Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

Angels and archangels dont do stuff like that, at least according to Butcher.
They are supposed to be so overwhelming they are not allowed to act directly in reality because of the risk of breaking it.
Meantime the Primordials caroused in reality just fine until they got thrown out.

There have been several ages since the primordials where there and canon Exalted already contains one instance of Creation being severely weakened.

It makes more sense for reality to be breaking because it is far weaker now (which is corroborated by the exaltations being weaker due to lack of Essence) than for the angels to be that much more powerful.

What did God do? Create a world? Primordials did it too, it's not actually really impressive all things considered, every mythology and their mother have that one.
 
I think it's more connected in our case with the fact that Reality is extremely thin and made of papier-mâché compared to previous iterations. Like, there are two explanations here. Either the archangels are hundreds of times stronger or reality is simply extremely fragile.
Thats true for canon ExWoD. I dont think thats true here.
Or it might just be how Reality has always been, and Molly is just powerful enough to see under the surface. Like a physicist first realizing that the atoms that make up solid matter are mostly empty space.

Holden had two potential explanations for any crossover involving Demon The Fallen:
p261 said:
Demon is one of the trickier World of Darkness games when it comes to crossover, mostly because of cosmology. Demon plays well with Vampire, okay with Mage and Wraith, and not worth much of a damn with anything else. The problem generally comes down to this: the Elohim were personally present for the creation of the universe up through human prehistory, and none of that involved werewolves, faeries, or anything from the Werewolf cosmology.

And it damned sure didn't involve Exalted.

Now, you can work your way past that. You can say the Age of Legends happened while the fallen angels were bound into Hell. You can do the usual handwave about reality having layers. But it is at least a minor headache that you'll have to deal with if you include demons in Exalted vs World of Darkness.

The other issue, of course, is that Demon springs directly out of the Reckoning metaplot. So if you want demons, you either have to make the trade-off of a destroyed Underworld, or figure out another reason why demons are now escaping from Hell.
Assuming you're willing and able to juggle all of that, here's how it works.

Since we've gone with the Wheel analogy, and given the background of Nemesis as we saw it via Crown, Option A appears to be in effect here: (Most of, if not all of)The Fallen of Lucifer's Host were bound in Hell for the previous ages, and only got access to Earth fairly recently by immortal standards.

EDIT
Also of relevance:
p280 said:
General Considerations

The power scaling across the board for Exalted vs
World of Darkness was executed with the intention
of making the Exalted feel unreasonably powerful by
World of Darkness standards, but not necessarily of
faithfully porting them directly in from Exalted. The
conceit that this is the far future of Exalted and that re-
ality has badly decayed on a structural level provided a
good excuse for reducing the complexity level of certain
parts of the Exalted, or removing bits that wouldn't
play well with the World of Darkness. I wanted the
Exalted to be disruptive, but only in certain ways.

A lot of the power calibrations on Charms were
done with the intention of funneling stories into "Ex-
alts vs monsters" instead of "Exalts immediately take
over all human societies and try to rebuild the First
Age in Toronto." It's designed so that you can be really
unstoppable for short periods, but you can't just fight
the entire US Army on the White House lawn from
sunrise to sunset.
If none of the supernatural powers
are willing to throw down with an entire modern army,
the Exalted should at least need to play hit and run if
they want to try it. This limitation also pushed things
toward the genre models I wanted to emulate, in the
form of late-90s action-fantasy films like Blade and The
Matrix, where the protagonists show up, wreak havoc,
and then go to ground for a while to recover.

A small gift costs us nothing. As to the focus - it's only valuable if it's used.
Spirits are not humans, and do not necessarily value the same things.

What they consider a small gift is not necessarily what we consider a small gift; you may be thinking a bottle of Hennessy, while the spirit is thinking a child's voice at midsummer or something similarly esoteric. Giving a new spirit a blank check for gifts might surprise you unpleasantly. Ask Dresden about the time Bob started an orgy in a college dorm.

Worse, it sets a precedent for interaction.

