Something I do feel the need to say being an Eater of the Weak does not make Mages better does not make them any stronger both explicitly and implicitly both thematically and actually they have Investments that allow them to do magic that is normally outside the norm but it doesn't actually make them stronger Mages the real ultimate power and Mage and in Dresden Files is being someone with free will and having actual real magical knowledge that you can apply as a person no amount of Outsider investments can overcome that Gap without it becoming immediately apparent because you've essentially granted Outsiders access to your soul. Being a Nephandi just means he has backing it doesn't actually make him any stronger he might have Investments That serve that role but it's not the same thing.
Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)
- Thread starter DragonParadox
- Start date
- Crossover Fantasy
I havent said he's stronger due to being Nephandi; we dont even know how strong he is from canon, since Dresden is an unreliable witness with regards to things like that.
I have said that he's demonstrably competent, paranoid, and skilled enough to both manage a longterm subversion campaign and to infiltrate Outsiders into the heart of Council power.
Those are all canon feats.
Now add whatever his Nephandi backers have given him in this AU.
BoredMan
Maintaining the Agenda is our top priority
Remember they gave Vittorio protection against True Sight. They can give investments for stealth if they want to. Peabody is a high priority investment for the Outside due to Rashid (the Gate Keeper) and the like. The White Council is one of the factions that has members who would actually be able to contest Outsiders to a degree via banishing for example.
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BoredMan
Maintaining the Agenda is our top priority
I think everyone can at least agree that since the White Council has Red Court aligned traitors and the Rampires have been brought to our attention twice lately for their increasingly concerning actions that we'll need a poison defensive power soon as that is a main staple of Rampire combat.
I can't say if we need it right now but it should definitely go on the list of priority buys.
...Can someone explain the reasoning for why counter magic isn't a higher priority when seemingly everyone wants to tackle the White Council traitor plotline next turn? Hopefully we can pick it up at the end of the next Arc if people don't want it now but I'm not seeing the reasoning for it not being a greater point of concern.
@DragonParadox From before.
I can't say if we need it right now but it should definitely go on the list of priority buys.
...Can someone explain the reasoning for why counter magic isn't a higher priority when seemingly everyone wants to tackle the White Council traitor plotline next turn? Hopefully we can pick it up at the end of the next Arc if people don't want it now but I'm not seeing the reasoning for it not being a greater point of concern.
@DragonParadox From before.
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fictionfan
Please sir, may I have some Meows?
- Location
- Tempe, AZ
[X] Plan Minion Maxing
[X] Plan God Queens Favor
[X] Plan God Queens Favor
OctarineShrike
Avatar of Mandos
[x]Plan Basilisk
1) We aren't tackling Peabody before the next XP spending.
2) We have a shaping defense.
BoredMan
Maintaining the Agenda is our top priority
Hopefully people do keep it in mind when that time comes then. Definitely a priority buy.
Shaping defence didn't help with the dragon vampire Samuel when he tried nuking Las Vegas with an earthquake. Didn't help with the city wide spell during that same arc either.
Isn't the entire point of getting rid of Peabody to save the victims? Shaping defence only helps Molly.
I might be alone on this but to be honest I want to make up an excuse that seems possible to point the finger at Peabody and then let the white counsel handle it. Whether that be it took a long time to get Ariana's head to talk or whatever. As the response will really dictate whether or not the white council is worth actually working with or not. If they are so gruesomely incompetent that they cannot figure out how to deal with Peabody without us holding their fucking hand then we're better off starting our own organizations of Wizards we have ideas for how that might work and spiritual help on getting it to work but if the white Council isn't worth working with is better to do it on our own.
In the end the white council is a gerontocracy that exist to moderate the influence and power of wizards if they cannot deal with the traitor in their own Nets we're better off creating our own local alternative wether that would be expanding the order of cauldron or creating a new order and asking Dresden for help, because that means they're so stunningly incompetent they're not worth working with. Not to mention just the hilarious abuse of everyone that isn't an wizard level Talent people from the white Council laughing at recruits that are too weak people just completely ignoring the plight of lesser magic users and killing them if they overstep a law they might not know about just general shit like that if they're also incompetent it's better to discard them entirely.
