Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

uju32 · Jul 12, 2024

DragonParadox said:
Knowing about the island's purpose and knowing how it works are two different things. Yes they knew enough to warn Harry against tapping the ley-line, but that is because they know ley-lines are dangerous.

Not in this instance.

If you reread some of those quotes, Rashid for example, knew where the wellspring of the leyline originated.
And Butcher makes it clear that the Senior Council didnt just know what it was for, they know how it works in detail; they wouldnt have invested the effort to stop Kemmler getting back to the island if they didnt.

Priscellie: Who was the warden of Demonreach before Harry?
Jim: Lemme think, I know who it is, and who the guy before that was, but the guy before /that/ was Kemmler so...

Priscellie: Oh god. *laughs*
Jim: Yeah, I mean, half of that entire thing was just the white council trying to keep Kemmler from getting back to the island and opening it up. Which is why they had him being hounded by the wardens all through the wild west and so on. It was to stop him from being able to set things up even more. Kemmler is sort of in the Dresden Files universe he's sort of the Dresden Files version of WWI where it was actually the biggest most epic most incredible conflict the world has ever known but we're all used to seeing WWII because they got some of it on film but we didn't get nearly as much of the great war on film but when you actually go and study it and study all the troop numbers and resources involved WWI was really the great war and WWII was kind of a follow-up. A softer echo in many ways.

Priscellie: In terms of how long someone is a warden, I'm sure it varies from case to case but how long does wardenship typically last?
Jim: It depends on how quickly it gets you killed.

Priscellie: Is that the only way out?
Jim: I'd say it's not the only way out. You can definitely walk away from it or be dragged away from it or driven away from it. And then if somebody else comes along and challenges Demonreach then it's their island if your influence isn't there anymore. By the time Harry got there nobody had been there in a good long while because among the people who are in the know on the council it would be suicide to go try and do that. If one of the senior council guys got it all the other senior council guys would be like "yep he's the bad guy he's definitely corrupt and serving evil". And then Dresden walked into it and it was just such a stupid move they all kind of looked at him and went "I think he was he was being dumb? Do you think he was being dumb? Yeah it looks dumb. It looks like he was just being stupid, oh my god, we do need the firepower", you know, like that. The poor council, they find themselves so strapped for resources in so many ways that they keep having to tolerate Harry Dresden.

Priscellie: Did his (Kemmler) wardenship end when he was killed after WWII?
Jim: It ended during one of the times they killed him. Kemmler got killed a bunch of times. He was one of those fun villains who just kept getting back up again just kept Napoleoning his way back into being a problem for the white council.

Priscellie: Pop goes the weasel for necromancers.
Jim: Exactly.

Priscellie: Joshua Salley asks "are we likely to meet the actual Merlin and Arthur as it seems with the situation we may need some backup".
Jim: That seems... are they still copyrighted or are they public domain now?

Priscellie: They're definitely public domain.
Jim: Okay. Maybe so then. Public domain, I won't have to pay anybody to use them, perhaps so.

Priscellie: They're legends.
Jim: True, true. I think they're public domain then.

Which makes sense, given that the White Council has seemingly provided all the Wardens since Merlin died/went away. Wizards write important shit down because memory is fallible.

And no, it makes no sense that Rashid would warn him about tapping leylines.
Wizards are trained to use ley-lines when necessary. Dresden used one to power Zombie T-rex Sue's summoning in Dead Beat IIRC; in Changes he uses another to power the spell he uses to wipe out the Rampire bloodslaves with gravity magic.

The issue wasnt leylines. It was THIS leyline, and the source of its power.

DragonParadox said:
Also people, especially wizards do not write their deepest darkest secrets down into journals.

Yes they do actually. Thats the whole point of journals.
In part for working out things you cant necessarily share with confidants at that point in time, in part because human memory isnt perfect when you want to remember important stuff,and in part retaining and transmitting information across generations.

Thats what Kemmler's entire bibliography was about in the series: the first three books were for dissemination and multiple copies were spread across Europe, enough to take the Wardens more than two decades to .
The last one had one handwritten copy, and kept his deepest insights into necromancy.

The lights shot restlessly over to the other side of the lab, swirling through the steps on my stair ladder in a glowing helix. "You're talking about The Word of Kemmler," Bob said. The glowing cloud stretched, motes now spiraling up and down the stairs simultaneously. "I'm working on my Vegas act. Lookit, I'm DNA."
"Would you stop goofing around? Can you remember anything at all about Kemmler?"
Bob's voice quavered, the motes becoming a vague cloud again. "I can."
"Then tell me what you know."
"Is that a command?"
I blinked. "Do I have to make it one?"
"You don't want to command me to remember, Harry."
"Why not?" I demanded.
The cloud of lights drifted in vague loops around the lab. "Because knowledge is what I am. Losing my knowledge of what I knew of Kemmler took away a… a big piece of my existence. Like if someone had cut off your arm. What's left of what I know of Kemmler is close to the missing pieces."
I thought I started to understand him. "It hurts."
The lights swirled uncertainly. "It also hurts. It's more than that."
"If it hurts," I said, "I'll stop, and you can forget it again when we're done talking."
"But- " Bob said.
"It's a command, Bob. Tell me."
Bob shuddered.
It was a bizarre sight. The cloud of lights shivered for a second, as if in a trembling breath of wind, and then abruptly just shifted, flickering to one side as quickly as if I had been looking at it with one eye closed and suddenly switched to the other.
"Kemmler," Bob said. "Right." The lights came to rest on the other end of the table in the shape of a perfect sphere. "What do you want to know, wizard?"
I watched the lights warily, but nothing seemed all that wrong. Other than the fact that Bob was suddenly calm. And geometric. "Tell me what The Word of Kemmler is."
The lights pulsed scarlet. "Knowledge. Truth. Power."
"Uh," I said, "a little more specific?"
"The master wrote down his teachings, wizard, so that those who came after him could learn from him. Could learn about the true power of magic."
"You mean," I said, "so that they could learn about necromancy."
Bob's voice took on the edge of a sneer. "What you call magic is nothing but a mound of parlor tricks, beside the power to master life and death itself."
"That's an opinion, I guess," I said.

The skull let out a slow sigh of relief. "Thank you, Harry."
"Don't mention it," I said. "Literally."
"Right," he said.
"Okay. Let's see," I said. "Can you still remember general information about Kemmler?"
"Nothing you couldn't find in other places. But general knowledge I learned when Justin was with the Wardens, yes."
"All right, then. You-that is, that other you-said that Kemmler had written down his teachings, when I asked him what The Word of Kemmler was. So I figure it's a book."
"Maybe," Bob said. "Council records stated that Kemmler had written three books; The Blood of Kemmler, The Mind of Kemmler, and The Heart of Kemmler."
"He published them?"
"Self- published," Bob said. "He started spreading them around Europe."
"Resulting in what?"
"Way too many penny-ante sorcerers getting their hands on some real necromancy."
I nodded. "What happened?"
"The Wardens put on their own epic production of Fahrenheit 451," Bob said. "They spent about twenty years finding and destroying copies. They think they accounted for all of them."
I whistled. "So if The Word of Kemmler is a fourth manuscript?"
"That could be bad," Bob said.
"Why?"
"Because some of Kemmler's disciples escaped the White Council's dragnet," Bob said. "They're still running around. If they get a new round of necro-at-home lessons to expand their talents, they could use it to do fairly horrible things."

We even see Morgan's final personal journal entry in the microfiction thats literally called "Journal" where he goes into detail about stress-testing Dresden, his fears about Dresden being a Destroyer, and even mentions Nemesis.

Microfiction #2: Journal

by Jim Butcher

You lose track of time, as the years go by. The things that seem significant, that rise above the rest, become your measure of its passage. And the longer you live, the more significant the event has to be to catch your notice.

It makes for infrequent milestones.

I haven't kept this journal since my seventies. I only started it because I thought it would make a good impression on Anastasia, who I presume will be reading this entry.

I will spare you the schoolboy platitudes, my teacher. My old friend. Though you have never said it, I have always known that you have always known my heart.

Now I return to these papers, and read the last few pages, and realize that the lessons that keeping this journal would have taught me might have prevented this from being my last entry.

My final confession, really.

There's little time, and far too much to say. I am losing blood and my thoughts wander when I must be concise.

Despite my promise to Margaret, I failed to protect her son.

I tracked him and his father until the time of Malcolm's death. To this day, I'm not sure who killed him. I suppose it's possible that Malcolm's death was natural, but given this child's ongoing misfortune it seems clear to me that he has been marked with an Adversary from the moment of his birth.

Malcolm died while I was on mission elsewhere. I arrived less than ten hours after the child went into the foster care system, and someone made him vanish. Magically, physically, bureaucratically. There was no trace of him, and I searched for years.

That bastard Justin DuMorne got to him before I could.

From then on, we could not be sure that the child was not molded to be a creature of Nemesis.

The child apparently murdered Justin in something very like a duel, and I am unsure if I am more frightened by the prospect that it was a deception to simulate Justin's death — or if it wasn't.