I do not want to be obliged to prepare gifts everytime we have to talk to some smalltime spirit faction or risk them being offended that they dont rate that sort of consideration. Wizards have to do that sort of shit when they summon or talk to spirits, and I'd rather avoid it.


As for the focus, that argument is a lot like justifying not saving parts of your paycheck
This place has been pretty thoroughly signposted as narratively significant.
We are going to be back here.

Burning the only omnicompatible focus regarding to this subject on information we can try to get by other means is just criminal mismanagement.
There have been several ages since the primordials where there and canon Exalted already contains one instance of Creation being severely weakened.

It makes more sense for reality to be breaking because it is far weaker now (which is corroborated by the exaltations being weaker due to lack of Essence) than for the angels to be that much more powerful.

What did God do? Create a world? Primordials did it too, it's not actually really impressive all things considered, every mythology and their mother have that one.
Narratively?
This is an Exalted cross where the Exalted are inserting into another setting, and Exalted does not get primacy here.
They're guests, not hosts.


No, I dont particularly agree.
The Exaltations being weaker pretty much requires that someone else (or Someone Else) having changed the rules in a pretty fundamental way that even Exaltations could not gainsay. Which by Exalted paradigm would be impossible.

Exalted 2E Celestial Exaltations respires and generates Essence at the same rate regardless of whether they are in Creation, Yu-Shan, the Underworld, or the Wyld. Yet they are over here respiring less Essence per day at E1 than any Ex2 Exalt in combat would be regenerating per turn.

Given as Exaltations are Essence generators, that speaks to fundamental internal changes.



The Primordials, a bunch of them working together, created A world.
God created Reality with all the worlds and possibilities within it. Thats the background thesis of the Dresden Files. Thats the thesis further advanced by Yog's vision quest for alien life.

Significant difference.
 
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The etiquette excellency should still be in effect so I'll just edit Yog's plan so we use the scene as a focus before it passes by rather than a nonrenewable one. This place is on the other side of the Last Dog's/Molly's base and it seems like Merlin was active over here. Chances are we'll need the focus later as the less removed something is the better a result we get from the Crown.


[X] Plan good neighbors v2
-[X] Explain that you have made pact with Porter, and that simply leaving them alone puts both you and them in danger, for others might try to attack reality through here. You want to be good neighbors, though, for the benefit of all.
-[X] Try to ask more questions
--[X] How long had they been around?
--[X] What other spirits are around besides Porter?
-[X] Ask what supernatural craft Wizard or otherwise went on here with the scene as a focus

Edit: Also I took out the offerings question because we've no idea what spirits like this will ask for and I don't want to have to go out of our way to get whatever they'd want because they expect us to after we brought it up.
 
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Exalted 2E Celestial Exaltations respires and generates Essence at the same rate regardless of whether they are in Creation, Yu-Shan, the Underworld, or the Wyld. Yet they are over here respiring less Essence per day at E1 than any Ex2 Exalt in combat would be regenerating per turn.
Not true, 2E has a table for who gets reduced Essence respiration in different locations. Core page 313.
TLDR: Living get full in Creation, half in Shadowlands, none in Underworld. (During Calibration it's full in Shadowlands and half in Underworld.)
Dead get full in Underworld, half in Shadowlands, none in Creation. (During Calibration it's full in Shadowlands and half in Creation.)
 
Not true, 2E has a table for who gets reduced Essence respiration in different locations. Core page 313.

TLDR: Living get full in Creation, half in Shadowlands, none in Underworld. (During Calibration it's full in Shadowlands and half in Underworld.)
Dead get full in Underworld, half in Shadowlands, none in Creation. (During Calibration it's full in Shadowlands and half in Creation.)
That was, for Solars, until they had Chaos-Repelling Pattern(E3, Lore 3) up, and you'd be respiring as normal.
Even without that, your stunting would still get you 4m or 1wp IIRC.
Not as conversant with the Lunar or Sidereal charmsets, but I assume they had something similar.

And Wyld respiration was still normal anyway.
 
