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Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

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Nyarky said:
We don't know that Rashid doesn't know though?
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The Crown vision said that "even the wisest" on the White Council are unaware of Peabody's status as possessed. Rashid is a member of the White Council. Rashid has a ability that allows him to see Outsider possessed people. If he knew that Peabody was a traitor shouldn't he also know of the Outsider riding shotgun?

The likelihood that he'd be aware of one and somehow not the other is exceedingly unlikely. The reasonable explanation is that he isn't aware of either.

Edit: Actually it doesn't say amongst the White Council specifically it just says "unseen to even the wisest" which is even more damning.
 
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Seriously, this is a multi page argument about peabody. Dude is a invested mage. Its not a big deal.

People in the world of darkness spank nephandi all the time, thats why they choose to hide. We can take him and without issue even.
 
[X] Get to meet some more 'interesting folks' Ghouls and Vampires supposedly down in the 'Undercity' Wasn't one city big enough?
 
[X] Get to meet some more 'interesting folks' Ghouls and Vampires supposedly down in the 'Undercity' Wasn't one city big enough?
 
[X] Get to meet some more 'interesting folks' Ghouls and Vampires supposedly down in the 'Undercity' Wasn't one city big enough?

I want to show off Porter. CHOOCHOO
 
BoredMan said:
That's your guess sure. We don't know that though.


What lead you to this conclusion? This is not accurate.

This is an AU(alternate universe) merged setting. I think your not adequately factoring this in. Your looking at canon storylines and assuming that X must match up for the setting to resemble canon as much as it does or that setting changes made are only for flavor rather than significant alterations that may necessitate that the player base respond appropriately.

This is like the conversation you had with DragonParadox earlier on the power scaling of the Yama Kings. They are Fallen level for the purposes of the Quest "the Fallen themselves" a setting change that effects everything else while still allowing a similar on the surface to canon setup.

You didn't think that change fit with your perceived model of the setting. Regardless it was implemented.

Even though we have no idea of the scope of changes made to the setting just that they have been made you still seem to hold the stance that significant changes can't be made while maintaining the appearance of canon.

Consider what else may appear the same at first but in actuality be very different under the hood. Story beats and characters from the books can still be utilized while changing ingredients. Your drawing too many conclusions from what we do have and it's leading you to believe that things have to be a certain way or it wouldn't make sense.

It's not reasonable to assume that something is being handled differently by default but we already have seen a significant change here. Unlike in canon we don't know that Peabody's working with Reds (something that DP pointed out) and an Outsider is ridding shotgun in his head. Unlike in canon he has had access and still does to Outsider investments.


What's stopping Peabody from getting an additional boost like Justine but for a Wizard? The fact that something happened once means it may be able to happen again you can't just dismiss the possibility once a precedent is set when doing risk assessment because it's convenient. You need to factor it in.

@BronzeTongue Broken link. Here's the conversation.
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You have a point about this, but the Yama Kings are a bit of a special case because they didn't exist in canon at all. They have fewer hard sticking points even if it seems very off to me for them to be that strong.

However, the base of the game is that things were as canon was in terms of observable details when things started. For that to make sense and rule we're applying now must also fit the scenario we started from. From a setting perspective the rules have to be all one way, they didn't change the moment Molly exalted.

So even if you don't subscribe to the position that canon events should still be the default if Molly/the exalted hadn't diverged the active events some things about the history of the setting still provide bounds to the sandbox.

Or they should, because deviations invite questions about how we ended up in even vaguely similar circumstances if the roots are that different.


uju32 said:
1) No we havent.

We saw canon Peabody for roughly five or ten minutes, in one scene. We have no idea what else he can actually do, besides having the skill, power and knowledge to safely summon and contain a mistwraith, a sufficiently deadly Outsider creature that it took Arthur Langtry and the entire Senior Council to contain it after it was released.

And we sure as hell have no idea what this Peabody can do, or what he can receive in magical support.
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An idiot can start a wildfire that requires the efforts of an entire state to contain with a cheap lighter. Peabody wasn't an idiot and what he did wasn't easy, but the difficulty of making a mess doesn't necessarily map to the difficulty of cleaning it up.