Given what is at stake, it would have been better to remove the child from play — but the Blackstaff couldn't let his daughter's son be neutralized. So I tracked him. I hounded him. I pushed him, constantly, in an attempt to draw out any controls that may have been emplaced — or any corruption of black magic that he might have been concealing. Even now, I cannot be sure that he is not the monster we all fear, in the process of being born.

But the enemy has invaded the Senior Council itself. And, regardless of his true allegiance, Dresden is not ensnared in the web of conflicts between them, and has both the inclination and the strength to defy them, at least for a time. Until I am certain where to lay the blame for LaFortier's death, I will seek his assistance. Given who he is, he will have little choice but to give it. If nothing else, the pressure might show me his true colors.

Perhaps I have been too hard on him. Perhaps I really have become paranoid and mad. Perhaps I have wronged a good man. But there is too much at stake to take that chance. The thought of allowing a Destroyer to be birthed among us when I could have stopped it is too heavy to bear.
To those who come after me and read this… well. History will be my judge.

I bore the fear of multitudes in silence and fought the darkness as best I knew how. I can say that without hesitation.

But I wish I'd done better by that child.

I have the honor to be Respectfully Yours,

Donald Morgan
Warden

And this makes it clear that journal writing is something thats encouraged as part of the standard "How to train your wizard" curriculum.

The Archive has an entire team of agents, who, among other things, run down books and grimoires and destroy them precisely because wizards and similar mortal magic workers are prone to writing down their thoughts.
Because human memory isnt perfect.

Yog said:
This is why I specified aerial photos and satellite imagery. Maps are likely affected, as they are man made, a perception filter / compulsion combo would make the cartographers ignore the island. But the images should still be there, and satellite imagery is new enough that, unless Merlin visited modern times, would be an unforseen danger to the island's stealth. It's worth a try at least.

Satellite imagery is new.Views from the air are not.

The Little Folk fly. So do a lot of other supernaturals, or are just shapeshifters.
Familiars and familiar spirits have often been associated with creatures that can fly, and we know that at least some magic users can and do take the form of birds and other flying creatures.

I would expect Merlin to have covered that particular avenue.
But thats just my opinion.

BronzeTongue said:
So when we go set this up are we going to just send Harry to make friends or shout at Demonreach from the lake? An infernal exalt is the last person to be showing up on that island, at least until they're elder essence and packing a suite of McGuffins to counter its powers.

Shagnasty was on Demonreach during Turn Coat with no harm.

And before that, the Denarians used Demonreach as their local base during Small Favor, with, as of the climax of the book, 6x Denarians, a small army of constructs and mortal minions, AND a massive Circle imprisoning the Archive.
Alfred didnt do anything.

That suggests that when Demonreach doesnt have an active Warden, it doesnt just lash out at most temporary visitors.
With Rashid as a possible exception.

DragonParadox said:
Answers Given, Answers Sought
8th of February 2007 A.D.

COMMENTARY
Interesting strategy by the Reds. That kind of coordinated pressure campaign risks exposing a significant portion of their influence network in North America, to little apparent gain. Im guessing thats its either the first step to a larger operation in the Midwest, or the initial steps for a multis-stage distraction from something else.

Might be worth looking into next turn.

Molly really needs to learn Divination 1.
So she can honestly say she knows Divination, and use it as a cover for a bunch of things.

Reasonable question.
Still, if the spirit has been on the flipside of Chicago for almost a century and half without starting shit, its unlikely to start shit now. Not impossible, but unlikely.

Besides, a priest will appreciate the whole presumption of innocence thing.

DragonParadox said:
Rolls
Molly Perception Empathy vs Forthil INT Subterfuge (He can keep secrets with INT due to a merit from his legal training... try to keep secrets at least)
Molly to hide her source vs Forthil to sense something's odd
Making your case (He is not contesting that, but he does have questions )

Gonna note that Father Forthill's favored dicepool is 8 dice, which is WELL above the average trained mortal dicepool of 4-5.
Dude is pretty stacked. And it gives some idea of just how important this duty position is that the Church has him here as a parish priest instead of a senior supervisory position or roving troubleshooter somewhere.

Especially when you remember that his peer Father Vincent, the dude who was murdered at the beginning of Death Masks and then impersonated by Sariel-Cassius, was working in the Vatican as a senior spook.

DragonParadox said:
It might, though one thing to note is that the easiest way to get something into a magical prison is to choose a entity that belongs in magical prison. It's not like the prison works on the basis of some kind of modern legal code where a set up would be inherently enough to release a prisoner.

Going to point out that Demonreach did not trigger on Nemesis!Maeve during Cold Days.
Despite her standing on the island at the time and being involved in attacking the island.
Nor did it trigger on the other Fae attackers at the time.

It appears to take an affirmative decision by the serving Warden to imprison most classes of supernatural entity.
Whatever is up with Embermane's Cup Grace, it isnt imprisoned.
Its on the island, but it isnt formally imprisoned with the rest of the inmates.

And given that we know that there were Wardens between Kemmler's tenure and Dresden's tenure, the fact that they didnt use the Cup Grace to summon and imprison Embermane suggests they didnt see the need either.
Not unless the rules of Demonreach are radically different from canon.

DragonParadox · Jul 12, 2024

uju32 said:
Not in this instance.

If you reread some of those quotes, Rashid for example, knew where the wellspring of the leyline originated.
And Butcher makes it clear that the Senior Council didnt just know what it was for, they know how it works in detail; they wouldnt have invested the effort to stop Kemmler getting back to the island if they didnt.

Priscellie: Who was the warden of Demonreach before Harry?
Jim: Lemme think, I know who it is, and who the guy before that was, but the guy before /that/ was Kemmler so...

Priscellie: Oh god. *laughs*
Jim: Yeah, I mean, half of that entire thing was just the white council trying to keep Kemmler from getting back to the island and opening it up. Which is why they had him being hounded by the wardens all through the wild west and so on. It was to stop him from being able to set things up even more. Kemmler is sort of in the Dresden Files universe he's sort of the Dresden Files version of WWI where it was actually the biggest most epic most incredible conflict the world has ever known but we're all used to seeing WWII because they got some of it on film but we didn't get nearly as much of the great war on film but when you actually go and study it and study all the troop numbers and resources involved WWI was really the great war and WWII was kind of a follow-up. A softer echo in many ways.

Priscellie: In terms of how long someone is a warden, I'm sure it varies from case to case but how long does wardenship typically last?
Jim: It depends on how quickly it gets you killed.

Priscellie: Is that the only way out?
Jim: I'd say it's not the only way out. You can definitely walk away from it or be dragged away from it or driven away from it. And then if somebody else comes along and challenges Demonreach then it's their island if your influence isn't there anymore. By the time Harry got there nobody had been there in a good long while because among the people who are in the know on the council it would be suicide to go try and do that. If one of the senior council guys got it all the other senior council guys would be like "yep he's the bad guy he's definitely corrupt and serving evil". And then Dresden walked into it and it was just such a stupid move they all kind of looked at him and went "I think he was he was being dumb? Do you think he was being dumb? Yeah it looks dumb. It looks like he was just being stupid, oh my god, we do need the firepower", you know, like that. The poor council, they find themselves so strapped for resources in so many ways that they keep having to tolerate Harry Dresden.

Priscellie: Did his (Kemmler) wardenship end when he was killed after WWII?
Jim: It ended during one of the times they killed him. Kemmler got killed a bunch of times. He was one of those fun villains who just kept getting back up again just kept Napoleoning his way back into being a problem for the white council.

Priscellie: Pop goes the weasel for necromancers.
Jim: Exactly.

Priscellie: Joshua Salley asks "are we likely to meet the actual Merlin and Arthur as it seems with the situation we may need some backup".
Jim: That seems... are they still copyrighted or are they public domain now?

Priscellie: They're definitely public domain.
Jim: Okay. Maybe so then. Public domain, I won't have to pay anybody to use them, perhaps so.

Priscellie: They're legends.
Jim: True, true. I think they're public domain then.

Which makes sense, given that the White Council has seemingly provided all the Wardens since Merlin died/went away. Wizards write important shit down because memory is fallible.

And no, it makes no sense that Rashid would warn him about tapping leylines.
Wizards are trained to use ley-lines when necessary. Dresden used one to power Zombie T-rex Sue's summoning in Dead Beat IIRC; in Changes he uses another to power the spell he uses to wipe out the Rampire bloodslaves with gravity magic.

The issue wasnt leylines. It was THIS leyline, and the source of its power.

As far as I can tell from what quote the Council knows Demonreach is large and important, they might have a partial list of prisoners even which would be reason enough to want to avoid Kemmler keeping it, but that does not necessarily involves knowing how it was made. To put this another way, the people at the local national guard barracks know where the nearest nuclear power plant is and they know that very bad things can happen if someone with ill intent gets to control the facility, but neither of those things require that they be nucear physicists. Nor do you need to be a nuclear physicist to be able to follow a powerline to the facility

uju32 · Jul 12, 2024

BronzeTongue said:
Also, while we're still collecting information IC OOC we know more of the rules. I'm concerned that coming to the place with the intent of releasing someone might taint Harry's application to be Warden since it seems like the spirit of the island was actually inspecting him during that ritual. He didn't win that job by beating it, he got it by being strong enough to be useful and presumably not raising any red flags by virtue of not knowing anything that would trip them.