In the end the white council is a gerontocracy that exist to moderate the influence and power of wizards if they cannot deal with the traitor in their own Nets we're better off creating our own local alternative wether that would be expanding the order of cauldron or creating a new order and asking Dresden for help, because that means they're so stunningly incompetent they're not worth working with. Not to mention just the hilarious abuse of everyone that isn't an wizard level Talent people from the white Council laughing at recruits that are too weak people just completely ignoring the plight of lesser magic users and killing them if they overstep a law they might not know about just general shit like that if they're also incompetent it's better to discard them entirely.
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BoredMan
Maintaining the Agenda is our top priority
Okay... Let's not use this as an opportunity to spread WC hate rhetoric. I don't like them at all either.
Remember they are fighting the Red Court if they get crippled and loose the war it's going to have major consequences for humanity. They also contest anti-human factions in general. We can't be everywhere and have an AP budget. I don't think that anyone actually wants us to try and fill the White Council's role right now if ever we are far too busy.
Just pointing finger at Peabody isn't going to work. They aren't going to trust us over someone they've known and fought alongside for years who doesn't have an evil aura like us. If we're correct it would say a lot of things about their competence that they do not in fact have their shit together at all and it took and outsider to bring to attention just how fucked they are.
That's why the suggestion to dump it on them has always been to give it to Ebenezer because we have WOG that he'd at least take it seriously.
Still a good portion of their guys are already subverted probably to a greater degree than canon due to Outsider involvement. How can you reasonably expect them to deal with that alone without major deaths when the resources they'd normally use are all suspect and Outsiders can grant anti-precog powers? Just dumping it on them and leaving it be seems irresponsible and kind of lazy. Though I suppose that depends on what the Crown tells us when we ask for traitor escape plans and the like.
Ivar
Dark Reaper
- Location
- Russia Moscow
There is a priority for beating up organizations. The WHITE Council is very low on that priority. We have too many other deserving targets for infernal atomic fire to waste Molly's wrath on them. Especially if we save their asses we can gently force them to become better.
And yes, we need a plan and active participation to repel the echelons of power from enemy agents. Unfortunately, it is not that simple.
And yes, we need a plan and active participation to repel the echelons of power from enemy agents. Unfortunately, it is not that simple.
BoredMan
Maintaining the Agenda is our top priority
Especially since the Red Court, which the White Council are at war with, are being sponsored in all but name by the Outsiders. That's probably how Peabody got body jacked by one. If the Reds win that war the Outsiders will have a much stronger faction to act as their agents.
To be honest I do want to just tell Dresden and let him appropriately Obfuscate his source. Right because either they take it seriously which they should because he's the warden commander of the apparently a significant portion of the American continent as well as the initiator of the red Court like Council War so when he says someone in the white council's upper echelons are a red Court spy they should at least deeply investigate that whether that investigation pays off or not is highly indicative of their competence whether or not they can actually handle Peabody is highly indicative of their competence because every other metric by which we can judge them they seem to be shit.
They are not a moral organization they are actively lying to the people they're supposed to be representing which is all human magic users but seemingly is just the wizard level talents they are actively murdering parts of their supposed constituency for not knowing the rules that are actually just completely made up and they can't be bothered to intercess or otherwise parlay with lesser talents to arrange either protection or knowledge trading or anything.
If they are also martially incompetent that they cannot handle a spy in War what benefit does allying with the white Council actually Grant what benefit of propping them up is actually granted. At that point if they are also incompetent on top of being kind of heinous if you think about them for more than 5 minutes why wouldn't we or move to either figure out a working deal with the Library of Congress and local initiatives for magic users that are actually useful and competent or very least protected by our own ageis then bothering with the white Council.
He's not body jacked that's not what a Nephandis is. He is a willing collaborator with the outsider agenda. Which is how he's actually sneaking around because if he was body jacked Angelic assistance would have been had because I'm pretty sure he's in the same position as you know body jacking the president or I guess the Secretary of Defense
Ok, let me make a stab in promoting my plan again. The main feature if Proxy Servant Protocol. It's a charm that drastically increases both our tactical abilities, and survivability of our allies. It allows Molly to substitute her dice pool for that of her ally for a scene. Someone shoots Harry point blank with a gun in a face while the charm is active and Molly in shintai is fighting the big boss? Harry shrugs it off, because Molly uses her soak dice to protect him. Olivia is pinned down and has to fistfight a rhampire? No problem, Molly's Dex+melee allow her to score a hit. Murphy has to fast talk Police Commissioner to not close Special Investiations? No problem, Molly's Charisma+Etiquette come through. Harry has to hold down escaping abyssal exaltation by rolling essence equivalent? Molly got his back with her E4 rating.
