Good night guys, see you in the morning with more spider-bees and other things Harry Dresden would have preferred to not have met, but is somehow not surprised to have done so. 
Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)
- Thread starter DragonParadox
- Start date
- Crossover Fantasy
Ok, direct citations:
1) Lytek's tools (made by Autochton) allowed to embed exaltations into any host desired, even unsuitable ones (compass of celestial directions: Yu-Shan):
Apparently this was standard practice during Primordial War.
2) Lytek himself cannot directly choose who exalts by his innate abilities, but he can make tweaks and exert some measure of influence. Also, he can control when a terrestrial exalts:
3) The first batch of exalted might have been hand selected. This is what Exalted 2E core says:
This is open to interpretation, yes, but indicates direct intentional selection of the first Exalted by Incarnae.
4) At least some Lunars were directly selected by Luna (various sources):
This case is specifically Luna making arrangements and selections herself:
This might be a trick of perception:
5) Exalted vs. World of Darkness revised has the following 1 dot solar charm:
This is something every solar can learn once they reach essence 3. Ancient Sorcery and Splendors are effects with the power of charms. Replicating the effect of a 1 dot charm should not be outside of the boundaries of possiblity.
6) A mortal can be Destined to Exalt, as in "the Loom of Fate can be manipulated to make sure a mortal Exalts" (2E, manual of exalted power: sidereals):
The Destiny background is as follows:
This is an actual game mechanic that, while not absolute, can alter the probabilities in favor of a certain person exalting. As I understand it, sidereal charms allow for Destiny manipulation of some kind.
So the statement of "you cannot choose or influence who exalts" are just wrong. Yes, you can. It's not even that hard either. You can stack Destiny 5 on top of Should the Sun not Rise or a similar effect imitated through a splendor / Ancient Sorcery, and top it off with a direct artifact manipulation of the shard itself.
It's not easy making a guarantee. But affecting the odds? That's totally doable. And I am leaving out many other examples that undoubtedly exist.
I rather assumed that Molly herself would be giving the password. But yeah, fair. So:
[X] Try to talk the spirits down
-[X] Use the Crown on one of the spirits to learn the password / secret handshake
-[X] Give them the password / secret handshake
--[X] Source Code Compliance Protocol if needed
-[X] Etiquette excellency
-[X] Make excuse for Harry not knowing the password
--[X] Subterfuge excellency
--[X] Stunt: In between two steps needed to create more distance, come two blinks - one of your mortal eyes, and the other of the eyes of your soul. You see what the spirit guardians expected, wished to see and hear, and with that you know what to say. Affecting the most tired irritation you can, you shout at Harry, slipping into the first tongue mid-speech: "And that's why, Warden, you don't just skim the security briefings! Because then stuff like this happens! And I have to pull your ass out of the fire! Again!", before turning your attention to the guardian spirits, and starting to make excuses.
Molly herself is not a wizard, she is very weird and maybe dangerous looking. She is not sure what kind of senses these spirits use, but from what she has experienced... they probably aren't going to think she is benevolent.
Can this work:
[] Use Black Mirror Incarnation to turn into Molly as a Wizard, making it look like you instead are shedding the disguise, rather than assuming it.
Also, wouldn't Molly be wearing BMI by default to look mortal? I assumed she was reading as a completely mundane mortal right now.
Would have worked if you did it previously, but you are not a Sidereal with Dynamic LARPing, they are probably going to doubt your wizardly skills and ask to see your magic... which Molly cannot cast
Ok. How is Molly presenting to their senses right now? I was assuming she felt fully mortal?
She just used EIPP and they now look confused by the flash of infernal essence.
The solars did pretty much as they pleased when they started going nuts and never managed it. To the extent there are exceptions that changed the rules it's pretty much exclusively the result of primordial interference. That is, self contained sapient realities turned creator deities.
Knowing the conditions of something doesn't necessarily mean you can actually predict and manipulate something in a real system. Especially if it's designed to resist tampering. Moreover, the lore behavior of most factions makes no sense if you could pick precisely who you wanted consistently or manipulate exaltation selection without reengineering them first.
Why didn't the primordials make a new batch of humans and ensure that they were the perfect fit for some solars they'd just killed? Why didn't the deliberative pick and choose its membership? Why didn't everyone train dedicated fanatics for their cause and then hand their shards out on a schedule instead of pulling in outsiders?
My opinion here is that trying this should have Greek Tragedy level consequences for your hubris, where the exaltation uses its position outside of fate to spite you for screwing with it. Sometimes you get an Uriel situation where it goes terribly right, but we're not an archangel and even he
1) Didn't know what he was actually messing with as seen by his ignorance of the potential hell charm
2) Has stuck himself babysitting a primordial toddler that keeps eating weird bugs in his backyard and appears to be plotting to kill his estranged siblings.
Citation please. Exaltations themselves are not typically outside fate. Solars and Lunars are also not outside fate. The Celestial exalted can disrupt fate, yes, but are not outside of it.