The Cup Grace is an object, not a person. Part of a living organism, but non-sapient in and of itself.
And given as we know that there were at least two Wardens of Demonreach after Kemmler's tenure, the fact that Embermane remains unsummoned and un-imprisoned is on its face evidence they didnt think it was necessary.

They didnt care enough to return it, but they didnt think it's owner posed a threat to the rest of the world.

As for Dresden? I dont really see the issue.
Its not like he's trying to break into the containment facilities. And as for qualifications, he's still a mortal Starborn wizard. I get the impression there arent many of them running around uncommitted; he's the only one we know of besides maybe Elaine.

I wouldnt worry about it.

BoredMan said:
If you want my personal opinion, I wouldn't give them anything too substantial until the traitor issue is fully dealt with. The White Council has Red Court aligned people in it along with Outsider interference of unknown proportions. They should be much more effective at combating the Reds if those issues are sorted without major casualties.

^^^
Indirect aid is still aid.
And fumigating the Council of its intelligence leaks is likely to have a significant effect on the course of the War.

Yog · Jul 12, 2024

uju32 said:
Satellite imagery is new.Views from the air are not.

The Little Folk fly. So do a lot of other supernaturals, or are just shapeshifters.
Familiars and familiar spirits have often been associated with creatures that can fly, and we know that at least some magic users can and do take the form of birds and other flying creatures.

I would expect Merlin to have covered that particular avenue.
But thats just my opinion.

It's not "from the air" that is new. It's "a mechanical device with no mind behind it recording and keeping the record of an image" and "automatically generated maps" that are new. Satellites don't have minds. Aerial surveys are done in a half-automatic mode - the pilot isn't pulling the trigger on the camera manually. The magic might be preventing anyone from acknowledging the island in the images, or the images themselves exist, but the images themselves should still be there. Google Earth should already exist.

BoredMan · Jul 12, 2024

Yog said:
The magic might be preventing anyone from acknowledging the island in the images, or the images themselves exist, but the images themselves should still be there. Google Earth should already exist.

I think your forgetting that Mikaboshi's airport is only sometimes viewable by satellite.
Unless that effect stems purely from his familiarity with technology, Demonreach probably has way stronger stuff in place than whatever means Mika is using to facilitate that. It doesn't even have to be purposeful it could just be a side effect of trying to take pictures of a place containing a multitude of eldritch abominations, gods and whatever else.

It's worth trying but seeing as there's already a precedent I wouldn't hold my breath.

Yog · Jul 12, 2024

BoredMan said:
I think your forgetting that Mikaboshi's airport is only sometimes viewable by satellite.
Unless that effect stems purely from his familiarity with technology, Demonreach probably has way stronger stuff in place than whatever means Mika is using to facilitate that. It doesn't even have to be purposeful it could just be a side effect of trying to take pictures of a place containing a multitude of eldritch abominations, gods and whatever else.

It's worth trying but seeing as there's already a precedent I wouldn't hold my breath.

I don't doubt that magic can be used to prevent an island from being photoed by satellites. I doubt that Demonreach has such defenses, because it was created before such things were a thing.

uju32 · Jul 12, 2024

DragonParadox said:
As far as I can tell from what quote the Council knows Demonreach is large and important, they might have a partial list of prisoners even which would be reason enough to want to avoid Kemmler keeping it, but that does not necessarily involves knowing how it was made. To put this another way, the people at the local national guard barracks know where the nearest nuclear power plant is and they know that very bad things can happen if someone with ill intent gets to control the facility, but neither of those things require that they be nucear physicists. Nor do you need to be a nuclear physicist to be able to follow a powerline to the facility

See this part of the quote:

And then Dresden walked into it and it was just such a stupid move they all kind of looked at him and went "I think he was he was being dumb? Do you think he was being dumb? Yeah it looks dumb. It looks like he was just being stupid, oh my god, we do need the firepower", you know, like that. The poor council, they find themselves so strapped for resources in so many ways that they keep having to tolerate Harry Dresden.

Butcher is straight up saying its a White Council resource they can expect to wield in time of crisis, not just a prison.

Remember. The Merlin used to lead the White Council, and was one of its founders.
His name is literally used as the title of the current leader. And he built Demonreach to require a wizard as Warden in order to actually operate.

This isnt National Guardsmen worrying about the nearest nuclear reactor.
Its more along the lines of a conclave of nuclear physicists considering the work of a distinguished colleague which they are responsible for operating and taking care of.

Furthermore, there are ~6000 inmates in Demonreach.
We dont know over how much time they were all stuffed into the place; given the existence of time travel in the series, I dont want to guess.(We see a dramatization of the Merlin building Demonreach in Cold Days. It took a VERY long time)

A sudden breeze passed through the cavern in a long, enormous sigh. And the vines stirred and twisted the skull toward the nearest wall.
Bob's eyelights brightened to brilliance and suddenly cast double cones of light on the wall. There was a scratchy sound that seemed to emanate from the skull itself, a blur of a sound like an old film sound track warming up, and then the old spotlight-sweeping 20th Century Fox logo appeared on the wall, along with the pompous trumpet-led symphony theme that often accompanied it.
"A movie?" I asked. "You can play movies?"
"And music! And TV! Butters gave me the Internet, baby! Now hush and pay attention."
The opening logo bit faded to black and then familiar blue lettering appeared. It read: A LONG TIME AGO, PRETTY MUCH RIGHT HERE . . .
"Okay, come on," I said. "You're going to buy me a lawsuit, Bob."
"Hush, Harry. Or you'll go to the special hell."
I blinked at that, confused. I'm not supposed to be the guy who doesn't get the reference joke, dammit.
On the wall, the black gave way to a star field that panned down to a blue-and-green planet. Earth. Then it zoomed in and in and in until I recognized the outline of Lake Michigan and the other Great Lakes, and came closer still until it got to the outline of the island itself.
Bob is invaluable, but man, he loves his wisecracks and his drama.
The image sank down until it showed a familiar landing point, though it had no ruined town and no Whatsup Dock and no row of wooden piles in the water. It was just a little beach of dirt and sand and heavy, brooding forest growth.
Then a ribbon of light maybe eight feet long split the air vertically. The light broadened until it was maybe three feet wide, and then a figure appeared through it. I recognized the signs—someone had opened a Way, a passage from the Nevernever to the island. The figure emerged, made a gesture with one hand, and the Way closed behind it.
It was a man, fairly tall, fairly lean. He wore ragged clothing in many shades of grey. His grey cloak had a deep hood on it, and it shadowed his features, except for the tip of his nose and a short grey-white beard covering a rather pointy chin.
(Letters appeared at the bottom of the screen. They read: MERLIN.)
"Wait? You saw Merlin?" I asked Bob.
"Nah," Bob said, "but I cast Alec Guinness. Looks good, right?"
I sighed. "Could you get to the point, please?"
"Oh, come on," Bob said. "I wrote in this romance triangle subplot and cast Jenna Jameson and Carrie Fisher. There's a love scene you're gonna really—"
"Bob!"
"Okay, okay. Fine. Sheesh."
The movie shifted into fast motion. The grey-clad figure became a blur. It walked about waving its arms, and directed oceans of energy here and there, settling them all in and around the substance of the island itself.
"Wait. Did Demonreach tell you how he did that?"
"No," Bob said, annoyed. "It's called artistic license, Harry."
"Okay, I get it. Merlin built the island. However he did it. Get to the part with the problem."
Bob sighed.
Merlin walked into the woods in comically fast motion and vanished. Then time passed. The sun streaked by hundreds and then thousands of times, the shadows of the island bowing and twisting, the trees rising, growing, growing old, and dying. At the bottom of the screen, words appeared that read, A LOT OF TIME PASSES.
"Thank you for dumbing that down for me," I said.
"De nada."
Then the camera slowed. Again, Merlin appeared. Again, oceans of power rose up and settled into the island. Then Merlin vanished, and more years passed. Maybe a minute later, he appeared again—looking exactly the same, I might add—and repeated the cycle.
"Hold on," I said. "He did it again? Twice?"
"Ah," Bob said, as a fourth cycle began on the screen. "Sort of. See, Harry, this is one of those things that you're going to have trouble grabbing onto."
"Go slow and try me."
"Merlin didn't build the prison five times," Bob said. "He built it once. In five different times. All at the same time."
I felt my brows knit. "Uh. He was in the same place, doing the same thing, in five different times at once?"
"Exactly."
"That does not make any sense," I said.
"Look, a mortal jail is built in three dimensions, right? Merlin built this one in four, and probably in several more, though you can't really tell whether or not he built it in a given dimension until you go there and measure it, and the act of measuring it will change it, but the point is: This is really advanced stuff."
I sighed. "Yeah. I'm getting that. But what's wrong?"
The shot zoomed out, rising up to give a top-down view of the island, which became a blurry shape. A familiar five-pointed star blazed itself across the surface of the lake, its lines so long that the pentagon shape at its center enfolded the island entirely. Within the pentagon, a second pentacle formed, like the first one drawn in the manner to preserve and protect. The camera tightened in, and I saw that the second pentagon enfolded the entire hilltop where the cottage and ruined tower lay. The camera tightened more, and I saw more pentacles drawn, this time not flat but at dozens of intersecting angles, their centers encircling the dozen tunnels full of evil beings beneath the island.
"These," Bob said, "represent the original enchantments on the island. This is vastly simplified, of course, but the basic star-and-circle architecture is the same as the work you do, Harry."
Then the design blurred and increased, growing denser and more delicate and more brilliant in power, until something twinged in my brain and I had to look away from the diagram.
"Yeah, sorry about that, boss. This is meant to represent the entanglement of the spells being delivered at different times."
"No wonder it was so complicated," I muttered.
"And it's even worse than this," Bob said. "I'm filtering it down for you. And here's the problem."
I forced myself to look back at the projection, and saw those millions upon millions of spells resonating with one another, spreading and interlocking into an impenetrable barrier. It was, I thought, somehow like watching crystals grow. The spells powering the actual construction of it hadn't been, alone, too much stronger than some of the work I had done—but when they'd been interconnected with their counterparts across time, they'd fed upon one another, created a perfect resonance of energy that had become something infinitely greater than the sum of its parts.