And as a bonus we get silent telepathic communication and ability to see through eyes of our allies. For a scene.
Oh, but wait, there's more. We have already bought, if not used, Emergency Minion Hologram. It's a charm that's basically TTC, but for minions - we summon holograms of our servants. Completely disposable holograms we don't have to worry about losing. And we can make them solid. Yes, it costs Essence, but - disposable minions. Who don't feat death. And who we can tag with Proxy Servant Protocol. So, now Molly essentially got X copies of herself, as far as rolls go. Well, not really, because that's multiple actions. Which is why we'll be getting By Rage Recast: Multiple Limbs next turn. Because that combines with Proxy Servant Protocol, and allows for unlimited actions per turn.
This is a great combo that really helps us.
And as a bonus we get silent telepathic communication and ability to see through eyes of our allies. For a scene.
Oh, but wait, there's more. We have already bought, if not used, Emergency Minion Hologram. It's a charm that's basically TTC, but for minions - we summon holograms of our servants. Completely disposable holograms we don't have to worry about losing. And we can make them solid. Yes, it costs Essence, but - disposable minions. Who don't feat death. And who we can tag with Proxy Servant Protocol. So, now Molly essentially got X copies of herself, as far as rolls go. Well, not really, because that's multiple actions. Which is why we'll be getting By Rage Recast: Multiple Limbs next turn. Because that combines with Proxy Servant Protocol, and allows for unlimited actions per turn.
This is a great combo that really helps us.
OctarineShrike
Avatar of Mandos
[x]Plan Basilisk
[x]Plan Courtly Ways
[x]Plan Courtly Ways
BoredMan
Maintaining the Agenda is our top priority
Not by any reasonable honest metric no.
Keep in mind that the White Council is made up of humans. Not hyper competent Exalted or something. There aren't actually methods designed for an organization to deal with subversion on this level and without killing their own members, which the WC can't do because they're in the middle of a War right now and going Warlock is also a concern.
They're already past the point of being able to deal with the situation without it being a shit show. It's that bad.
You remember why we aren't going to war with the White Court right? They keep even worse monsters like the Fomor out and the White Council is a pro human organization by virtue of fighting factions like the Red Court. Stop ignoring this. It's simply factual that if they die humanity looses a valuable asset and other pro-human factions will have to pick up the slack.
There goes our AP.
They have centuries worth of connections and favors that we don't have to pull from. As @Ivar said we're much better off saving our AP and trying instead to social them into our way of thinking by making them see value in our relationship politically and military wise. We can do that by helping them with the Red Court war, pulling their asses out of the fire they don't even realize they're in etc.
This would force them to take our concerns about their methods seriously as to dismiss us at that point would be to loose a proven valuable ally. In turn this would save us a fuck load of AP since we wouldn't have to try replacing a faction that's been establishing themselves for centuries.
If you check my quote I provided earlier you'd have noticed that Peabody's eyes were described as "dead" and "corpselike" with someone else looking out of his eyes.
If that's not bodyjacked then I dont know what is.
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BoredMan
Maintaining the Agenda is our top priority
Doesn't that mean we'd have to then use their smaller size pool for an entire scene? What if we need our dice? This sounds very bad.
No? The text of the charm is:
It works like that:
1) Molly spends 1 Essence and rolls charisma + leadership.
2) We select up to successes willing allies.
3) At any time during the scene, when they are making a scene, Molly can choose to use her own dice pool in place of theirs. So, instead of, say, Olivia rolling 3 dice (3 Dex + 0 melee) in a melee fight, she would roll 9 dice (4 dex + 5 melee), or 18 because Molly is running an excellency.
It's an additional action for Molly, so it's not like its free, but it's a great boost. Molly isn't swapping dice pools. She uses her own through her allies as proxies.
I'm not asking for super competence I don't expect them to just suddenly know Peabody is a traitor or to be able to handle him instantly or without issue but I expect them to be capable of doing with every major intelligence Organization for the last 400 fucking years has been capable of doing and handling spies that riddle their organization when they figure out who they are. Him being magical and them being magical doesn't matter I'm expecting a basic military competence from these people that have decided to go to war. Some of them actively having served in military before. I'm asking for actual just competence not super competence or something outside of human ability just the ability to handle their shit because Peabody is indeed their shit.