Because they couldn't see mortals as dangerous. Primordials for all their glory are weirdly limited beings, only capable of thinking within their themes.
Because the deliberative was not a united force? Not in the way it would need to be to do this.
But it isn't designed to resist tampering, not in this way. If you think it is, please provide citations.
EDIT: Notably, we don't know the limits of the geas on the gods. For example, as far as I know, Sol wasn't ordered to fight on the side of Primordials against exalted. Why?
Last edited:
BoredMan
Maintaining the Agenda is our top priority
Yeah it escaped me that they'd be sapient somehow. They appeared after Harry used the Sight so my mind went to autonomic defensive response which made me think drones. The Sight isn't something that others are supposed to be able to notice when in use though so I'm guessing they would've responded like this to any Wizard...
Stunt is well written.
[X] Yog
Stunt is well written.
[X] Yog
This is really dumb. If they could do that and the considerations that we were given about the primordials didn't apply why would they even have any other method?
For celestials it looks like he can push details around in when and how someone will exalt after the exaltation chooses, but can't do more than that unless he directly tinkers with them. Perhaps not even then.
2E itself makes a point about how the gods can't pick because if they could they would have been ordered to betray themselves. To the extent that this has room for interpretation that piece of lore is more important and should set the bar for how far they can go.
An exaltation acting on itself is not even in the same zip code as manipulating it from the outside, the comparison is ridiculous.
So why didn't the people who designed fate and could have acted on it at any time up to the end of the war do that?
There is clearly more room for manipulation than I believed, but a significant portion of this seems to directly contradict the base requirements shaping the design conceit of the exalted.
In any case, we aren't the god of exaltation with all the credentials and tools Autobot left behind to manipulate who got what.
Your own cite has solars ducking out of destiny when they exalt. The exalted are outside of fate because they have an exaltation. This is the explanation for player agency in a setting with strong destiny rules.
Even after they started dying?
Solars nearly broke reality over a philosophical issue with how sorcery works. If they didn't do it together they would've tried it individually.
Still looking for citations, but I'd point out that the exalted died inside the Jotun bodies of primordials and left to respawn as they pleased. It wasn't until the exaltations where basically stuck in a box by people with stolen credentials that they could do anything to them.
Presumably Theion at the very least would have tried everything before accepting being turned inside and shoved up his own ass to live as an eldritch turducken of people he hates.
At minimum if people without specific tools and credentials could screw with exaltations without being over gods that can fundamentally reengineer them if caught while powered down they would have done that.
Similarly, the Sidreals would have made it easier to catch rogue solar shards if they could just fate people in easily accessed locations to be the targets and plan for their deaths immediately after the fact.
Because automatic method is more efficient in many situations and doesn't have the same fail states like Lytek being killed? It does not require active involvement of Incarnae, which is a big bonus.
Please provide citation. I wasn't able to find any text saying this, or even implying this. The gods cannot command exalted, that's the point. Nothing is said about not being able to select their chosen.
After an Exalt dies, they are not exalted anymore, and no, it is not ridiculous, because it's still manipulating an exaltation's selection criteria.
Which people? Maidens were in Rebellion. And who said they didn't?
Yes. Primordials perceive the universe through their themes.
Who says they didn't and who says they didn't succeed?
By the time solar exaltations escaped their prisons, the state of Creation was bad enough that Sidereals couldn't reliably predict next Sidereal exaltations, simply due to overwork.
I own the book.
Autobot doesnt make the Alchemical Exaltation; the demiurges channel his inspiration, but they make it themselves.
Even his Ministers, his Third Circle souls have to seek out mortals to make Alchemicals, they cant just make it themselves despite being Autochton. The human interface is necessary.
Not to say Autobot cant make them when he's awake, but he's not.
======
1) Becoming a Primordial is an E10 charm.
Even becoming a devil-tiger requires an E6 charm, and the Devil-Tiger advancement tree and the Primordial advancement tree, are mutually exclusive of each other.
2) You cant be a human + Celestial Exalt and a Primordial.
Becoming a Primordial in 2E requires taking the charm (Yozi) Cosmic Principle at E10.
(Ebon Dragon) Cosmic Principle (Cost: —; Mins: Es-
sence 10; Type: Permanent; Duration: Permanent;
Keywords: Shaping; Prerequisites: First Ebon Dragon
Excellency): This Charm shapes the Ebon Dragon's
Essence into a single Personal pool with a capacity of
1,000 motes and makes him immune to aging, but it
imposes the Greater Imperfection of Ultimate Dark-
ness on him. Upon learning this Charm, a character
loses all non-Ebon Dragon Charms and Combos
containing such Charms (and the capacity to learn
such powers), converting lost magic into appropriate
experience points. If an Exalt, his Exaltation departs
as it no longer recognizes him as human, leaving him
with "only" the Primordial power he has become. He
may adapt thematically appropriate Charms from other
Yozis to his own imagery and principles as Ebon Dragon
Charms without regard for their prerequisites, but he
can't teach these Charms to others. Once learned,
this Charm and permanent Charms building off it do
not deactivate if the character loses permanent Es-
sence for any reason. The fetich of the Ebon Dragon
cannot channel this Charm or any Charm requiring
it as a prerequisite, as the part cannot be the whole.