But given that Ethniu the Titan needed multiple armies to beat her down, and doesnt even qualify for maximum security, there's very little chance that the Warden(s) didnt need help to chuck most of the inmates into the place.
And there's little chance of people doing so if they dont understand and trust that the thing will work as described.

It might not be replicable, whether due to materials or location or knowledge or even sheer power.
But I personally find it suspicious that this attack only happened after they got Cristos on the Senior Council, either as a collaborator or as a dupe.

Yog said:
It's not "from the air" that is new. It's "a mechanical device with no mind behind it recording and keeping the record of an image" and "automatically generated maps" that are new. Satellites don't have minds. Aerial surveys are done in a half-automatic mode - the pilot isn't pulling the trigger on the camera manually. The magic might be preventing anyone from acknowledging the island in the images, or the images themselves exist, but the images themselves should still be there. Google Earth should already exist.

*points at Victor Sells, Ancient Mai and Klaus the Toymaker*

Wizards have been making programmed autonomous constructs with no minds since forever; Dresden got attacked by scorpion drones in the very first book Storm Front. Hell, the concept of golems dates back further; to at least early Judaism, and to the ushabti in Pharoanic Egypt.

The concept of such a construct would not have been new to him.
It certainly wouldnt have been new to the wizard community in general, where magic constructs have long been a thing.
I really would not expect this to be something the Merlin didnt think of.

I could be wrong, of course.

DragonParadox · Jul 12, 2024

uju32 said:
See this part of the quote:

Butcher is straight up saying its a White Council resource they can expect to wield in time of crisis, not just a prison.

Remember. The Merlin used to lead the White Council, and was one of its founders.
His name is literally used as the title of the current leader. And he built Demonreach to require a wizard as Warden in order to actually operate.

This isnt National Guardsmen worrying about the nearest nuclear reactor.
Its more along the lines of a conclave of nuclear physicists considering the work of a distinguished colleague which they are responsible for operating and taking care of.

Furthermore, there are ~6000 inmates in Demonreach.
We dont know over how much time they were all stuffed into the place; given the existence of time travel in the series, I dont want to guess.(We see a dramatization of the Merlin building Demonreach in Cold Days. It took a VERY long time)

A sudden breeze passed through the cavern in a long, enormous sigh. And the vines stirred and twisted the skull toward the nearest wall.
Bob's eyelights brightened to brilliance and suddenly cast double cones of light on the wall. There was a scratchy sound that seemed to emanate from the skull itself, a blur of a sound like an old film sound track warming up, and then the old spotlight-sweeping 20th Century Fox logo appeared on the wall, along with the pompous trumpet-led symphony theme that often accompanied it.
"A movie?" I asked. "You can play movies?"
"And music! And TV! Butters gave me the Internet, baby! Now hush and pay attention."
The opening logo bit faded to black and then familiar blue lettering appeared. It read: A LONG TIME AGO, PRETTY MUCH RIGHT HERE . . .
"Okay, come on," I said. "You're going to buy me a lawsuit, Bob."
"Hush, Harry. Or you'll go to the special hell."
I blinked at that, confused. I'm not supposed to be the guy who doesn't get the reference joke, dammit.
On the wall, the black gave way to a star field that panned down to a blue-and-green planet. Earth. Then it zoomed in and in and in until I recognized the outline of Lake Michigan and the other Great Lakes, and came closer still until it got to the outline of the island itself.
Bob is invaluable, but man, he loves his wisecracks and his drama.
The image sank down until it showed a familiar landing point, though it had no ruined town and no Whatsup Dock and no row of wooden piles in the water. It was just a little beach of dirt and sand and heavy, brooding forest growth.
Then a ribbon of light maybe eight feet long split the air vertically. The light broadened until it was maybe three feet wide, and then a figure appeared through it. I recognized the signs—someone had opened a Way, a passage from the Nevernever to the island. The figure emerged, made a gesture with one hand, and the Way closed behind it.
It was a man, fairly tall, fairly lean. He wore ragged clothing in many shades of grey. His grey cloak had a deep hood on it, and it shadowed his features, except for the tip of his nose and a short grey-white beard covering a rather pointy chin.
(Letters appeared at the bottom of the screen. They read: MERLIN.)
"Wait? You saw Merlin?" I asked Bob.
"Nah," Bob said, "but I cast Alec Guinness. Looks good, right?"
I sighed. "Could you get to the point, please?"
"Oh, come on," Bob said. "I wrote in this romance triangle subplot and cast Jenna Jameson and Carrie Fisher. There's a love scene you're gonna really—"
"Bob!"
"Okay, okay. Fine. Sheesh."
The movie shifted into fast motion. The grey-clad figure became a blur. It walked about waving its arms, and directed oceans of energy here and there, settling them all in and around the substance of the island itself.
"Wait. Did Demonreach tell you how he did that?"
"No," Bob said, annoyed. "It's called artistic license, Harry."
"Okay, I get it. Merlin built the island. However he did it. Get to the part with the problem."
Bob sighed.
Merlin walked into the woods in comically fast motion and vanished. Then time passed. The sun streaked by hundreds and then thousands of times, the shadows of the island bowing and twisting, the trees rising, growing, growing old, and dying. At the bottom of the screen, words appeared that read, A LOT OF TIME PASSES.
"Thank you for dumbing that down for me," I said.
"De nada."
Then the camera slowed. Again, Merlin appeared. Again, oceans of power rose up and settled into the island. Then Merlin vanished, and more years passed. Maybe a minute later, he appeared again—looking exactly the same, I might add—and repeated the cycle.
"Hold on," I said. "He did it again? Twice?"
"Ah," Bob said, as a fourth cycle began on the screen. "Sort of. See, Harry, this is one of those things that you're going to have trouble grabbing onto."
"Go slow and try me."
"Merlin didn't build the prison five times," Bob said. "He built it once. In five different times. All at the same time."
I felt my brows knit. "Uh. He was in the same place, doing the same thing, in five different times at once?"
"Exactly."
"That does not make any sense," I said.
"Look, a mortal jail is built in three dimensions, right? Merlin built this one in four, and probably in several more, though you can't really tell whether or not he built it in a given dimension until you go there and measure it, and the act of measuring it will change it, but the point is: This is really advanced stuff."
I sighed. "Yeah. I'm getting that. But what's wrong?"
The shot zoomed out, rising up to give a top-down view of the island, which became a blurry shape. A familiar five-pointed star blazed itself across the surface of the lake, its lines so long that the pentagon shape at its center enfolded the island entirely. Within the pentagon, a second pentacle formed, like the first one drawn in the manner to preserve and protect. The camera tightened in, and I saw that the second pentagon enfolded the entire hilltop where the cottage and ruined tower lay. The camera tightened more, and I saw more pentacles drawn, this time not flat but at dozens of intersecting angles, their centers encircling the dozen tunnels full of evil beings beneath the island.
"These," Bob said, "represent the original enchantments on the island. This is vastly simplified, of course, but the basic star-and-circle architecture is the same as the work you do, Harry."
Then the design blurred and increased, growing denser and more delicate and more brilliant in power, until something twinged in my brain and I had to look away from the diagram.
"Yeah, sorry about that, boss. This is meant to represent the entanglement of the spells being delivered at different times."
"No wonder it was so complicated," I muttered.
"And it's even worse than this," Bob said. "I'm filtering it down for you. And here's the problem."
I forced myself to look back at the projection, and saw those millions upon millions of spells resonating with one another, spreading and interlocking into an impenetrable barrier. It was, I thought, somehow like watching crystals grow. The spells powering the actual construction of it hadn't been, alone, too much stronger than some of the work I had done—but when they'd been interconnected with their counterparts across time, they'd fed upon one another, created a perfect resonance of energy that had become something infinitely greater than the sum of its parts.