No we're not fighting the white court because of Lara Raith ostensibly the leader of the White Court is actively a true venatory preserving the functionality of reality. That is pretty much it if she was not actively directing White Court resources to preserving reality as we know it we would be fighting them we've killed multiple White Court members if she was just a regular white vampire and decided to do what the Reds did with the white Council on us we would be eating white Court vampires all the time.
Then where are these endless resources and favors when it comes to handling in-house business. That's the point if they cannot keep their fucking house clean they're not worth shit. If we have to hold their hand wall also giving them information on Traitors then they're not worth having as an ally they're actively detrimental to something actually effective being implemented because they consider themselves the foremost authority on Mortal magic users. On some of I just want to see something redeeming about the white Council as a whole everything we see of them is they have young Wizards that are actually good people and that is seemingly it and those people don't disappear if the white Council fucking disappears we actively offered them help in their war with the red Court and the first thing they do is undermine their Warden commander of the American continent by personally visiting us with the Merlin the Merlin who was actively using mind magic on himself by the way.
I don't know if that actually matters he doesn't look healthy and he looks like a corpse but he's also an active user of dark magic and mainlining the corruption of the outside so we will have to agree to disagree because if they've actually missed someone who is outright being puppeted in their faction that's so much worse than him just being a willing cooperator. He's also a secretary I don't know if you've seen people that sit at a desk all day riding memos and generally typing up forms but they never look particularly enthused to see anyone or be there even if they ostensibly seem to enjoy the job. That I will admit that only accounts for the dead eyes.
Edit: I definitely need to point us out I'm not saying that we should actively make enemies of the white Council just if they cannot competently handle their own organization then we should just distance ourselves and not help them and then actively poach younger talent for ourselves because their war with the record is never going to end if they cannot deal with moles if they cannot deal with their own internal fuck ups because we killed Ariana neither Dresden nor his grandfather are going to finish the war for them and if they're going to be distracted for the next lifetime fighting this war then we should try to build something in the meantime you know made by people who can use computers and aren't over a couple centuries years old and has the rules published and why they're that way rather than being a elitist shit head organization.
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BoredMan
Maintaining the Agenda is our top priority
@Yog thanks for the explanation regarding PSP.
To say that dealing with that would only require basic levels of military competence is to blatantly ignore the magic involved which is dishonest.
Can you provide an example of a human organization IRL that was subverted to this degree being able to root those people out without it being a shit show? I don't believe that you honestly expect them to perform well in dealing with this when things have already gotten this bad.
You cannot maintain the position that their incompetence resulted in the current crisis and then also expect them to deal with it in a way that would be seen favorably by the readers. The vibe I'm getting is that you'd rather they fail or receive casualties in victory when they can't afford it because you don't like them.
We have an AP budget. Nobody wants to waste it dealing with that right now. We decided to avoid them for now until after much worse factions are dealt with.
That's the logical, rational move.
I agree that the White Council haven't shown themselves to be too competent in this area but it's important to be fair about it.
It does matter. Again you're ignoring my points. They've already been subverted to an insane degree. Fixing that without casualties in the middle of an ongoing war would require extremely high levels of sudden competence with traitors or luck. A good portion of their people and assets are already under enemy control.
To say that dealing with that would only require basic levels of military competence is to blatantly ignore the magic involved which is dishonest.
Can you provide an example of a human organization IRL that was subverted to this degree being able to root those people out without it being a shit show? I don't believe that you honestly expect them to perform well in dealing with this when things have already gotten this bad.
You cannot maintain the position that their incompetence resulted in the current crisis and then also expect them to deal with it in a way that would be seen favorably by the readers. The vibe I'm getting is that you'd rather they fail or receive casualties in victory when they can't afford it because you don't like them.
As I said. The White Court keep much worse monsters out. If we started killing them they'd end up going to war with us which means we'd have to find a to deal with the other factions that would seek to take their place.
We have an AP budget. Nobody wants to waste it dealing with that right now. We decided to avoid them for now until after much worse factions are dealt with.
That's the logical, rational move.
You have been ignoring my post.
That's how Molly's Crown described it. It's more substantial than just someone who feels dead because they're stressed out and overworked. Remember the same Outsider that sees through his eyes also gave protection against True Sight. An effect that Wizards have which is supposed to be absolute. He could be possessed and they could've missed it trusting and leaning in their magic abilities too much and never wanting to believe that someone they've known for so long and fought alongside could be a traitor.