This Charm may not be learned through the Eclipse
anima power or equivalent effects, save for Primordial
Principle Emulation (see Glories of the Most High—
The Unconquered Sun, pp. 30–31).
sence 10; Type: Permanent; Duration: Permanent;
Keywords: Shaping; Prerequisites: First Ebon Dragon
Excellency): This Charm shapes the Ebon Dragon's
Essence into a single Personal pool with a capacity of
1,000 motes and makes him immune to aging, but it
imposes the Greater Imperfection of Ultimate Dark-
ness on him. Upon learning this Charm, a character
loses all non-Ebon Dragon Charms and Combos
containing such Charms (and the capacity to learn
such powers), converting lost magic into appropriate
experience points. If an Exalt, his Exaltation departs
as it no longer recognizes him as human, leaving him
with "only" the Primordial power he has become. He
may adapt thematically appropriate Charms from other
Yozis to his own imagery and principles as Ebon Dragon
Charms without regard for their prerequisites, but he
can't teach these Charms to others. Once learned,
this Charm and permanent Charms building off it do
not deactivate if the character loses permanent Es-
sence for any reason. The fetich of the Ebon Dragon
cannot channel this Charm or any Charm requiring
it as a prerequisite, as the part cannot be the whole.
This Charm may not be learned through the Eclipse
anima power or equivalent effects, save for Primordial
Principle Emulation (see Glories of the Most High—
The Unconquered Sun, pp. 30–31).
If we become a Primordial, the Exaltation is going to move on because we stop being human.
Thats the point; in 2E when you learn (Yozi)Cosmic Principle the Exaltation leaves, because in becoming a Primordial you stop being human.
The fact that its still around is the definitive sign we're still human.
As you wish.
1) Thats where I think you're wrong. Thats why I provided the quote about Nicodemus playing Armageddon Lotto.
Nicky doesnt plan like we do; part of the reason he's been so successful is that he doesnt appear to make plans with a primary goal. He's more oriented like a kickstarter, where there's a series of goals to hit, and hitting even one of them translates to a success for that particular enterprise.
To compare?
It would be a failure if we'd gone to the Wicked City to get Joe, failed, and picked up a bunch of people as a consolation prize.
But if we'd gone to the Wicked City with Joe as just one of several goals, where any one would have qualified as a success?
You dont believe me?
Listen to Nicodemus himself describe the results of Small Favor to Dresden after he realizes that Rosanna and Tessa stole the Coins and bailed:
He stared at me for a moment, his eyes searching, and then murmured something under his breath. Whispers rolled from the shadows around him. I didn't recognize the language, but I did recognize the tone. I wondered if the angelic tongue had swear words, or if they just said nice words backward or something. Doog! Teews doog!
Nicodemus's sword came up as swiftly as a flickering snake's tongue and came to rest against my throat. I didn't have time to flinch; it was that fast. I sucked in a quick breath and held very, very still.
"These marks," he murmured. "Thorned Namshiel's strangler spell." His eyes drew a line from the last apparent mark on my neck down to the duster pocket that the bag of coins had been in. "Ah. The strangulation was the distraction. He picked your pocket with one of the other wires before he was incapacitated. He did that to Saint...someone-or-other, in Glasgow in the thirteenth century."
There's nothing like getting taken with an old trick, I guess. But that meant that Namshiel had been working together with someone else-someone else who had to have been hanging around to collect the coins after he'd taken them from my pocket and tossed them off to the side in the confusion. Someone who hadn't been pulling a fade after all.
"Tessa and Rosanna," I said quietly. "They got their collection of thugs back. They bailed at just the right moment to ruin your plan, too."
"Deceitful bitches," Nicodemus murmured. "One of them is our own Judas; I was sure of it."
I lifted my eyebrows. "What?"
"That's why I let them handle the more, shall we say, memorable aspects of the Archive's initiation to our world," Nicodemus said. "I suppose now that the child is free, she'll have some rather unpleasant associations with those two."
"And you're telling me this why?"
He shrugged a shoulder. "It's somewhat ironic, Dresden, that I can talk to you about this particular aspect of family business. You're the only one that I'm sure hasn't gone over to this new force-this Black Council of yours."
"How can you be so sure about me?" I asked him.
"Please. No one so obstreperous has been corrupted by anything but his own pure muleheadedness." Nicodemus shook his head, never taking his eyes off me. "Still. My time here has not been wasted. The Knights carried away Namshiel's coin, so Tessa has lost her sorcery teacher. I heard Magog's bellow end quite abruptly a few moments ago, just before you walked out of the same building, so with any luck Tessa's heaviest bruiser is out of the game for a time as well, eh?" Nicodemus smiled cheerily at me. "Perhaps his collar is in one of your pockets. And I have Fidelacchius. Removal of one of the Three is profit enough for one operation, even if I did lose this chance at gaining control of the Archive."