But given that Ethniu the Titan needed multiple armies to beat her down, and doesnt even qualify for maximum security, there's very little chance that the Warden(s) didnt need help to chuck most of the inmates into the place.
And there's little chance of people doing so if they dont understand and trust that the thing will work as described.

It might not be replicable, whether due to materials or location or knowledge or even sheer power.
But I personally find it suspicious that this attack only happened after they got Cristos on the Senior Council, either as a collaborator or as a dupe.

*points at Victor Sells, Ancient Mai and Klaus the Toymaker*

Wizards have been making programmed autonomous constructs with no minds since forever; Dresden got attacked by scorpion drones in the very first book Storm Front. Hell, the concept of golems dates back further; to at least early Judaism, and to the ushabti in Pharoanic Egypt.

The concept of such a construct would not have been new to him.
It certainly wouldnt have been new to the wizard community in general, where magic constructs have long been a thing.
I really would not expect this to be something the Merlin didnt think of.

I could be wrong, of course.

They know the place has firepower, not quite the same thing as knowing how to operate it... I think the issue is I agree with you on the Cristos thing but with the way I have it set up if several people within the White Council knew the details and therefore the Black Council knew the details the world would be in deep shit already. They know what it's for and they know it has firepower, they do not know the details of how it works and definitely not the launch codes.

That is as much as I can say without spoilers.

Fouredged Sword · Jul 12, 2024

[X] As confident as you have to be, this is the right thing to do. Embermane did not deserve to be mutilated in the plots of the Fallen
- [X] and it's not like the situation is forever stable ether. That spirit is going to try to fix itself eventually and better that we do it now on our terms with minimal collateral and a hope of diffusing whatever fallen plan exists than later in an uncontrolled manner and potentially causing horrible problems.

Yog · Jul 12, 2024

uju32 said:
*points at Victor Sells, Ancient Mai and Klaus the Toymaker*

Wizards have been making programmed autonomous constructs with no minds since forever; Dresden got attacked by scorpion drones in the very first book Storm Front. Hell, the concept of golems dates back further; to at least early Judaism, and to the ushabti in Pharoanic Egypt.

The concept of such a construct would not have been new to him.
It certainly wouldnt have been new to the wizard community in general, where magic constructs have long been a thing.
I really would not expect this to be something the Merlin didnt think of.

I could be wrong, of course.

Automated constructs performing autonomous functions by magic almost certainly have some sort of a mind. This wouldn't, I think. We'll have to see, I feel.

uju32 · Jul 12, 2024

DragonParadox said:
They know the place has firepower, not quite the same thing as knowing how to operate it... I think the issue is I agree with you on the Cristos thing but with the way I have it set up if several people within the White Council knew the details and therefore the Black Council knew the details the world would be in deep shit already. They know what it's for and they know it has firepower, they do not know the details of how it works and definitely not the launch codes.

That is as much as I can say without spoilers.

Of course, this isnt canon. You are free to change whatever you choose in the pursuit of your own story.

===
The safeguard on Demonreach is Demonreach itself. The island's genius loci picks the Warden.
And Im assuming that there's something about Demonreach's specific location that led the Merlin to build it here, instead of literally anywhere else on the planet. Its hardly the only island.

I dont think they would have the launch codes; thats an Alfred to Warden affair. And I wont be surprised if there's things that Alfred only tells the Warden on a need to know basis.

But I dont think the Council can operate the way they do without a good measure of knowledge about how the island works.
Even if the Merlin didnt leave notes, one of his successors would have. And a thousand plus years of watching the thing work would allow an organization of magical PhDs to put together most of the picture.

Also, wizards are nosy bastards.
They certainly arent going to be quite so trusting as to simply assume that nothing can go wrong with Supernatural Supermax. Especially since you built it with a failsafe that is described as having continental floor cracking power.

The wizards who lived in North America, for one, would have Opinions about that sort of thing.
So would a lot of non-wizard heavy hitters for that matter.
Which is why I think the Merlin would have left notes, to stop them going digging.

Yes, theres a Black Council infiltration. But its more plausible to have the Black Council infiltrators not to have had the clearance to access the most important records yet. Than it is for the White Council to have basically ignored the workings of Demonreach and taken it on faith for the last thousand years. IMO.

PS
Odin tells us that pretty much everyone on the Grey Council knows about Demonreach:

Thomas reached into a pocket and produced a bunch of plastic cards. He fanned them out and showed them to me. "What about these?"
"Those aren't a nickel," I said.
"Oh, for goodness' sake." Molly sighed. She reached into a pocket and produced what looked like a little old lady's coin purse. Then she flicked a nickel toward me.
I caught it. "Thanks. You're promoted to lackey."
She rolled her eyes. "Hail, Ming."
I slid the nickel across the bar to Vadderung. "There."
He nodded. "Talk to me."
"Right," I said. "Um. It's about time."
"No," he said, "it's about your island."
I eyed him warily. "What do you mean?"
"What I mean," he said, "is that I know about your island. I know where it came from. I know what it does. I know what's beneath it."
"Uh," I said. "Oh."
"I'm aware of how important it is that the island be well managed. Most of the people who came to your party in Mexico are."
By which he meant the Grey Council. Vadderung was a part of it. It was a group of folks, mostly wizards of the White Council, who had joined together because it seemed like the White Council was getting close to meltdown, and they wanted to save it. But since the rats were in the walls, the only way to do it was covertly, working in cells. I wasn't sure who, exactly, was a member, except for my grandfather and Vadderung. He had come along with the rest of the mostly anonymous Grey Council when I'd gone to take my daughter back from the Red Court, and seemed to fit right in.
Of course, I was pretty sure he wasn't a wizard. I was pretty sure he was a lot more than that.
So I broke it down for him, speaking very quietly. I told him about the attack being aimed at the island from across time. Hard lines appeared in his face as I did.
"Idiots," he breathed. "Even if they could defeat the banefire . . ."
"Wait," I said. "Banefire?"
"The fail-safe," Vadderung said. "The fire the island showed you."
"Right. It'll kill everything held there rather than let them escape, right?"
"It is the only way," Vadderung said. "If anyone managed to set free the things in the Well . . ."
"Seems like it would be bad," I said.
"Not bad," Vadderung said. "The end."
"Oh," I said. "Good to know. The island didn't mention that part."
"The island cannot accept it as a possibility," Vadderung said absently.
"It should probably put its big-girl pants on, then," I said. "The way I understand it, it might already be too late. I mean, for all I know, someone cast this spell a hundred years ago. Or a hundred years from now."
Vadderung waved a hand. "Nonsense. There are laws that govern the progression of time in relation to space, like everything else."
"Meaning what?"
"Meaning that the echoes caused by the temporal event are proportionately greater than the span of time that was bridged," he said. "Had the attack been launched from a century ago, or hence, the echoes of it would have begun far, far in advance of the event—centuries ago. These echoes have appeared only within the past few days. I would guess, roughly, that the attack must originate only hours from the actual, real-time occurrence."
"Which is tomorrow," I said. "So it's happening sometime today or sometime tomorrow."
"Most likely not tomorrow," Vadderung said. "Altering one's past is more than mildly difficult."
"The paradox thing?" I asked. "Like, if I go back and kill my grandfather, how was I ever born to go back and kill my grandfather?"
"Paradox is an overrated threat. There is . . . a quality similar to inertia at work. Once an event has occurred, there is an extremely strong tendency for that event to occur. The larger, more significant, or more energetic the event, the more it tends to remain as it originally happened, despite any interference."
I frowned. "There's . . . a law of the conservation of history?"
Vadderung grinned. "I've never heard it phrased quite like that, but it's accurate enough. In any event, overcoming that inertia requires tremendous energy, will, and a measure of simple luck. If one wishes to alter the course of history, it's a far simpler matter to attempt to shape the future."
I grunted. "So if I go back in time and kill my grandfather, what happens?"
"He beats you senseless, I suspect," Vadderung said, his gaze direct.
Oh, man. Vadderung knew about Ebenezar. Which meant that either he was higher in the old man's circle of trust than I was, or he had access to an astoundingly scary pool of information.
"You know what I mean," I said. "Paradox? Universe goes poof?"
"If it works like that, I've never seen it, as evidenced by the fact that . . ." He spread his hands. "Here it is. I suspect a different form of apocalypse happens."
I frowned. "Like what?"
"A twinned universe," Vadderung said. "A new parallel reality, identical except for that event. One in which you never existed, and one in which you failed to kill your grandfather."
I pursed my lips. "That . . . doesn't really end well for me in either case."
"An excellent reason not to meddle in the natural course of time, wouldn't you say? Meddling with time is an irrationally, outrageously, catastrophically dangerous and costly business. I encourage you to avoid it at all costs."
"You and the White Council," I said. "So it's going to happen sometime today or tonight."
Vadderung nodded. "And nearby."
"Why?"
"Because the energy requirements are astronomical," he said. "Bridging a temporal gap of any length is something utterly beyond the reach of any mortal practitioner acting alone. Doing such a thing and then trying to project the spell over a distance as well? The difficulty of it would be prohibitive. And do not forget how much water surrounds the island, which will tend to mitigate any energy sent toward it—that's one reason the Well was built there."
I nodded. All of that hung together, based upon everything I knew of magic. People always assume that magic is a free ride—but it isn't. You can't pull energy from nowhere, and there are laws that govern how it behaves.
"So this . . . time bomb. It has to come from how close?" I asked.
"The shores of the lake, I suspect," Vadderung said. "The island itself would be the ideal location, but I doubt that it will cooperate with any such effort."
"Not hardly," I agreed. "And you can't just scribble a chalk circle and pull this spell out of your hat. It's got to have an energy source. A big one."
"Precisely," Vadderung said.
"And those things tend to stand out."
He smiled. "They do."
"And whoever is trying to pull this off, if they know enough about futzing with time to be making this attempt, they know that the echoes will warn people that it's coming. They'll be ready to argue with anyone who tries to thwart them."
"They most certainly will." He finished his coffee.
I had made the right call here. Vadderung's advice had changed the problem from something enormous and inexplicable to something that was merely very difficult, very dangerous, and likely to get me killed.
"Um," I said. "Don't take this the wrong way, but . . . this is a high-stakes game."
"The highest, yes," he agreed.
"I'm thinking that maybe someone with a little more experience and better footing should handle it. Someone like you, maybe."
He shook his head. "It isn't practical."
I frowned. "Not practical?"
"It must be you."
"Why me?"
"It's your island," Vadderung said.
"That makes no sense."
He tilted his head and looked at me. "Wizard . . . you have been dead and returned. It has marked you. It has opened doors and paths that you do not yet know exist, and attracted the attention of beings who formerly would never have taken note of your insignificance."
"Meaning what?" I asked.
There was no humor at all in his face. "Meaning that now more than ever, you are a fulcrum. Meaning that your life is about to become very, very interesting."
"I don't understand," I said.
He leaned forward slightly. "Correct that." He looked at his watch and rose. "I'm afraid I'm out of time."
I shook my head, rising with him, blocking him. "Wait. My plate is already pretty full here, and if you haven't noticed, I'm barely competent to keep myself alive, much less to prevent Arkham Asylum from turning into the next Tunguska blast."
Vadderung met my eyes with his and said in a growl, "Move."
I moved.
I looked away, too. I'd seen too many things with my Sight already. And I had a bad feeling that trading a soulgaze with Vadderung would not improve my performance over the next day or so.
"Where are Hugin and Munin?" I asked.
"I left them at the office," he said. "They don't like you, I'm afraid."
"Birdbrains," I muttered.
He smiled, nodded to Mac, and walked to the door.
"Can I do this?" I asked his back.
"You can."
I made an exasperated sound. "How do you know?"
Odin turned to look back at me with his gleaming eye, his teeth bared in a wolf's smile, the scar on either side of his eye patch silver in the light coming through the door. "Perhaps," he murmured, "you already have."
Then he opened the door and left.
I scowled at where he'd been standing, and then slouched back on my barstool. I grabbed my beer, finished it, and set it down a little harder than I had to.
Mac was back at the grill, making some of his famous steak sandwiches for Thomas and Molly. I waved at him, but before I could say anything, he had already added another steak to the first two. My stomach growled as I got up and went to Molly and Thomas's table.
Perhaps you already have.
Now, what the hell had he meant by that?