We don't have an endless array of details, but that doesn't mean there aren't bounds. In my view the specific details of canon need to make sense in the context of anything changed in the grey are; they're the fixed points of history.

Peabody should be making best possible use of all resources available to him as he sees it. He shouldn't suddenly remember he has the ability to craft super rituals that only an exalt can defeat targeted in exactly the right way that our existing powers can't deal with them. If he could do that then the resources should have been evident in canon.


uju32 said:
2) No he wasnt.
And the Dragon was an example of a situation where only the luck of the draw saved us
Harry somehow managed to roll 5 successes on 5 dice, and the QM was generous so the 2 successes left to the Dragon, who had rolled 7 successes, werent applied to detonate a small Vegas city block like they should have.

I repeat, I never want to be in that situation again
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I don't either, but you're making wildly excessive claims about our opposition that encourage runaway power scale escalation past what's reasonable. We have plenty of options for this personally and through allies.


uju32 said:
3) ONE
Citations as requested, both spells and magical items
TWO:
You have been making arguments based on the assumption that arcana and other constructs get to play by Exalted rules.
When they dont.

Exalts have Excellencies that explicitly arent capped.
Counterspelling dice for Night Folk is capped; it doesnt matter how high their Wits + Occult dice is, there's a relevant other stat that determines how many of that dice they get to apply, whether its Gnosis, Rage, WP or Glamor.

Night-Folk Counterspelling
Vampires, werewolves, faerie beings, and other paranormal entities have a chance to resist a mage's Arts… and the
mages can often resist Night-Folks' abilities too. Although such monsters don't use countermagick in the way that mages
do, their innate abilities give them a certain degree of protection.

Dice Pools
Night-Folk can use the equivalent of basic countermagick. Instead of Arete, such entities use their Wits + Occult as a dice pool. However, that dice pool cannot exceed the Gnosis or Rage (whichever is higher, for werecreatures), Willpower (vampires, spirits, wraiths, demons, hunters, and hedge wizards), Glamour (changelings and other fae), Mystic Shield
(Bygones), or True Faith (faithful humans) Trait of the Night-Folk character. Essentially, those Traits reflect the metaphysical capacity of the target character. If a werewolf, for instance, has a Wits + Occult dice pool of six but a Gnosis of 4 and a Rage of 3, then she cannot use more than four dice as countermagick.

If the targeted creature does not have a Wits + Occult dice pool, then the Storyteller may rule that the character cannot
resist True Magick – see Optional Limits, below. That said, a mage needs certain Spheres in order to harm a member
of the Night-Folk. As shown on the Common Magickal Effects chart (p. 508), Life Sphere magick alone cannot
affect vampires, werebeasts, ghosts, spirits, or the fae.

Difficulties and Limits
Whatever dice pool you employ, the difficulty for such rolls is either 7 or the mage's Arete, whichever is higher. This way,
a powerful werewolf or vampire can shrug off the Arts of an amateur mage, but a powerful wizard or Technocrat can
wipe the floor with supernatural foes.

On a related note, the Night-Folk cannot counter immediate-damage attacks like plasma bolts or Enlightened martial
arts, nor can they oppose indirect assaults like weakened floors, fire, typhoons, and so forth. The only way to counter
a mage's attack is to recognize it as a mystic assault. Thaumaturgical counterspells won't prevent a Virtual Adept from
using Enlightened hypertech to hack the vampire prince's bank account.
If your Wits + Occult is 10, and you are a spirit with Willpower 5, you have 5 dice of counterspelling, not 10.

And thats before you run into the ExWoD thing where some effects are calibrated based on the relative power of the two opposing characters.
A construct with no mojo is at a distinct disadvantage against an Arete 5 wizard with like Entropy/Prime 3.

TLDR
No construct's counterspells are going to be even vaguely in the same neighborhood as an even moderately optimized Exalt with an Excellency. Or a Demon of Tiffany's ancestry.
They are not in the same weight class, and trying to force one into that situation will lead to disaster.
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… Okay, so that is a thing. I think that introduces all sorts of problems in our context*, but it does exist. Not sure why they made a whole new system separate from rotes and injected them back in, but White Wolf has a reputation for a reason.