"What makes you think," I said, "that you have Fidelacchius?"
"I told you," Nicodemus said. "This is endgame. No more playing." The pitch and intonation of his voice changed, and though he still spoke in my direction, it was clear that he was no longer speaking to me. "Shadow, if you would, disable Dresden. We'll talk some sense into him later, in a quieter setting."
He was talking to Lasciel's shadow.
Hell, wizards didn't have a monopoly on arrogance.
Neither did the Knights of the Cross.
I stiffened in place, my mouth half-open. Then I fell over sideways, body resting against the boat's steering wheel, my spine ramrod straight. I didn't move, not one little twitch.
Nicodemus sighed and shook his head. "Dresden, I truly regret this necessity, but time is growing short. I must act, and your talents could prove useful. You'll see. Once we've cleared some of these well-intentioned idiots out of our way..." He reached for Fidelacchius.
And I punched him in the neck.
Nicodemus's sword came up as swiftly as a flickering snake's tongue and came to rest against my throat. I didn't have time to flinch; it was that fast. I sucked in a quick breath and held very, very still.
"These marks," he murmured. "Thorned Namshiel's strangler spell." His eyes drew a line from the last apparent mark on my neck down to the duster pocket that the bag of coins had been in. "Ah. The strangulation was the distraction. He picked your pocket with one of the other wires before he was incapacitated. He did that to Saint...someone-or-other, in Glasgow in the thirteenth century."
There's nothing like getting taken with an old trick, I guess. But that meant that Namshiel had been working together with someone else-someone else who had to have been hanging around to collect the coins after he'd taken them from my pocket and tossed them off to the side in the confusion. Someone who hadn't been pulling a fade after all.
"Tessa and Rosanna," I said quietly. "They got their collection of thugs back. They bailed at just the right moment to ruin your plan, too."
"Deceitful bitches," Nicodemus murmured. "One of them is our own Judas; I was sure of it."
I lifted my eyebrows. "What?"
"That's why I let them handle the more, shall we say, memorable aspects of the Archive's initiation to our world," Nicodemus said. "I suppose now that the child is free, she'll have some rather unpleasant associations with those two."
"And you're telling me this why?"
He shrugged a shoulder. "It's somewhat ironic, Dresden, that I can talk to you about this particular aspect of family business. You're the only one that I'm sure hasn't gone over to this new force-this Black Council of yours."
"How can you be so sure about me?" I asked him.
"Please. No one so obstreperous has been corrupted by anything but his own pure muleheadedness." Nicodemus shook his head, never taking his eyes off me. "Still. My time here has not been wasted. The Knights carried away Namshiel's coin, so Tessa has lost her sorcery teacher. I heard Magog's bellow end quite abruptly a few moments ago, just before you walked out of the same building, so with any luck Tessa's heaviest bruiser is out of the game for a time as well, eh?" Nicodemus smiled cheerily at me. "Perhaps his collar is in one of your pockets. And I have Fidelacchius. Removal of one of the Three is profit enough for one operation, even if I did lose this chance at gaining control of the Archive."
"What makes you think," I said, "that you have Fidelacchius?"
"I told you," Nicodemus said. "This is endgame. No more playing." The pitch and intonation of his voice changed, and though he still spoke in my direction, it was clear that he was no longer speaking to me. "Shadow, if you would, disable Dresden. We'll talk some sense into him later, in a quieter setting."
He was talking to Lasciel's shadow.
Hell, wizards didn't have a monopoly on arrogance.
Neither did the Knights of the Cross.
I stiffened in place, my mouth half-open. Then I fell over sideways, body resting against the boat's steering wheel, my spine ramrod straight. I didn't move, not one little twitch.
Nicodemus sighed and shook his head. "Dresden, I truly regret this necessity, but time is growing short. I must act, and your talents could prove useful. You'll see. Once we've cleared some of these well-intentioned idiots out of our way..." He reached for Fidelacchius.
And I punched him in the neck.
2)I dont agree.
Shiro knew he was going to die, and not because of terminal cancer; his sacrifice for Dresden was premeditated.
He even had the time to write a letter explaining before the whole affair started:
Michael offered me an envelope and the cane as a unit. I took them both, and frowned at the envelope. The lettering was in black calligraphy, and flowed beautifully across the envelope.
"To Harry Dresden. And it's your address, Michael. Postmarked two weeks ago."
Michael shrugged.
I opened the envelope and found two pages inside. One was a copy of a medical report. The other was ornately handwritten, like the envelope. It read:
Dear Mr. Dresden,
By the time you read this letter, I will be dead. I have not been given the details, but I know a few things that will happen over the next few days. I write you now to say what I might not have the chance to in the flesh.