Note how Vadderung talks about the design principles of the prison, like someone familiar with the planning and design.
Especially since he also implies that the Merlin didnt do it alone.
That the amount of power needed to do it was beyond a single wizard.

DragonParadox · Jul 12, 2024

Odin was explicitly helped teach Merlin so he is probably not a good measure for what wizards in general know. I can't really say more because again spoilers, all of the spoilers.

Yog · Jul 12, 2024

uju32 said:
But I dont think the Council can operate the way they do without a good measure of knowledge about how the island works.

Why? And what do you mean by how? What, beyond "the island imprisons monsters" do they need?

DragonParadox · Jul 12, 2024

Good night guys, see you tomorrow as the girl invested with the monstrous power of lost ages tries to work out how to approach a prison for monsters of lost ages.

BronzeTongue · Jul 12, 2024

uju32 said:
Shagnasty was on Demonreach during Turn Coat with no harm.

And before that, the Denarians used Demonreach as their local base during Small Favor, with, as of the climax of the book, 6x Denarians, a small army of constructs and mortal minions, AND a massive Circle imprisoning the Archive.
Alfred didnt do anything.

That suggests that when Demonreach doesnt have an active Warden, it doesnt just lash out at most temporary visitors.
With Rashid as a possible exception.

Shagnasty wasn't there to remove something from the prison, and the Denarians are probably an exception because they're impossible to contain long term in that particular facility.

uju32 said:
The Cup Grace is an object, not a person. Part of a living organism, but non-sapient in and of itself.
And given as we know that there were at least two Wardens of Demonreach after Kemmler's tenure, the fact that Embermane remains unsummoned and un-imprisoned is on its face evidence they didnt think it was necessary.

They didnt care enough to return it, but they didnt think it's owner posed a threat to the rest of the world.

As for Dresden? I dont really see the issue.
Its not like he's trying to break into the containment facilities. And as for qualifications, he's still a mortal Starborn wizard. I get the impression there arent many of them running around uncommitted; he's the only one we know of besides maybe Elaine.

I wouldnt worry about it.

Demonreach is a prison for esoteric creatures, the fact that the cup was a valid inmate in the first place inclines me to believe it will continue to be regarded as one. The wardens of the prison not thinking it mattered isn't the same as the prison spirit not thinking the part it has does. The point of the mortal in this system is to make evaluations like that because spirits are very myopic in a lot of ways. It's possible the prison doesn't care to pull in the whole spirit but still doesn't want to give up any part of an entity it already has.

You're missing my point about the qualifications. He's clearly a good candidate, that's why he got the job in canon instead of being blown up by the spirit, but any sane evaluation process for a critical position is going to have a check for conflicts of interest.

A warden nominally trusted with the role choosing to release someone is different than someone looking to get the job so they can let someone out from inside.

You could make an argument about this particular partial inmate appearing harmless, but we're basically performing edge case analysis of a magical mega project here. Would Merlin build his prison to default to allowing release when it can't rely on human judgment to evaluate the situation?

Would he allow people who specifically want to let something out take the role of warden when he can't be sure what entities will be involved and the context of events centuries after his death that might effect the harm even something as "harmless" as a low security inmate like a Naagoloshi might do?

My thought is that it fails safe, and reacts with dramatically more energy to people who show up to get things out than it does to events happening around it.

uju32 said:
I could be wrong, of course

The island doesn't erase itself from maps, instead it's ignored by people like mundane mortals. Presumably on the basis of willpower since some people did notice it enough to put a town on it once.

It's basically practicing Malfean stealth writ large. I'd expect it to show up in pictures but for people's eyes to slide over it just like they naturally navigate away from the place unless they already know where they're going.

Yog · Jul 12, 2024

An idle speculation - if Dresden was Destined to become a sidereal (well, had a chance to become one, really), Demonreach is pretty much the first place I would look at for a shard to be kept in waiting.

BronzeTongue · Jul 12, 2024

Yog said:
An idle speculation - if Dresden was Destined to become a sidereal (well, had a chance to become one, really), Demonreach is pretty much the first place I would look at for a shard to be kept in waiting.

ExWoD doesn't follow that anymore. Because things are broken the shards steal people with significant destinies for something else to use as hosts. He's certainly a valid target for that, but we don't have reason to believe the question deviates from the book here yet.

This is also way too young a spot for a shard to be interred. The shards can't be free to arrange stuff like that or they'd have been doing things before now.

Blackgutter · Jul 12, 2024

[X] As confident as you have to be, this is the right thing to do. Embermane did not deserve to be mutilated in the plots of the Fallen
- [X] and it's not like the situation is forever stable ether. That spirit is going to try to fix itself eventually and better that we do it now on our terms with minimal collateral and a hope of diffusing whatever fallen plan exists than later in an uncontrolled manner and potentially causing horrible problems.

Preventing a Fallen plan coming to fruition is a really good idea. Nothing good will come if it completes.

BronzeTongue · Jul 12, 2024

BoredMan said:
If you want my personal opinion, I wouldn't give them anything too substantial until the traitor issue is fully dealt with. The White Council has Red Court aligned people in it along with Outsider interference of unknown proportions. They should be much more effective at combating the Reds if those issues are sorted without major casualties.

I get that, but if the traitors completely run us out of town so they can kill the council in peace then they're winning by right of forfeit. The situation is delicate enough that it's not going to be solved overnight and the loses incurred will be significant in the meantime.

