Attempting to Shatter the Skies: An Ace Combat Plan Quest

Honestly I'll just put bog standard seawalls in as a normal project.
Oh, great! Well, that goes well with Project JOYEUSE or any of a number of other projects that rely on fragment destruction.

Because there's a distinct chance that we'll miss something that splashes down hard enough to create tidal waves that affect our member states, even if the magnitude of the waves is likely to be mitigated by the sheer distance from us to them.
 
BIRDS OF A FEATHER FLOCK TOGETHER!!!

[X] Plan: To the Skies!
-[X] Project ALBATROSS V3
-[X] Scope: Monumental
-[X] [Antarc] Extend Ulysses mitigation efforts to Aurelia
-[X] [Chaldea] Establish world-class research institutions
-[X] [Joint] Expand GDI
-[X] [Joint] Secure International Trade

[X] Plan: In True Ace Combat Tradition.
-[X] Project DAWN SHEPERD
-[X] Scope: Huge
-[X] [Antarc] Extend Ulysses mitigation efforts to Aurelia
-[X] [Chaldea] Establish world-class research institutions
-[X] [Joint] Expand GDI
-[X] [Joint] Secure International Trade
 
[X] Plan: With The Aid Of My SECRET WEAPON!
-[X] Project JOYEUSE
-[X] Scope: Huge
--[X] Core Moderate laser tower project plus supplementary laser launch, reflector satellite, and beam upgrade projects
-[X] [Antarc] Extend Ulysses mitigation efforts to Aurelia
-[X] [Chaldea] Establish world-class research institutions
-[X] [Joint] Expand GDI
 
[X] Plan: In True Ace Combat Tradition.

Yeah, this is close enough to what I was thinking. I'm unsure about adding the world-class research institutes as a fourth mandate and whether it benefits the project enough to be worth the extra effort, but it's only a Huge project instead of Monumental so it's probably alright? And lots of people seem to want it with the other plans.
 
[X] Plan: In True Ace Combat Tradition.
-[X] Project DAWN SHEPERD
-[X] Scope: Huge
-[X] [Antarc] Extend Ulysses mitigation efforts to Aurelia
-[X] [Chaldea] Establish world-class research institutions
-[X] [Joint] Expand GDI
-[X] [Joint] Secure International Trade


[X] Plan: In True Ace Combat Tradition.

Yeah, this is close enough to what I was thinking. I'm unsure about adding the world-class research institutes as a fourth mandate and whether it benefits the project enough to be worth the extra effort, but it's only a Huge project instead of Monumental so it's probably alright? And lots of people seem to want it with the other plans.
We will have to do R&D for the planes anyways. So we would basically already be doing it to an extent no matter what.
 
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[X] Plan: With The Aid Of My SECRET WEAPON!
-[X] Project JOYEUSE
-[X] Scope: Huge
--[X] Core Moderate laser tower project plus supplementary laser launch, reflector satellite, and beam upgrade projects
-[X] [Antarc] Extend Ulysses mitigation efforts to Aurelia
-[X] [Chaldea] Establish world-class research institutions
-[X] [Joint] Expand GDI

I really like JOYEUSE and the bullet hell it promises for future ace combat protagonists.
 
We will have to do R&D for the planes anyways. So we would basically already be doing it to an extent no matter what.
Oh no, we will absolutely have to do some R&D for the planes, and every project proposed too really. It's just that part of making DAWN SHEPHERD into a trio of interceptors was to reduce the demands required of each individual plane and make the whole design less complex and technologically intensive to develop, and so should have a much better chance of being successful with only our current scientist roster from the Confederation, Celestial Dominion, and any others we get to join up.

Compare that to something like ALBATROSS which, while undeniably a very cool idea as a fuckhuge combination atmospheric and space weapons platform, likely has a much greater need for us to bait every single scientist and subject matter expert we can get our grubby hands on into coming down to join us if we want to have a chance of it completing on time.
 
I really like JOYEUSE and the bullet hell it promises for future ace combat protagonists.
Peak bullet hell will require the development of the APS-based adjustable reflector satellite design, which is a problem for post-Ulysses Nod, but then, there's a fair chance our Ace Combat game doesn't take place until the 2010s anyway, so we've got time to work on it.

Oh no, we will absolutely have to do some R&D for the planes, and every project proposed too really. It's just that part of making DAWN SHEPHERD into a trio of interceptors was to reduce the demands required of each individual plane and make the whole design less complex and technologically intensive to develop, and so should have a much better chance of being successful with only our current scientist roster from the Confederation, Celestial Dominion, and any others we get to join up.
Quite frankly, I am really hoping for more than three suborbital fighters for DAWN SHEPHERD, if only because with no more than three superplanes it's going to be hard to keep up continuous coverage of all the asteroid-shooting missions we'll need to undertake during Ulysses Week.