Your path is often a dark one. You do not always have the luxury that we do as Knights of the Cross. We struggle against powers of darkness. We live in black and white, while you must face a world of greys. It is never easy to know the path in such a place.
Trust your heart. You are a decent man. God lives in such hearts.
Enclosed is a medical report. My family is aware of it, though I have not shared it with Michael or Sanyo. It is my hope that it will give you a measure of comfort in the face of my choice. Do not waste tears on me. I love my work. We all must die. There is no better way to do so than in the pursuit of something you love.
Walk in mercy and truth,
Shiro
I read over the medical report, blinking at several tears.
"What is it?" Sanya asked.
"It's from Shiro," I said. "He was dying."
Michael frowned at me.
I held up the medical report. "Cancer. Terminal. He knew it when he came here."
Michael took it and let out a long breath. "Now I understand."
"I don't."
Michael passed the report to Sanya and smiled. "Shiro must have known that we would need you to stop the Denarians. It's why he traded himself for your freedom. And why he accepted the curse in your place."
"Why?"
Michael shrugged. "You were the one we needed. You had all of the information. You were the one who realized Cassius was masquerading as Father Vincent. You had contacts within the local authorities to give you access to more information, to help us when we needed the concourse emptied. You were the one who could call in Marcone for his help."
"I'm not sure that says anything good about me," I said, glowering.
"It says that you were the right man in the right place and at the right time," Michael said. "What of the Shroud? Does Marcone have it?"
"I think so."
"How should we handle it?"
"We don't. I do."
"To Harry Dresden. And it's your address, Michael. Postmarked two weeks ago."
Michael shrugged.
I opened the envelope and found two pages inside. One was a copy of a medical report. The other was ornately handwritten, like the envelope. It read:
Dear Mr. Dresden,
By the time you read this letter, I will be dead. I have not been given the details, but I know a few things that will happen over the next few days. I write you now to say what I might not have the chance to in the flesh.
Your path is often a dark one. You do not always have the luxury that we do as Knights of the Cross. We struggle against powers of darkness. We live in black and white, while you must face a world of greys. It is never easy to know the path in such a place.
Trust your heart. You are a decent man. God lives in such hearts.
Enclosed is a medical report. My family is aware of it, though I have not shared it with Michael or Sanyo. It is my hope that it will give you a measure of comfort in the face of my choice. Do not waste tears on me. I love my work. We all must die. There is no better way to do so than in the pursuit of something you love.
Walk in mercy and truth,
Shiro
I read over the medical report, blinking at several tears.
"What is it?" Sanya asked.
"It's from Shiro," I said. "He was dying."
Michael frowned at me.
I held up the medical report. "Cancer. Terminal. He knew it when he came here."
Michael took it and let out a long breath. "Now I understand."
"I don't."
Michael passed the report to Sanya and smiled. "Shiro must have known that we would need you to stop the Denarians. It's why he traded himself for your freedom. And why he accepted the curse in your place."
"Why?"
Michael shrugged. "You were the one we needed. You had all of the information. You were the one who realized Cassius was masquerading as Father Vincent. You had contacts within the local authorities to give you access to more information, to help us when we needed the concourse emptied. You were the one who could call in Marcone for his help."
"I'm not sure that says anything good about me," I said, glowering.
"It says that you were the right man in the right place and at the right time," Michael said. "What of the Shroud? Does Marcone have it?"
"I think so."
"How should we handle it?"
"We don't. I do."
In canon, in the Dresdenverse, Michael Carpenter was crippled in the climax of Small Favor.
Nevertheless, he has provided ongoing support to the Church in general and Dresden in particular multiple times, served as the home/safe house for Maggie Carpenter and Mouse after Dresden died,helped train the new wielder of Fidelacchius, and has even twice come off the bench to wield Amoracchius. And thats just stuff that we saw onscreen.
Thats why when Dresden asked Uriel why they let the Denarians cost them a warrior, Uriel laughed.
I sipped some more Scotch. "Come to think of it, there are a lot of things I don't get about this whole situation."
"And you want an explanation of some kind?" asked a man seated in the pew beside me.
I just about jumped out of my skin.
He was an older man. He had dark skin and silver-white hair, and he wore a workman's blue jumpsuit, like you often see on janitors. The name tag read JAKE.
"You," I breathed. "You're the archangel. You're Uriel."
He shrugged. The gesture carried acknowledgment, somehow.
"What are you doing here?" I asked—maybe a bit blearily. I was concussed and half the flask was gone.
"Perhaps I'm a hallucination brought on by head trauma and alcohol," he said.
"Oh," I said. I peered at him, and then offered him the flask. "Want a belt?"
"Very kind," he said, and took a swig from the flask. He passed it back to me. "I don't exactly make it a habit to do this, but if you've got questions, ask them."
"Okay," I said. "Why did you guys let Michael get so screwed up?"
"We didn't let him do anything," Jake replied calmly. "He chose to hazard himself in battle against the enemy. The enemy chose to shoot him, and where to point the gun and when to pull the trigger. He survived the experience."