I think we can still make a difference to the council while also handling the traitor issue. Even if that's not the consensus I still think we should work through the church and St Giles. They're important players here too.

Yog said:
Convention with Rosie - should be doable via a clone
Sponsoring and participating in a Labyrinth dive - has to be done via Molly-prime
Securing the Exaltation - no, I won't budge on this. I am not talking about releasing it, I am talking about securing it.
Dealing with White Council traitors - already overdue.
Forging splendors for the debts we owe - it's exalted craft, so Molly prime
Probably a continuation of NeverNever exploration of Porter's neighbors or possibly a start of the manse project or possibly a start of prep for Lash's plan

Beyond the obvious one we've argued about so much I'm tired of even talking about it I don't really see why the exploration stuff should take priority over the war effort, or what we'd even want to do for Lash's plan.

The knights need to get up to speed with the world, but we're not in a place to start building our side of things or to take the shroud. We don't want to give the game away either, so a lot of our immediate term stuff should be geared around getting stronger and advancing our crafting setup like we're already doing.

uju32 · Jul 12, 2024

Yog said:
Why? And what do you mean by how? What, beyond "the island imprisons monsters" do they need?

How many monsters can it imprison? Does it have a maximum capacity or a minimum capacity? What happens if it goes over-capacity? Does it require maintenance? How much maintenance does it require and how frequently? What are the signs of its instability? Can it defend itself from attack by friends of the inmates? How much attack before it needs reinforcements?

Can I trust that the inmates are isolated from each other and not allowed to communicate and collude?
Are you sure that an inmate cant eat another for power and grow more powerful than the island can contain?
What happens if there's a successful breakout.

Those are all just off the top of my head.
And I sure as fuck am not taking your word for it without independent corroboration that you didnt drop an i in your programming somewhere.

All of this is compounded by the fact that Demonreach has a failsafe explosive charge of "destroy the American Midwest and crack the continental floor" levels of power that goes off if the prison loses containment.

There were hundreds of thousands, if not millions of Native Americans living in the blast radius even before Europeans first landed on the shores of North America. Now there's more than fifty million in the Great Lakes region.
On its face, it appears to be pretty blatantly non-First Law compliant.

And thats not counting the supernaturals, from the local wizards and shamans to the then-gods of those tribes, to the Fae, to the local spirits. Its not like they built this in the middle of nowhere where there was noone to object.
It wasnt free real estate.

I dont see him pulling something like this off without buy-in from a lot of people.
=====

BronzeTongue said:
Shagnasty wasn't there to remove something from the prison, and the Denarians are probably an exception because they're impossible to contain long term in that particular facility.

Nor is Harry.
We are going to remove something from the island. Whether its actually in a prison cell is something we have no way of knowing about.

BronzeTongue said:
Demonreach is a prison for esoteric creatures, the fact that the cup was a valid inmate in the first place inclines me to believe it will continue to be regarded as one. The wardens of the prison not thinking it mattered isn't the same as the prison spirit not thinking the part it has does. The point of the mortal in this system is to make evaluations like that because spirits are very myopic in a lot of ways. It's possible the prison doesn't care to pull in the whole spirit but still doesn't want to give up any part of an entity it already has.

There's at least one mortal human in a Demonreach cell that we saw in canon, before Thomas.
However, there are no inanimate objects in Demonreach's custody that we saw in canon.

We only know that the Cup is on the island, we have no evidence thus far that it actually is in any of the prison cells itself.
The exact phrasing is, and I quote:

Though you half-expect the spirit to ask what a 'Nicklehead' is he seems to have picked it up from context. "Very well then wizard you may know of my woes. I was called to this place, summoned from slumber with blood and with fire willfully set by one such as that which gifted you flame, called in two pieces with fel intent. There is to the east a place with no name where many are bound who would bring ruin to the realm of man. My Cup, my desire, called to the world of fixed form with the specific intent to be bound in that prison so that I-Before-You might serve as a way opener into the prison for the servant of Hell."

What actually happened is something our informant doesnt know.

To the best of our knowledge, it requires a Warden to give an order to imprison an inmate.
And we dont know if there was one then at the time, or if such an order was ever given.

A Grace is inanimate. If Alfred stuffed it in a drawer, it would remain there unless someone got there to take it.

BronzeTongue said:
You're missing my point about the qualifications. He's clearly a good candidate, that's why he got the job in canon instead of being blown up by the spirit, but any sane evaluation process for a critical position is going to have a check for conflicts of interest.

A warden nominally trusted with the role choosing to release someone is different than someone looking to get the job so they can let someone out from inside.

Im not really seeing the issue?

Alfred didnt see a conflict of interest with Harry being Winter Knight and Warden of Demonreach in canon, or with his being sibling to the White Queen's brother either. Or indeed with him using a vacant cell as a medical containment cell for Thomas. I dont really forsee any issue with his seeking a legal method to release something upfront.

Assuming that the Cup is actually imprisoned. It might not be.
The fate of Dresden's body at the end of Ghost Story is precedent for its ability to hold stuff and people without actively putting them into one of Demonreach's cells.

BronzeTongue said:
You could make an argument about this particular partial inmate appearing harmless, but we're basically performing edge case analysis of a magical mega project here. Would Merlin build his prison to default to allowing release when it can't rely on human judgment to evaluate the situation?

Would he allow people who specifically want to let something out take the role of warden when he can't be sure what entities will be involved and the context of events centuries after his death that might effect the harm even something as "harmless" as a low security inmate like a Naagoloshi might do?

My thought is that it fails safe, and reacts with dramatically more energy to people who show up to get things out than it does to events happening around it.

We know that the Merlin did not design Demonreach to default to imprisoning people.
The mortal trespassers had the time to build and run a cannery before eventually getting run off.

Lily and Maeve were both on the island and actively attacking it to break the prison open, with their entourages in tow.
It defended itself against the attacks without actually counter-attacking them. To the point where Mab thanks it for its forbearance.

Mab came in a bell tone of sudden, awful, absolute silence.
There was a flash—not of light, but of sudden snow, of frost that abruptly blanketed everything on the hilltop and gathered thick on my eyelashes. I reached up a hand to flick the snowflakes out of my eyes, and when I lowered it, Mab was there, again in her crow black dress, with her midnight eyes and ebon hair, floating three feet off the ground. The frost was spreading from her, covering the hilltop, and the temperature dropped by twenty degrees.
In the same instant, everything on the hilltop ceased moving. There was no wind. There were no fitful drops of rain. Just pure, brittle, crystalline silence and a sudden bleak black presence that made me feel like hiding behind something, very quietly.
Mab's dark, bleak gaze took in the hilltop at a glance, and stopped on Lily and her supporting coterie. Mab's left eye twitched once. And she spoke in a low, dreadfully precise voice. "Cease. This. Rudeness. At once."
Lily suddenly stared at Mab with wide eyes, like a teenager who had been walked in upon while making out in the living room. The confidence of her stance faltered, and she abruptly lowered her hand. There was a sigh, as of completed labor, from her crew. I checked Demonreach. The guardian spirit had ceased to look slow-motion windblown, and simply stood in the opening to the lighthouse, motionless.
Lily stared at Mab for a few seconds. Then she lifted her chin in defiance and took a few steps, until she stood shoulder to shoulder with Maeve.
Mab made a low, disgusted sound and turned to face me. "I have heeded your summons; yet I would not enter this domain unless specifically bidden. Have I your permission to do so?"
"Yes," I said. "Yes, you do."
Mab nodded her head slightly, and descended to the ground. From me, she turned to Demonreach. "I thank you for your patience and your assistance in this matter. You could have reacted differently but chose not to. I am aware of the decision. It will not be forgotten."
Demonreach bowed its head, barely, a gesture of acknowledgment, not cooperation or compliance.
Once she had seen that, something seemed to ease out of Mab. It was hard to say what gave me that impression, yet I had the same sense of relief I would have felt upon seeing someone remove his hand from the grip of a firearm.
Mab turned back to me and eyed me up and down. She quirked one eyebrow, very slightly, somehow conveying layers of disapproval toward multiple aspects of my appearance, conduct, and situation, and said, "Finally."

Alfred Demonreach doesnt have a human perspective, but he is sapient.
He can be reasoned with, and can be bargained with; he negotiated with both Mab and an unborn Bonea in Dresden's head to keep Dresden's body alive during the six or eight months after he got shot.

Now if the Cup had allegedly been imprisoned by a lawful Warden, I might share your misgivings.
But literally just employed as a weapon at the place by a Denarian?
That doesnt count.

Doesnt make it easy to recover it, but it makes it doable.

Yog · Jul 12, 2024

uju32 said:
How many monsters can it imprison? Does it have a maximum capacity or a minimum capacity? What happens if it goes over-capacity? Does it require maintenance? How much maintenance does it require and how frequently? What are the signs of its instability? Can it defend itself from attack by friends of the inmates? How much attack before it needs reinforcements?