I never said that an Arcana could play by exalted rules, just that the exalt only barrier is harder to reach than you imply. For a vast majority of situations including the ones we involve ourselves in a very good sorcerer should be able to contend the effects in play. The buff games are a pain, but we can play them too.

The Wicked City and the direct attention of its ruling lord is not the new default.



* We can't really boost essence, so if these effects are common or reasonably achievable then every charm without an activation roll is trivial to defeat.
uju32 said:
6) No, thats not how it works for wizards.
In a setting where knowledge is literally power, being specced for information gathering gives you tons of weaponized and weaponizable information. Metaphysical grunt matters, but knowledge and experience matters far more.

This is like arguing that because Ivy is overwhelmingly information-specced, that she's a shitty combatant.
Instead of the single most powerful human magic user we have seen in the series so far.
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That is a bullshit comparison. She's has access to all kinds of lore and experience using it through the memories of her forebears. The outside self evidently can't just whisper some secrets in your ear and instantly level you up.

If they could just do this for free then they would spam it all the time before things even became a problem.

I'm working from the assumption that the canon backstory happened under these rules and would proceed as canon did without our actions so far. Peabody wouldn't be acting like this if they could use him like that.

There are costs and limits to their investments, trade offs we don't immediately see the rules for but which clearly limit the power of their agents.

In most contexts making the floor to countering the problem exalted grade weight should be a flag that you're exaggerating the situation.


uju32 said:
No she was not.
She was rocking a full power Nemesis infestation, and noone noticed a thing. Not Harry, not Lara, not Goodman Grey or anyone of the great and mighty she came into contact with.

And no, Harry did not stop because of her mortality. He ran away because he wasnt sure he could win, even on Demonreach.

Yes, Harry was exhausted after Battle Grounds.
But when a six foot nine, two hundred and fifty pound plus Winter-empowered supersoldier chooses to bail than risk a fight with a five foot nothing woman possessed by a spirit, that should tell you something about the spirit riding her.


It was very much a subtle thing that they gave him. Because noone noticed it until he began using it.
Vito apparently was walking around with Outsider Inside(TM) and noone saw a thing.
Not Duchess Malvora, not the White Queen, not Dresden, not Carlos.

Lash herself, the Shadow of a Fallen Angel, did not see or perceive anything until he actually used it.
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He stopped because he wasn't willing to hit her with magic or shoot her with his pistol. Leaving him with physically overpowering someone who did have some sort of juice going.

The point of contention I have with you here is that I think stealth like this is expensive and they have some sort of investment cap. You discard that cost and then take every special case as something which can be added on for free.

But we never see that taken to its logical conclusion. Vitto wasn't channeling that thing to subtly advance himself, that power level was his panic button.
 
@DragonParadox can we take some of our own supplies when visiting baby wizards? Because I think packing a bleach bottle and some potions for emergency refuel, regen and boosts might pay off if we're expecting trouble (and because I want to show off a "magic trick" of diving into a bottle)?
 
[X] Get to meet some more 'interesting folks' Ghouls and Vampires supposedly down in the 'Undercity' Wasn't one city big enough?
-[X] Molly will pack a bleach bottle, 5 doses of Healing Potion and 2 doses of Speed

Unless someone has better ideas for alchemical supplies.
 
[x] Get to meet some more 'interesting folks' Ghouls and Vampires supposedly down in the 'Undercity' Wasn't one city big enough?
 
[X] Get to meet some more 'interesting folks' Ghouls and Vampires supposedly down in the 'Undercity' Wasn't one city big enough?
-[X] Molly will pack a bleach bottle, 5 doses of Healing Potion and 2 doses of Speed
 
[X] Learn the basics of brewin' stuff, alchemy's the fancy name for it

Let's teach him something we know a lot about and something they can take with them in the future and maybe might even come back if they want to learn some more.
 
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