"So in other words, God was doing nothing to help."
Jake smiled. "Wouldn't say that. But you got to understand, son. God isn't about making good things happen to you, or bad things happen to you. He's all about you making choices—exercising the gift of free will. God wants you to have good things and a good life, but He won't gift wrap them for you. You have to choose the actions that lead you to that life."
"Free will, huh?"
"Yes. For example, your free will on that island."
I eyed him and sipped more Scotch.
"You saw the Valkyrie staring at Michael. You thought he was in danger. So even though it was your turn, you sent him up to the helicopter in your place."
"No good deed goes unpunished," I said, with one too many sh sounds. "That's where he got hurt."
Jake shrugged. "But if you hadn't, you'd have died in that harness, and he'd have died on that island."
I scowled. "What?"
Jake waved a hand. "I won't bore you with details, but suffice to say that your choice in that moment changed everything."
"But you lost a Knight," I said. "A warrior."
Jake smiled. "Did we?"
"He can barely walk without that cane. Sure, he handled Douglas, but that's a far cry from dealing with a Denarian."
"Ah," Jake said, "you mean warrior in the literal sense."
"What other kind of warrior is there?" I asked.
"The important kind."
I frowned again.
"Harry," Jake said, sighing. "The conflict between light and darkness rages on so many levels that you literally could not understand it all. Not yet, anyway. Sometimes that battlefield is a literal one. Sometimes it's a great deal more nebulous and metaphorical."
"But Michael and I are literal guys," I said.
Jake actually laughed. "Yeah? Do you think we angled to have you brought into this situation because we needed you to beat someone up?"
"Well. Generally speaking. Yeah." I gestured with the flask. "Pretty much all we did was beat up this guy who had good intentions and who was desperate to do something to help."
Jake shook his head. "The real war happened when you weren't looking."
"Huh?"
"Courtney," Jake said. "The little girl who almost got hit by a car."
"What about her?" I asked.
"You saved her life," he said. "Moreover, you noted the bruise on her cheek—one she acquired from her abusive father. Your presence heightened her mother's response to the realization that her daughter was being abused. She moved out the next morning." He spread his hands. "In that moment, you saved the child's life, prevented her mother from alcohol addiction in response to the loss, and shattered a generational cycle of abuse more than three hundred years old."
"I ... um."
"Chuck the electrician," Jake continued. "He was drunk because he'd been fighting with his wife. Two months from now, their four-year-old daughter is going to be diagnosed with cancer and require a marrow transplant. Her father is the only viable donor. You saved his life with what you did—and his daughter's life, too. And the struggle that family is going to face together is going to leave them stronger and happier than they've ever been."
I grunted. "That smells an awful lot like predestination to me. What if those people choose something different?"
"It's a complex issue," Jake admitted. "But think of the course of the future as, oh, flowing water. If you know the lay of the land, you can make a good guess where it's going. Now, someone can always come along and dig a ditch and change that flow of water—but honestly, you'd be shocked how seldom people truly choose to exercise their will within their lives."
I grunted. "What about second baseperson Kelly? I saved her life, too?"
"No. But you made a young woman feel better in a moment where she felt as though she didn't have anyone she could talk to. Just a few kind words. But it's going to make her think about the difference those words made. She's got a good chance of winding up as a counselor to her fellow man. The five minutes of kindness you showed her is going to help thousands of others." He spread his hands. "And that only takes into account the past day. Despair and pain were averted, loss and tragedy thwarted. Do you think you haven't struck a blow for the light, Warrior?"
"Um . . ."
"And last but not least, let's not forget Michael," he said. "He's a good man, but where his children are involved, he can be completely irrational. He was a hairbreadth from losing control when he stood over Douglas on the beach. Your words, your presence, your will helped him to choose mercy over vengeance."
I just stared at him for a moment. "But . . . I didn't actually mean to do any of that."
He smiled. "But you chose the actions that led to it. No one forced you to do it. And to those people, what you did saved them from danger as real as any creature of the night." He turned to look down at the church below and pursed his lips. "People have far more power than they realize, if they would only choose to use it. Michael might not be cutting demons with a sword anymore, Harry. But don't think for a second that he isn't still fighting the good fight. It's just harder for you to see the results from down here."
I swigged more Scotch, thinking about that.
"He's happier now," I said. "His family, too."
"Funny how making good choices leads to that."
"What about Father Douglas?" I asked. "What's going to happen?"
"For the most part," Jake said, "that will be up to him. Hopefully, he'll choose to accept his errors and change his life for the better."
I nodded slowly. Then I said, "Let's talk about my bill."
Jake's eyebrows shot up. "What?"
"My bill," I said, enunciating. "You dragged me into this mess. You can pay me, same as any other client. Where do I send the invoice?"
"You're . . . you're trying to bill the Lord God Almighty?" Jake said, as if he couldn't quite believe it.
"Hel—uh, heck no," I said. "I'm billing you."
"That isn't really how we work."