[X] Plan good neighbors v2
-[X] Explain that you have made pact with Porter, and that simply leaving them alone puts both you and them in danger, for others might try to attack reality through here. You want to be good neighbors, though, for the benefit of all.
-[X] Try to ask more questions
--[X] How long had they been around?
--[X] What other spirits are around besides Porter?
-[X] Ask what supernatural craft Wizard or otherwise went on here with the scene as a focus
 
No, I think you are mistaken.
It is, of course, up to you, but the text is very clear.
Not quite. Thousand and First Hell is similar to Spirit of the Living World, but not the same; the populations of our Hells are sapient and ensouled, with a working connection to an external mythos and soul-reincarnation system. They are not,as far as Im aware, Molly demons.

They cannot be summoned, or bound like demons.They do not count as arcane links to Molly the way inhabitants of the Hell of an Ex2 Devil-Tiger world-soul would. Molly cannot just possess them and walk around in their skin, like Devil-Tigers can.
Nothing here is as self-contained as the Devil-Tiger charmtree from 2E is.

More broadly, the Exaltations themselves appear to have changed with the time and environment.
The very charms are different.
If anything, this represents that we are farther down the road of becoming a Devil Tiger than canon E2 allows. Because Spirit of the Living World doesn't allow for anything to enter or leave the created world. Additional custom brew charms are required for its inhabitants to be summonable, or for anything to be able to enter it:
This created world exists wholly within the
Infernal's soul, but is otherwise a real, ongoing,
self-contained place, which continues to exist
even when she is not paying attention to it. The
internal worlds of the Infernal Exalted are strange,
uncanny places—glassy citadels floating atop clouds
in a brazen sky; a massive upside-down fortress
hanging above a forest of ivory trees surrounding
a still, emerald lake; or a city of cyclopean basalt
towers beneath a jet-black sky in which a single
red eye hangs and stares. The world the Infernal
forges should be consistent with the mood and
themes of the Excellency she created through
Triumphant Howl of the Devil-Tiger, at the Sto-
ryteller's discretion.
The Infernal may mentally visit this world by
taking a miscellaneous action (Speed 5 long ticks,
DV -3) to enter an Inactive meditative state, always
appearing at the center of the first part of the world
she shaped into being. She may leave this trance at
any time with a Speed 5, DV -2 miscellaneous ac-
tion. Individuals created in her inner world do not
have souls of their own and cannot grant her Essence
through prayer, though they are otherwise real to
her while she is there (for instance, she might copy
such a person with Black Mirror Shintai, and any
damage suffered manifests on her physical body).
The Infernal cannot yet travel physically into this
world, bring anything from the outer world into it,
or bring anything from the inner world out. These

feats require additional Charms.
Thousand and First Hell is Spirit of the Living World plus multiple elder essence custom charms.
It very much does so.
Primordials and their Third Circles get into serious fist fights with Exalts; one was famously strangled by Merela as the culmination of a battle/campaign in the First War.