Can I trust that the inmates are isolated from each other and not allowed to communicate and collude?
Are you sure that an inmate cant eat another for power and grow more powerful than the island can contain?
What happens if there's a successful breakout.

Those are all just off the top of my head.
And I sure as fuck am not taking your word for it without independent corroboration that you didnt drop an i in your programming somewhere.

This assumes that the council has been making systematic use of Demonreach. Which is a hell of an assumption.

uju32 said:
I dont see him pulling something like this off without buy-in from a lot of people.

No, that's exactly why it is kept as secret as possible, and no one knows how it works. Similarly as how Blackstaff is kept as secret as possible, and Gatekeeper doesn't share his secrets either.

Degorium · Jul 12, 2024

BroonzeTongue said:
Beyond the obvious one we've argued about so much I'm tired of even talking about it I don't really see why the exploration stuff should take priority over the war effort, or what we'd even want to do for Lash's plan.

Well I can't speak for Yog but on both exploration fronts it's because they would be way less intensive than trying to fight a global war and both benefit us personally considerably more. Our Hell is not completely aligned to our will and are waiting with religious fervor and zeal to be brought to heel. While also containing deep lore and gated power (Fivefold Charms, Ancient Sorcery knowledge, Exalted Lore). Surveying the other side of Porter station is literally just keeping things from happening like the Jades incursion from happening again, it's securing home base in the mortal world at the moment. Then there's the fact The white Council as a whole is fighting The Red Court not individual hero battles unless we are going to go around assassinating key Red members they're already fighting the good fight as best it can be fought while they still have traitors.

Yog · Jul 12, 2024

BronzeTongue said:
Beyond the obvious one we've argued about so much I'm tired of even talking about it I don't really see why the exploration stuff should take priority over the war effort, or what we'd even want to do for Lash's plan.

The knights need to get up to speed with the world, but we're not in a place to start building our side of things or to take the shroud. We don't want to give the game away either, so a lot of our immediate term stuff should be geared around getting stronger and advancing our crafting setup like we're already doing.

The explorations are important because we need a very strong home base. An unassailable fortress, which we can defend. We have poked a lot of monsters. We need to make defenses too, or those around us will suffer.

On the warfront, I maintain that the move with the most efficient effort to benefit ratio would be to break out Aztec / Mayan gods the Red Court has imprisoned.

BronzeTongue · Jul 12, 2024

uju32 said:
Nor is Harry.
We are going to remove something from the island. Whether its actually in a prison cell is something we have no way of knowing about

This is splitting hairs. The cup isn't sitting on a table in a collapsed building or something. To do what the denarian wanted it needed to be inside the defenses as an inmate. Otherwise the spirit going to pick it up would fall under your Naagoloshi clause of not being relevant to the prison spirit.

Being an object isn't relevant when that object is a spirit organ.

uju32 said:
There's at least one mortal human in a Demonreach cell that we saw in canon, before Thomas.
However, there are no inanimate objects in Demonreach's custody that we saw in canon.

For this situation to make sense the Cup must be sealed behind the defenses. I also don't see how the presence of a human matters here. The prison accepts all sorts of inmates and I don't see a reason why something which is itself the spirit of an island would for some reason miss the concept of something which is (part of) a spiritual life form but biologically inert.

The premise of this situation heavily implies it doesn't have such a filter because if it wasn't imprisoned then the spirit could have visited as freely as Shagnasty did and left with the Cup in hand.

uju32 said:
Im not really seeing the issue?

Alfred didnt see a conflict of interest with Harry being Winter Knight and Warden of Demonreach in canon, or with his being sibling to the White Queen's brother either. Or indeed with him using a vacant cell as a medical containment cell for Thomas. I dont really forsee any issue with his seeking a legal method to release something upfront.

Because Harry didn't have those ties till later and didn't want to release anyone until after he had the job. The island can't readily revoke the authority of a Warden, so it's important to filter bad actors. If a cultist showed up with the intent of releasing their god obviously you'd want to reject them at the door if you're applying any standard at all. Once that's set the question becomes what the cutoff is for a rejection.

The safest cutoff is not accepting anyone taking the job for the purpose of release because the designer can't know in advance when some low security inmate might be super dangerous for reasons that won't happen until centuries after they're dead.

uju32 said:
We know that the Merlin did not design Demonreach to default to imprisoning people.
The mortal trespassers had the time to build and run a cannery before eventually getting run off.

Lily and Maeve were both on the island and actively attacking it to break the prison open, with their entourages in tow.
It defended itself against the attacks without actually counter-attacking them. To the point where Mab thanks it for its forbearance.

Mab came in a bell tone of sudden, awful, absolute silence.
There was a flash—not of light, but of sudden snow, of frost that abruptly blanketed everything on the hilltop and gathered thick on my eyelashes. I reached up a hand to flick the snowflakes out of my eyes, and when I lowered it, Mab was there, again in her crow black dress, with her midnight eyes and ebon hair, floating three feet off the ground. The frost was spreading from her, covering the hilltop, and the temperature dropped by twenty degrees.
In the same instant, everything on the hilltop ceased moving. There was no wind. There were no fitful drops of rain. Just pure, brittle, crystalline silence and a sudden bleak black presence that made me feel like hiding behind something, very quietly.
Mab's dark, bleak gaze took in the hilltop at a glance, and stopped on Lily and her supporting coterie. Mab's left eye twitched once. And she spoke in a low, dreadfully precise voice. "Cease. This. Rudeness. At once."
Lily suddenly stared at Mab with wide eyes, like a teenager who had been walked in upon while making out in the living room. The confidence of her stance faltered, and she abruptly lowered her hand. There was a sigh, as of completed labor, from her crew. I checked Demonreach. The guardian spirit had ceased to look slow-motion windblown, and simply stood in the opening to the lighthouse, motionless.
Lily stared at Mab for a few seconds. Then she lifted her chin in defiance and took a few steps, until she stood shoulder to shoulder with Maeve.
Mab made a low, disgusted sound and turned to face me. "I have heeded your summons; yet I would not enter this domain unless specifically bidden. Have I your permission to do so?"
"Yes," I said. "Yes, you do."
Mab nodded her head slightly, and descended to the ground. From me, she turned to Demonreach. "I thank you for your patience and your assistance in this matter. You could have reacted differently but chose not to. I am aware of the decision. It will not be forgotten."
Demonreach bowed its head, barely, a gesture of acknowledgment, not cooperation or compliance.
Once she had seen that, something seemed to ease out of Mab. It was hard to say what gave me that impression, yet I had the same sense of relief I would have felt upon seeing someone remove his hand from the grip of a firearm.
Mab turned back to me and eyed me up and down. She quirked one eyebrow, very slightly, somehow conveying layers of disapproval toward multiple aspects of my appearance, conduct, and situation, and said, "Finally."

Alfred Demonreach doesnt have a human perspective, but he is sapient.
He can be reasoned with, and can be bargained with; he negotiated with both Mab and an unborn Bonea in Dresden's head to keep Dresden's body alive during the six or eight months after he got shot.

Now if the Cup had allegedly been imprisoned by a lawful Warden, I might share your misgivings.
But literally just employed as a weapon at the place by a Denarian?
That doesnt count.

Doesnt make it easy to recover it, but it makes it doable.

Not a human makes its priorities different, not killing attackers is different than unauthorized withdrawal. This situation requires the Cup to by some means be a valid inmate or the fire spirit would have it back by now.

BronzeTongue · Jul 12, 2024

Degorium said:
Well I can't speak for Yog but on both exploration fronts it's because they would be way less intensive than trying to fight a global war and both benefit us personally considerably more. Our Hell is not completely aligned to our will and are waiting with religious fervor and zeal to be brought to heel. While also containing deep lore and gated power (Fivefold Charms, Ancient Sorcery knowledge, Exalted Lore). Surveying the other side of Porter station is literally just keeping things from happening like the Jades incursion from happening again, it's securing home base in the mortal world at the moment. Then there's the fact The white Council as a whole is fighting The Red Court not individual hero battles unless we are going to go around assassinating key Red members they're already fighting the good fight as best it can be fought while they still have traitors.

Yog said:
The explorations are important because we need a very strong home base. An unassailable fortress, which we can defend. We have poked a lot of monsters. We need to make defenses too, or those around us will suffer.

On the warfront, I maintain that the move with the most efficient effort to benefit ratio would be to break out Aztec / Mayan gods the Red Court has imprisoned.

I was more referring to the nevernever stuff than the labyrinth. Poking around isn't actually making defenses, and while they'd be nice Porter getting stronger also makes it harder to attack his Sanctum.

In terms of the Mayan gods doing so is a blind jump because we don't know what they're actually like or capable of here. It's also almost certainly going to involve attacking their most heavily fortified areas and itself be a huge investment to pull off because the reds are using them for stuff. They're not going to have their captured pantheon in a forgotten cellar or glorified supernatural junk drawer.

I'm not implicitly against it, but I don't see why that makes it optimal to do nothing until that point when we have low risk high impact options right now.

Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

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