew that, too, when he chose to assault Arctis Tor.
The power of the garrison of the Outer Gates is irrelevant in the discussion about Earth/Nevernever political balance. Outside how it influences Mab's motives of supplying it, how it gives her prestige and Winter the status of a currently necessary evil, and how much effort it would be to maybe one day in the future to replace or reinforce it.
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Yes, it's useless to talk about it, but that's exactly what was happening between Uju and Degorium, using Winter as an exaggeration of strength measures in several posts. Ridiculous, but they were.
I said it to show how ridiculous it was and hopefully move on to other topics.
fictionfan
Please sir, may I have some Meows?
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I feel fairly sure that the denarians invasion of Artis Tor was done with the help of Maeve the infected Winter Lady somehow.
I do know it's ridiculous but they're literally the only one worth mentioning. This is by virtue of our numbers but most other major Supernatural faction we see are numbered in the dozens to less than 50,000 total. Winter comes up because it's literally the only force that we ever see that has an actual Army amount of people in it. By virtue of sheer numbers alone before we get into the supernatural abilities before we get into the better training before we get into the better equipment we outnumber every individual Supernatural faction on Earth by multitudes.
That is also true of Every Nation on Earth that has a military worth talking about but you know that goes to the point of the masquerade Supernaturals are threatening because they have uncanny abilities and are relatively divorced from infrastructure as well as being information blackouts rather than actually being a threat to a militarized power.
I might be wrong about these figures but even the Reds one of the most prolific supernatural creatures in the mortal world still have a limited quantity of them even if they Mass turn people it doesn't instantly make more Reds it makes half Reds that might become full Reds at some point none of which are guaranteed to be loyal.
So when people hype up the denarians when people hype up the Yama Kings when people hype up our foes it always comes down back to Winter because there's some kind of weird obsession with being the underdog rather than just accepting that yeah we are in a privilege to position of nearly unparalleled executive and Military might and how we use our abilities are important when and why we choose to deploy are important. But it always comes back to there's always a bigger fish when the biggest fish (Winter) is occupied with another bigger fish(Outsiders) rather than trying to look inward from people who are supposed to be in reality.
That's why I was comfortable with mines and cameras with only 30 Personnel initially because on top of the tendency to move in small packs even this one a lord of outer night still only had about 20 with him rather than a greater size of group because inherently on top of being predators most Supernaturals tend to move in relatively small circles simply because there's not enough of them or the membership is to distributed across the entire planet to make that worthwhile.
It's why these conversations about enemy power always boils down to people who are the top end of the top end Nicodemus, Yama Kings, Nemesis. Being able to do anything they want at any moment without any concern for what they may be embroiled in at any given second. The nickel heads hate each other even to try and kill the archive an action that would benefit the rest of the silvers for the rest of the time they exist could still only gather about 12 of them yet there's a concern that somehow more are going to show up in the middle of South America try and get into a hell controlled by another person. Same goes for the regional power Yama Kings same goes for The Limited slot needs some kind of catalyst that allows him to infiltrate Nemesis.
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Funnily we also have a whole bunch of crown focuses to use against the red court with whatever remains of the lord and the various vampires we're taking to our hell. Probably a couple dozen some of which will likely be good enough to know what the red court is going to be planning for our hellgate and more. Oh and you know whatever other info these long time vampires have about the red court in general and ARE gonna spill.
fictionfan
Please sir, may I have some Meows?
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- Tempe, AZ
Also focuses for Shadow Spite Curse.
No not really.
I don't get where this hype and reverence for dresden files enemies comes from. We saw that a millitia with guns absolutely wreck the formers and they are kicking many factions asses.
We have seen a a titan manhandle winter queen and everyone else and she isn't impressive.
An artillery battalion would body everyone in that war and we have quite literally 100000 thousand times the resources.
Like the Technocracy could conquer this world over a long weekend. Its a low tier urban fantasy world. Like the final armies of light from the wheel of time gap everyone of these guys and they are mostly medieval/early modern.