Angels and archangels dont do stuff like that, at least according to Butcher.
They are supposed to be so overwhelming they are not allowed to act directly in reality because of the risk of breaking it.
Meantime the Primordials caroused in reality just fine until they got thrown out.
God lost to iron chariots and was killed via mundane crucifixion. Uriel was seriously threatened with a gun and Michael's wholly mundane life choices. See, I can do this too. Angels not being allowed to interact with reality is, if anything, evidence that White God is inferior to Primordials as a demiurge, since they couldn't make reality good enough to withstand angels. Your interpretation that it somehow proves their superior firepower is bizarre. Exalted on the Primordial level regularly throws out stuff that is either unquantifiable, or uses various types of infinity to quantify itself. Cecelyne is an infinite desert that takes 5 days to pass. Unconquered Sun's Godspear of All-Searing Noon has the following description:
Godspear of All-Searing Noon (Transferable):
The luminous golden spear the Unconquered Sun
wields has the following traits: Speed 3, Accuracy
+10, Damage +20, Defense +10, Range 1 mile,
Rate 4, Tags P,T. It inflicts aggravated damage on
creatures of darkness as a Holy effect. It is wielded
with Melee in close combat and Thrown at range.
To make a ranged attack, the Unconquered Sun
hurls the spear at a target and it reappears in his
hand the instant it strikes. He may inflict bashing
damage with it, in which case the damage does
not spill over past Incapacitated to do worse than
knock the target out. His spear is subject to the
divine geas preventing it from attacking Primor-
dials and Yozis. Valor: The spear inflicts infinite
damage, meaning that a successful hit disintegrates
its intended target into fine white ash or knocks
it out cold unless that target has a defense capable
of setting an attack's damage to zero. Further, the
spear's ranged attack has infinite range within Cre-
ation. What the Unconquered Sun can perceive,
he can blast as if it were immediately adjacent,
calling down a beam from the sky itself to strike
indirectly if so desired.
Note the infinite damage and infinite range. And you know what's interesting? this is not a primordial-made artifact:
Radiant Panoply of the Unconquered Sun:
The Charms here are unique to the panoply of
the Unconquered Sun and cannot be learned by
other beings. To the degree it matters, they have a
minimum Essence of 10. Some of these powers have
been bound into the Four Fulcrums of Righteous
Virtue, artifacts gifted to the Unconquered Sun by
his worshipers to celebrate the defeat of the Pri-
mordials. The Laurel of Entwining Mercy, Trumpet
of Absolute Victory, Aegis of Unconquered Might
and Godspear of All-Searing Noon contain the
glories of Compassion, Conviction, Temperance
and Valor, respectively.
The spear was gifted to Sol by his worshipers to celebrate the victory over Primordials. It's not even intended as a war weapon, it's a show piece forged by either dragon kings, solar exalted (and not elder ones either, since we know Primordial war was won before anyone ascended to E6), or mortal humans. And it does infinite damage.

The border of Creation was infinite in length. The damage to 3 out of a thousand spheres of She Whol Lives in Her Name destroyed 90% of everything, indicating how conceptually large SWLiHN is.

Etc, etc, etc. I can keep pulling these things out. It is pointless and at this point not really interesting or productive. Personally, taking White God as either a Primordial or a Devil Tiger equivalent, or perhaps even as an equivalent for the whole of Primordial Host at one point, with archangels being Celestial Incarna levels seems as the most natural solution that preserves the value of both sides of the story and melds them fairly naturally.

So they are precisely as vulnerable to summoning and binding as every other mortal.
Fair enough.
I assume that Heaven will probably have Opinions about people doing that shit too, like they do elsewhere.
We specifically negotiated White Council summoning spirits from our world.
Why wouldn't we use the scene as a focus before said scene passes by rather than use a nonrenewable focus?
Because it's a different question, and @DragonParadox already said we only got one question about it:
OOC: Since I know it is going to be asked you only get one question since the carved place is part of the literal wall and thus the scene. It's been too long since it was carved for it to count as its own object.
It's non-renewable anyway.
Spirits are not humans, and do not necessarily value the same things.

What they consider a small gift is not necessarily what we consider a small gift; you may be thinking a bottle of Hennessy, while the spirit is thinking a child's voice at midsummer or something similarly esoteric. Giving a new spirit a blank check for gifts might surprise you unpleasantly. Ask Dresden about the time Bob started an orgy in a college dorm.

Worse, it sets a precedent for interaction.

I do not want to be obliged to prepare gifts everytime we have to talk to some smalltime spirit faction or risk them being offended that they dont rate that sort of consideration. Wizards have to do that sort of shit when they summon or talk to spirits, and I'd rather avoid it.
They might want something unreasonable, at which point we are free to say no, this is unreasobable. But it costs us nothing to ask.
 
Narratively?
This is an Exalted cross where the Exalted are inserting into another setting, and Exalted does not get primacy here.
They're guests, not hosts.

No, this is a Dresden files cross where the past of Dresden files was Exalted, the exalted aren't guest, and Dresden files does not have primacy.

In fact, given the increase in the number of exaltations we interact with, I'd say Exalted has primacy.
 