The problem of recovering these planes after they re-enter the atmosphere and land (somewhere), and then getting them prepped for the next launch, is... nontrivial, to put it mildly.

Compare that to something like ALBATROSS which, while undeniably a very cool idea as a fuckhuge combination atmospheric and space weapons platform, likely has a much greater need for us to bait every single scientist and subject matter expert we can get our grubby hands on into coming down to join us if we want to have a chance of it completing on time.
The thing is, I'd rather have the problem of needing to spend extra progress ON TOP OF completing a 'Huge' project in order to make our research institutions truly 'world class,' rather than trying to make the success of our 'world class' research institutions a mandatory part of a Monumental project. Consider the two following scenarios:

1) We fail to complete our 10000-point ALBATROSS superweapon, but we have created a world-class research institution.
2) We complete our 7500-point suborbital fighter superweapon, but having research institutions that are "good, but not great."

I think the first situation will be seen as much more of a failure of our overall mandate than the second, so taking the more expensive mandate in hopes of completing the mandate as a side-effect would be putting the cart before the horse.

Also, if we are specifically trying ALBATROSS as our superweapon, we're lined up with the Oseans, who are already working on more or less the same thing (the Arkbird). The good news is that they might collaborate with us. The bad news is that they'll be trying to hire the same scientists as we are hiring, and they're richer than we are.
 
Quite frankly, I am really hoping for more than three suborbital fighters for DAWN SHEPHERD
Yeah I would prefer more than three too.


Also, if we are specifically trying ALBATROSS as our superweapon, we're lined up with the Oseans, who are already working on more or less the same thing (the Arkbird).
They actually don't start seriously working on it until post impact I'm pretty sure.

And we could also just work with them.

But yes I would rather build it post impact that try to pre impact.
 
I said seriously working on it for a reason.
I am fairly sure, given the timeline, that they did not go from "no serious effort to finish this thing" to "we have just launched a 500-meter mega-spaceplane unlike any other spacecraft the world has ever known" in the space of a single year.

It seems far more plausible that the Arkbird was originally intended (or at least hoped) to get spaceborne before Ulysses arrived, and simply wasn't ready in time.
 
The Arkbird was originally designed as a ballistic missile interceptor for use in the Cold War to defend against Yuktobanian ICBMs, the design documents exist right now.
 
[X] Plan: Global Defense
-[X] Project STONE SPLITTER
-[X] Scope: Monumental
-[X] [Antarc] Extend Ulysses mitigation efforts to Aurelia
-[X] [Chaldea] Establish world-class research institutions
-[X] [Joint] Expand GDI
-[X] [Joint] Secure International Trade

[X] Plan: With The Aid Of My SECRET WEAPON!

Peace and Prosperity to the world with giant lasers! In that spirit, I'll be approval voting for Joyeuse too.

That said, I'm still convinced that as the GDI, it's Monumental or bust for us. Gotta live up to the name of Global Defense Initiative after all.
 
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Quite frankly, I am really hoping for more than three suborbital fighters for DAWN SHEPHERD, if only because with no more than three superplanes it's going to be hard to keep up continuous coverage of all the asteroid-shooting missions we'll need to undertake during Ulysses Week.

The problem of recovering these planes after they re-enter the atmosphere and land (somewhere), and then getting them prepped for the next launch, is... nontrivial, to put it mildly.
Well, how many threatening do we think we're going to be getting in our area, almost directly on the opposite side of the world as the projected impact zone? If we were based in Usea I imagine we'd need to deal with a hell of a lot greater quantity of fragments threatening us, but down here on the opposite side of Antarctica our interceptor systems should be much less stressed by potential impactors.

I feel like three planes where we can do a rotation of something like 24 hours ready/engaging followed by 48 hours rest and maintenance would allow for a enough down time to keep everything going, especially as that schedule doesn't have to hold indefinitely, just for 2 week of high tempo operations until the impacts stop, at which point we can increase the ratio of downtime to flight hours even further.

Even if we do increase the number of interceptors though, I personally wouldn't support more than a very small squadron. There's still going to be a fairly high minimum level of complexity caused by making it a plane that can hop out of the atmosphere and come back in again while maintaining control, just significantly less than a similar plane that would have had to protect the same area for the full two weeks solo that's not able to stand down for maintenance because it would put all asteroid protection offline.