"It is if you want to work with me," I told him, thrusting out my jaw. "Cough up. Otherwise, maybe next time I'll just stand around whistling when you want me to help you out."
Jake's face broadened into a wide, merry grin, and laughter filled his voice. "No, you won't," he said, and vanished.
I scowled ferociously at the empty space where he'd been a moment before. "Cheapskate," I muttered.
But I was pretty sure he was right.
"And you want an explanation of some kind?" asked a man seated in the pew beside me.
I just about jumped out of my skin.
He was an older man. He had dark skin and silver-white hair, and he wore a workman's blue jumpsuit, like you often see on janitors. The name tag read JAKE.
"You," I breathed. "You're the archangel. You're Uriel."
He shrugged. The gesture carried acknowledgment, somehow.
"What are you doing here?" I asked—maybe a bit blearily. I was concussed and half the flask was gone.
"Perhaps I'm a hallucination brought on by head trauma and alcohol," he said.
"Oh," I said. I peered at him, and then offered him the flask. "Want a belt?"
"Very kind," he said, and took a swig from the flask. He passed it back to me. "I don't exactly make it a habit to do this, but if you've got questions, ask them."
"Okay," I said. "Why did you guys let Michael get so screwed up?"
"We didn't let him do anything," Jake replied calmly. "He chose to hazard himself in battle against the enemy. The enemy chose to shoot him, and where to point the gun and when to pull the trigger. He survived the experience."
"So in other words, God was doing nothing to help."
Jake smiled. "Wouldn't say that. But you got to understand, son. God isn't about making good things happen to you, or bad things happen to you. He's all about you making choices—exercising the gift of free will. God wants you to have good things and a good life, but He won't gift wrap them for you. You have to choose the actions that lead you to that life."
"Free will, huh?"
"Yes. For example, your free will on that island."
I eyed him and sipped more Scotch.
"You saw the Valkyrie staring at Michael. You thought he was in danger. So even though it was your turn, you sent him up to the helicopter in your place."
"No good deed goes unpunished," I said, with one too many sh sounds. "That's where he got hurt."
Jake shrugged. "But if you hadn't, you'd have died in that harness, and he'd have died on that island."
I scowled. "What?"
Jake waved a hand. "I won't bore you with details, but suffice to say that your choice in that moment changed everything."
"But you lost a Knight," I said. "A warrior."
Jake smiled. "Did we?"
"He can barely walk without that cane. Sure, he handled Douglas, but that's a far cry from dealing with a Denarian."
"Ah," Jake said, "you mean warrior in the literal sense."
"What other kind of warrior is there?" I asked.
"The important kind."
I frowned again.
"Harry," Jake said, sighing. "The conflict between light and darkness rages on so many levels that you literally could not understand it all. Not yet, anyway. Sometimes that battlefield is a literal one. Sometimes it's a great deal more nebulous and metaphorical."
"But Michael and I are literal guys," I said.
Jake actually laughed. "Yeah? Do you think we angled to have you brought into this situation because we needed you to beat someone up?"
"Well. Generally speaking. Yeah." I gestured with the flask. "Pretty much all we did was beat up this guy who had good intentions and who was desperate to do something to help."
Jake shook his head. "The real war happened when you weren't looking."
"Huh?"
"Courtney," Jake said. "The little girl who almost got hit by a car."
"What about her?" I asked.
"You saved her life," he said. "Moreover, you noted the bruise on her cheek—one she acquired from her abusive father. Your presence heightened her mother's response to the realization that her daughter was being abused. She moved out the next morning." He spread his hands. "In that moment, you saved the child's life, prevented her mother from alcohol addiction in response to the loss, and shattered a generational cycle of abuse more than three hundred years old."
"I ... um."
"Chuck the electrician," Jake continued. "He was drunk because he'd been fighting with his wife. Two months from now, their four-year-old daughter is going to be diagnosed with cancer and require a marrow transplant. Her father is the only viable donor. You saved his life with what you did—and his daughter's life, too. And the struggle that family is going to face together is going to leave them stronger and happier than they've ever been."
I grunted. "That smells an awful lot like predestination to me. What if those people choose something different?"
"It's a complex issue," Jake admitted. "But think of the course of the future as, oh, flowing water. If you know the lay of the land, you can make a good guess where it's going. Now, someone can always come along and dig a ditch and change that flow of water—but honestly, you'd be shocked how seldom people truly choose to exercise their will within their lives."
I grunted. "What about second baseperson Kelly? I saved her life, too?"
"No. But you made a young woman feel better in a moment where she felt as though she didn't have anyone she could talk to. Just a few kind words. But it's going to make her think about the difference those words made. She's got a good chance of winding up as a counselor to her fellow man. The five minutes of kindness you showed her is going to help thousands of others." He spread his hands. "And that only takes into account the past day. Despair and pain were averted, loss and tragedy thwarted. Do you think you haven't struck a blow for the light, Warrior?"
"Um . . ."