Wait are you sure we did that? I thought we only gave them some guns to try out?
Ah, this was me misremembering a bit. The option of providing the Council the names of Sanctuary spirits to conjure by didn't win (here). We did provide them with access to spirits, though:
"Yep," you tip your head and smile at being 'found out'. "I would also like to offer a bespoke communication network for the Council as a whole if you will accept it. All of it would be Five Cities technology, protected from both being scrambled with magic and more mundane hacking at least initially. Nothing stays foolproof, but that is no reason not to try to keep ahead of the wave."

"To keep our heads above water?" the Merlin asked, a touch sardonically to the vaguely approving grumbles of his guard detail. "The White Council's situation is not so grave as to wave safety concerns, but the offer and the thought behind it is appreciated."

About what you had expected honestly. "I can provide samples of spirit technology and translated texts relating to the use and fundamental principles."

"These are aspect spirits of your domain correct?" Tim the warden asks and this time the Merlin does not cut him off, either mentally or aloud, he is meant to ask something his boss would find impolitic to do himself.

You nod and take a sip of your drink.

"And the domain is a part of you?"

Ah you see where this is going...

"How much access would you have to this communication?"

For once you do not even consider the devious option and even Usum does not bring it up, maybe because he is cooking up something more subtle but still... "Unfettered access." As you say that the wizards, well all wizards not named 'Harry Dresden' at least tense up. "Well that needs some temporizing, they will be bound to their word the same as any other spirit you might call and right now I don't know how to unbind them, but I am certain with that understanding that is called in tomes of gramaire intelectus that is I try I could."

As you collect your thoughts you turn off the tablet, flip Clippy closed, though of course she is still recording. "All of them are part of me, the me that is the sponsor, like higher dimensional Molly and..."

Lost 1 Essence -> Now at 10/15 (Occult Excellency)

Another pause, this one unplanned as light blooms around you, eyes uncounted like a shoal of strange fish floating though the air "You know intelectus is really weird, I cannot put into words how wierd it is not to know something until you think about it, especially when your previous assumption about how something works turns out to have been wrong."

OK, slight flinching other than Harry who is shaking his head and rolling his eyes.

"The world was built as a dream our of memory and desire, sketched in with values and colored in with hopes. One of those values, the foundational ones is free will. The spirits are loyal to me but they are not simply extensions of my will no more than any other inhabitants of that domain so that means I cannot break them out of their contracts now. But things change, people change, I could change..." Terrifying as the change being considered here is you do not flinch form it "That is why I presented it this way rather than try to slither my way around it."

"Out of concern of the harm that could be done by a third party, foe to us all, revealing the degree of your potential control after a deal had been reached," Langtry speaks softly. For the first time in the course of the meeting his expression softens into sympathy. Not that the calculation is gone from his eyes. There's probably a better change of his beard crawling off his face on its own than the cold light behind his eyes going out, but for this one moment at least it falls under a veil. "I do not envy you having to make these decisions so swiftly Ms Carpenter, though at least you have good counsel," he nods towards your dad.
 
Ah, this was me misremembering a bit. The option of providing the Council the names of Sanctuary spirits to conjure by didn't win (here). We did provide them with access to spirits, though:
So we offered to give them cyberdevils only. Good. We don't need the Red Court or whomever else infiltrated them using our spirits.

I don't think they actually gave us a response on that though, and we never installed such a network. The WC did visit the Five Courts but never followed up or gave a a response on that particular offer as of yet.
 
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Vote closed.
Adhoc vote count started by DragonParadox on Jul 6, 2024 at 9:30 AM, finished with 41 posts and 9 votes.