I agree that the White Council haven't shown themselves to be too competent in this area but it's important to be fair about it.
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I did An edit just before you posted you can read it or don't but I do believe I'm being fair because I do want them to be an organization worth having around, I want them to handle this their Pro Humanity nature is kind of in question because they don't actually do anything for humans Beyond vaguely protect them from Supernaturals not actually protect them vaguely do so Dresden is one of the most active people we see on that front and he says Wizards when we're at our best can force the monsters to look at us and that's not a good look when someone who is actively trying to fight a Titan says only when we're actually serving our function can we do that. It looks like the council has forgotten that it's accountable or very least supposed to look after minor magic users it looks like they have a highly nepotistic culture that ignores laws violations of family members or wizard level talents while actively condemning lesser talents they look like a council of murderers who belittle regular humans or humans with just a little bit of magical Talent it doesn't matter that their Pro Humanity as a whole not in this way because another Pro Humanity organization or organizations can rise in their shadow they look like an ancient apparatus that is actively extrajudicially killing people for not knowing rules they largely made up.
This is all separate to the point I'm trying to make if on top of how they look they cannot do what every organization that's ever had spies is meant to do then why should we help them why should we invest anymore in these people because they're wizards they don't fucking need our help they have magic of their own that they actively teach wrong the to their younger members while actively using it themselves to either transform themselves or use mind magic on themselves to enhance their ability to negotiate or otherwise so why should we help them any further if they can't or won't pursue spies in their own organization.
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It gave him protection just to not be discovered immediately, but that task gets harder the more obvious the buff is and the more scrutiny the target is under.
In canon the Outside gave buffs like that maybe twice; we see plenty of counter examples like Peabody himself where they don't deploy stuff like an immunity to magic or make him into a hell lord tier threat.
1) He isn't a peer to Iku and likely the will of Kakuri.
2) Harry who also doesn't have a shaping defense was your example of someone filling this gap earlier. I don't think that dedicated spirits would be blocked out of relevance nearly as often as you're implying.
5) Got a cite for that? Cause it looks to me like that's not the idea at all. The rules are that you have to give a justification for who you're going to counterspell, usually citing a relevant sphere of magic, then roll Arete to contest. Your skill with magic is already under consideration. It's pointedly not a rote so that counterspell gridlock doesn't consume the game.
In our specific context if you can abstractly buff either side of the counterspell equation it makes it trivial to defeat most of our charms. Exalts can't buff their essence rolls to a significant degree and they use it to pin the Arete level of their resistance. That's clearly not an intended function.
6) You overestimate his resources. He has hundreds of angle to cover of which we are a distant issue and he doesn't know we've defeated his primary defense.
BoredMan
Maintaining the Agenda is our top priority
What organizations? Provide some examples because you keep going on about them so clearly you must have some in mind. IRL military organizations do not in fact have to deal with goddamn mind control shenanigans and magic powered code words that make their agents act in certain ways. They do not have to deal with monsters from outside of reality while also in the middle of an ongoing war.
You are actively portraying the situation in a dishonest light to push an agenda. I think your too biased and focused on the mistreatment of minor talents and Warlock issue and so refuse to acknowledge the bigger picture. I am telling you this right now, you're going to struggle to find support if you truly believe that we should be trying to replace the White Council wholesale. This would require us to drop our aspirations and take up a massive AP hog to solve a problem that we could've prevented and fixed via a less AP heavy method.
Edit: @Degorium Remember the White Council is a GLOBAL organization. The Library of Congress are not.
This is what I'm talking about. I do believe now that you'd rather they struggle here so we have an excuse not to associate with them. If we help them with the Red war which we WILL because everyone in thread wants the Red Court dead it will end.
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BoredMan
Maintaining the Agenda is our top priority
True.
This. Isn't. Canon.
The girl we dealt with in the Las Vegas Arc (can't remember her name, Sarah?) was given an item of power (the Cauldron thing she summoned Outsiders with and whatever she buffed Samuel with) and a buff allowing her to curse an entire goddamn city and open the Gate to the Outside. He doesn't have to be something as bad as a 'Hell Lord tier threat' to be given buffs worth a damn.
Why are you assuming that his buffs won't amount to anything substantial?
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