At some point building additional DAWN SHEPHERD interceptors would be increasing the total scale of the project more than the extra airframes will provide defense, because presumably we're going to look into how many fragments across the protected area each of the three planes is likely going to have to intercept per "shift" and then design them to be capable of that, rather than the other way around where we design a plane and hope that it's enough to cover everything with just three of them. Producing enough airframes to fly 3 or 4 of them per shift isn't a very effective use of our resources if just 1 of them could cover all but the worst outlier situations, and 2 would cover those.

The thing is, I'd rather have the problem of needing to spend extra progress ON TOP OF completing a 'Huge' project in order to make our research institutions truly 'world class,' rather than trying to make the success of our 'world class' research institutions a mandatory part of a Monumental project. Consider the two following scenarios:

1) We fail to complete our 10000-point ALBATROSS superweapon, but we have created a world-class research institution.
2) We complete our 7500-point suborbital fighter superweapon, but having research institutions that are "good, but not great."

I think the first situation will be seen as much more of a failure of our overall mandate than the second, so taking the more expensive mandate in hopes of completing the mandate as a side-effect would be putting the cart before the horse.
I think this is just us having a violent agreement? I'm saying that DAWN SHEPHERD is more likely than ALBATROSS to succeed without setting up the world class facilities, especially if the resources that would be put into them was instead used to progress DAWN SHEPHERD. E.g. scenario 2, the one you're saying is less of a failure of the overall mandate.
 
Really Quite Modest Subregional Defense Initiative just doesn't have the same ring to it.
If the globe wants us to defend all of it, then the globe can damn well fund our efforts to do so. If we're stuck with a budgetary and resource base of "literally Antarctica," we're gonna have to walk before we can run. :p

Besides, Joyeuse is absolutely upgradable into a truly globe-spanning superweapon threat; it just needs a little more mad science than we can feasibly do in the next three years. Growth mindset!
 
Well, how many threatening do we think we're going to be getting in our area, almost directly on the opposite side of the world as the projected impact zone? If we were based in Usea I imagine we'd need to deal with a hell of a lot greater quantity of fragments threatening us, but down here on the opposite side of Antarctica our interceptor systems should be much less stressed by potential impactors.
The problem is that if the interceptors are only intercepting rocks headed right for us, they are effectively useless against the bulk of the damage Ulysses is likely to cause to us.

Remember, the main threat we face is asteroids hitting the ocean, potentially thousands of kilometers away or even on the other side of the world, and causing tsunamis that mess up our coastline.

Which means we need to identify the rocks that will do that, and somehow engage them. We're going to be needing to either launch them "up" to hit asteroids that are still on orbital tracks but likely to decay and enter the atmosphere and hit the planet a few days before they actually crash down, or we're going to be launching them 'round the world' to engage asteroids that are in the process of falling into distant oceans where they would set off tidal waves that threaten us indirectly.

Joyeuse is chosen as something that plausibly has exo-atmospheric engagement capability; it can shoot asteroids that are still orbiting and on their way down, even if it is realistically incapable of meaningfully reducing the overall mass of Ulysses as a whole before it breaks up.

I feel like three planes where we can do a rotation of something like 24 hours ready/engaging followed by 48 hours rest and maintenance would allow for a enough down time to keep everything going, especially as that schedule doesn't have to hold indefinitely, just for 2 week of high tempo operations until the impacts stop, at which point we can increase the ratio of downtime to flight hours even further.
How do you keep a single interceptor fighter operating continuously for twenty-four hours?

I think we're probably going to need several of these things, a squadron or more, just to make sure there's always one available and ready to launch as we identify new asteroid threats that need blowing up before they become a tsunami problem for us.

Also, for aircraft design like this, the R&D tends to be a huge up-front cost, and then the cost of actually building each plane to the design specifications is lower. I strongly suspect that if we have a 7500-point "build three superplanes" project, the breakdown will look like:

3000 points "design the superplane and its component technologies"
3000 points "build the test and production facilities for the bespoke hardware the superplane uses"
500 points "actually build a prototype that even begins to approach the capabilities of the intended superplane"
500 points "build the first superplane"
250 points "build another superplane" x2

Those are approximations, but that's about what I'd expect. At which point it costs us relatively little to turn out a squadron's worth of the things.

At some point building additional DAWN SHEPHERD interceptors would be increasing the total scale of the project more than the extra airframes will provide defense, because presumably we're going to look into how many fragments across the protected area each of the three planes is likely going to have to intercept per "shift" and then design them to be capable of that, rather than the other way around where we design a plane and hope that it's enough to cover everything with just three of them. Producing enough airframes to fly 3 or 4 of them per shift isn't a very effective use of our resources if just 1 of them could cover all but the worst outlier situations, and 2 would cover those.
Given the sheer number of fragments we're expecting, having only one plane available and on duty to hit any target anywhere in the world for 24 hours at a stretch sounds... problematic.