  • [X] Plan good neighbors v2
    -[X] Explain that you have made pact with Porter, and that simply leaving them alone puts both you and them in danger, for others might try to attack reality through here. You want to be good neighbors, though, for the benefit of all.
    -[X] Try to ask more questions
    --[X] How long had they been around?
    --[X] What other spirits are around besides Porter?
    -[X] Ask what supernatural craft Wizard or otherwise went on here with the scene as a focus
    [X] Plan good neighbors
    -[X] Explain that you have made pact with Porter, and that simply leaving them along puts both you and them in danger, for other might try to attack reality through here. You want to be good neighbors, though, for the benefit of all.
    -[X] Try to ask more questions
    --[X] How long had they been around?
    --[X] What other spirits are around beside Porter
    --[X] What offerings would they prefer from their neighbors as a sign of good will?
    -[X] Ask your one question of the chamber, they do not seem to notice that unlike Harry's Sight
 
Arc 13 Post 27: Of Elements Occluded
Of Elements Occluded

7th of February 2007 A.D.

After explaining that you are Porter's new liege, no sense lying on that one, you frame the meeting as something like 'meeting the neighbors'. Sorry Harry, you wince inwardly thinking of his poor hands, but unless one's willing to fight there's no point in being adversarial. Inspiration's Children don't have much interest in empathy, or community, only in the work of brilliant minds. Thus you present the possibility, plucked whole from pure guesswork as it might be, that their chamber could be a path by which the Last Station might be attacked.

"[Null Presence/Stable event diffusion probable]" they counter as firm as the Language will allow. It is not a boast, for such is not their way, but a statement of intent. They will guard as they have ever done. One gets the sense that the years and centuries lie very lightly in this place where naught is spoken but the whispering of the stream. The Internet is new here, but so perhaps is the printed word and mayhap even the written.

"[Particulate/Motonic alterations actualizing]." Maybe you are exaggerating a bit, Porter's new line isn't going to alter the physical constants along it if you understand what Miru is planning, more like lean into some edge cases. Quantum tunneling does happen in nature after all.

"[State purpose?]" The buzzing sounds a little alarmed, enough that Harry is starting to give you worried looks.

But you've got this "[Joy in becoming of the Earth-Dragon-Kin]." Just because something isn't made for empathy, doesn't mean they don't understand kindness, much like those quantum tunnels one just has to know how to tip the board

"[Light-in-light carried, how may we join-in-circle?]" comes the rather hesitant question, still not entirely sure what you are, but caught up in the vision of Porter fulfilling his dream or racing swift as the wind though he is stone.

"[Reveal the hidden bright unburning flame,]" you entreat.

As much as cardinal directions matter: north of here, in the place Porter identified as 'Wind' is the Hollow Bread Roost, or the 'Place of the Fleshless Ones' for the memory of murdered things now roosted there darkening the sky while to the west there still lurked the Embermane, a patron of wild fire and misfortune that had only once been loosed upon the mortal world, but still hungered for the screams of men. Of what which lies further east of here, following the thread of the stream to the lake-that-should be-sea they can speak but a little, but the shape of their silence draws a rough outline in your mind. There had been taken the star that was mined here, something had been made on the lake, something even Embermane fears and not just as fire deeply fears water. Lastly there is the possibility of going south, though you will have to dig your own path through solid rock to do so... and once you do so whatever you find will have a path back here. Harry unsurprisingly votes to deal with what seems to be the most unambiguous problem of the fire spirit, he'd have probably done so already if he knew it was there.

Before making the choice you sneak another look at the place the star of Jade is not and ask, peering with bright eyes through the ages: "What arcane craft took place here?"

With chisel carved of Age and Entropy
Fate was spun for those of lost identity
For broken gods and shattered principalities
A recapitulation of Creation's abnormalities

A prison, you shiver, for things that no longer fit.

Lost 1 Essence -> Now at 13/18

Where does Moly want to head to next?

[] North to the Empty Roost, the spirits dwelling there are described as being gripped by the sorrow than wrath, maybe there's something you can do to help or at least some agreement you can reach with them on borders in the Nevernever

[] West to deal with Embermane, that sounds like it's going to have a straightforward if violent solution

[] East onto the water, to find the frightful thing Unnamed

[] South, carve a new path

[] Write in


OOC: Healing Harry is also a bit of a concern since none of your potions work on Atribute damage from spirit charms, but Harry being Harry he is more than willing to soldier on for now.
 
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