Honestly, an Arkbird-like ALBATROSS project might be more practical in that regard, just because it's going to be up in space the whole time Ulysses is coming down on the planet, rather than us needing to fly individual fighters across intercontinental distances to shoot down individual fragments that are spread out widely over the entire planet and its orbital space, then recover them and send them up again.

It's the downtime per plane that's the potential killer with DAWN SHEPHERD, and mass production of interceptors that's the solution, if you ask me.
 
The problem is that if the interceptors are only intercepting rocks headed right for us, they are effectively useless against the bulk of the damage Ulysses is likely to cause to us.

Remember, the main threat we face is asteroids hitting the ocean, potentially thousands of kilometers away or even on the other side of the world, and causing tsunamis that mess up our coastline.

Which means we need to identify the rocks that will do that, and somehow engage them. We're going to be needing to either launch them "up" to hit asteroids that are still on orbital tracks but likely to decay and enter the atmosphere and hit the planet a few days before they actually crash down, or we're going to be launching them 'round the world' to engage asteroids that are in the process of falling into distant oceans where they would set off tidal waves that threaten us indirectly.

Joyeuse is chosen as something that plausibly has exo-atmospheric engagement capability; it can shoot asteroids that are still orbiting and on their way down, even if it is realistically incapable of meaningfully reducing the overall mass of Ulysses as a whole before it breaks up.
How fortunate then that DAWN SHEPHERD also has an explicit line in the concept about how it can travel beyond the atmosphere if needed, allowing it to also launch attacks on asteroid fragments before they re-enter, and if they really need to the whole nuclear ramjet part means that sending them "around the world" is entirely within their range (if a suborbital hop doesn't do the same thing faster while also maybe getting a shot on it while exo-atmospheric).

How do you keep a single interceptor fighter operating continuously for twenty-four hours?

I think we're probably going to need several of these things, a squadron or more, just to make sure there's always one available and ready to launch as we identify new asteroid threats that need blowing up before they become a tsunami problem for us.

Also, for aircraft design like this, the R&D tends to be a huge up-front cost, and then the cost of actually building each plane to the design specifications is lower. I strongly suspect that if we have a 7500-point "build three superplanes" project, the breakdown will look like:

3000 points "design the superplane and its component technologies"
3000 points "build the test and production facilities for the bespoke hardware the superplane uses"
500 points "actually build a prototype that even begins to approach the capabilities of the intended superplane"
500 points "build the first superplane"
250 points "build another superplane" x2

Those are approximations, but that's about what I'd expect. At which point it costs us relatively little to turn out a squadron's worth of the things.
Because we would build them to be able to? That's kind of like asking: "How are you going to intercept all the asteroid fragments we're going to over the two weeks with just a single laser emitter and some reflector satellites?" The answer is that we figured out how we would need to build them in order to pull that off, then did it.

From your criticism and cost assumptions sounds like you've got this idea in your mind that it's going to be just something like a souped up nuclear F15 or MiG 25 or something flying around to shoot the fragments down. I don't expect these to be anything like conventional interceptors, because they're not being designed for anything approaching a conventional interception mission.

Given the sheer number of fragments we're expecting, having only one plane available and on duty to hit any target anywhere in the world for 24 hours at a stretch sounds... problematic.

Honestly, an Arkbird-like ALBATROSS project might be more practical in that regard, just because it's going to be up in space the whole time Ulysses is coming down on the planet, rather than us needing to fly individual fighters across intercontinental distances to shoot down individual fragments that are spread out widely over the entire planet and its orbital space, then recover them and send them up again.

It's the downtime per plane that's the potential killer with DAWN SHEPHERD, and mass production of interceptors that's the solution, if you ask me.
Except that we don't need to hit any target anywhere in the world over a 24 hour stretch, only any asteroid fragment that is 1) landing in a place that would actually threaten us with a tsunami over on the other side of Antarctica, and 2) actually of large enough size to cause a threatening tsunami to hit us from the distance it impacts. That's a much easier task to accomplish on our end, everything else isn't a threat we need to send a missile at.

Down time per plane doesn't matter for interception capability as long as we still have enough interceptors to provide total coverage. To do that with three interceptors and whatever shift schedule our scientists decide on means we'll just design an interceptor than can handle that shift, which I don't think is any more of an ask then designing a single laser tower that can intercept every fragment needed over the two weeks by itself without any downtime.
 
[X] Plan: Global Defense

[X] Plan: With The Aid Of My SECRET WEAPON!

I'd prefer to go for broke with making Durandal, but I suppose the other laser is acceptable.
 
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