"And last but not least, let's not forget Michael," he said. "He's a good man, but where his children are involved, he can be completely irrational. He was a hairbreadth from losing control when he stood over Douglas on the beach. Your words, your presence, your will helped him to choose mercy over vengeance."
I just stared at him for a moment. "But . . . I didn't actually mean to do any of that."
He smiled. "But you chose the actions that led to it. No one forced you to do it. And to those people, what you did saved them from danger as real as any creature of the night." He turned to look down at the church below and pursed his lips. "People have far more power than they realize, if they would only choose to use it. Michael might not be cutting demons with a sword anymore, Harry. But don't think for a second that he isn't still fighting the good fight. It's just harder for you to see the results from down here."
I swigged more Scotch, thinking about that.
"He's happier now," I said. "His family, too."
"Funny how making good choices leads to that."
"What about Father Douglas?" I asked. "What's going to happen?"
"For the most part," Jake said, "that will be up to him. Hopefully, he'll choose to accept his errors and change his life for the better."
I nodded slowly. Then I said, "Let's talk about my bill."
Jake's eyebrows shot up. "What?"
"My bill," I said, enunciating. "You dragged me into this mess. You can pay me, same as any other client. Where do I send the invoice?"
"You're . . . you're trying to bill the Lord God Almighty?" Jake said, as if he couldn't quite believe it.
"Hel—uh, heck no," I said. "I'm billing you."
"That isn't really how we work."
"It is if you want to work with me," I told him, thrusting out my jaw. "Cough up. Otherwise, maybe next time I'll just stand around whistling when you want me to help you out."
Jake's face broadened into a wide, merry grin, and laughter filled his voice. "No, you won't," he said, and vanished.
I scowled ferociously at the empty space where he'd been a moment before. "Cheapskate," I muttered.
But I was pretty sure he was right.
What you are missing, because its not really expanded on in the primary books, is that the battle between Heaven and Hell is only marginally fought on the level of the Swords. And because of that, I think you are making fundamental errors with regards to threat-assessment regarding the Coins, and what their role is in the setting.
Furthermore, Im going to point out that much of this ignores the metaplot of the Dresdenverse.
The stars are coming right, or wrong as the case might be, and a lot of Bad Shit is about to go down again as the Outsiders and everyone and everything else that has been watching the stars attempt to reshape the status quo.
Thats the endgame.
And in that fight even the Denarians generally dont appear to want the Outsiders inside Creation; Mab made a deal with Anduriel once for Nicodemus to command the defenses at the Gates.
That said, there is at least one Denarian that appears to be working with the Black Council, though we dont know which OOC or IC. Nicodemus thought it was either Tessa or Rosanna.
He could have been wrong though.
For reference:
Fallen power levels and just how ill-advised attempting to break a Coin is
Quote from: Bob on November 30, 2006, 09:31:59 PM
Well. Not quite freely, but MORE freely, certainly. The Fallen bound in the coins are the freaking elite of Hell–everyone the big D didn't want trying to stab him in the back, basically. If they were suddenly freed it would do all kinds of horrible things to about a million balances of power, with repercussions that would last for centuries.
Which assumes that they /can/ be destroyed. I mean, don't think that in 2,000 years, no one has ever TRIED it. And there are still thirty of them kicking around.
Which isn't necessarily to say that it's impossible. But it sure as Hell wouldn't be easy. And given that, while in the coins, they ARE effectively frozen in carbonite without a human agent to assist them, containment certainly seems to be a prudent course.
Funny you should mention that whole notion about redeeming Lasciel . . . >
Jim
2009 Lexington signing:
Q: Jim's favorite recurring villain?
A: Marcone, when he's being a villain. And Nicodemus, because he is pure evil.
Q: Why did the Denarians in Small Favor seem less powerful than in Death Masks?
A: If a Fallen has essentially overpowered their human host, then they have limited free will (they can't use the free will of the human); a Denarian is much more powerful if they use the human as a partner.
llen a
Q: Difference between the Fallen and other creatures from Hell?
A: Fallen are like corporate – they've got the backing of an organization.
Q: Jim's favorite recurring villain?
A: Marcone, when he's being a villain. And Nicodemus, because he is pure evil.
Q: Why did the Denarians in Small Favor seem less powerful than in Death Masks?
A: If a Fallen has essentially overpowered their human host, then they have limited free will (they can't use the free will of the human); a Denarian is much more powerful if they use the human as a partner.
llen a
Q: Difference between the Fallen and other creatures from Hell?
A: Fallen are like corporate – they've got the backing of an organization.
2011 Bitten by Books Q&A
Where are the coins kept? Does Father Forthill keep them at St. Mary's or are they sent to the Vatican?
Neither.
What's the range of influence for the Fallen in the coins? How far can they extend themselves away from their Denarian hosts?
Oh, their range is very, very limited, to this one little planet.
Where are the coins kept? Does Father Forthill keep them at St. Mary's or are they sent to the Vatican?
Neither.
What's the range of influence for the Fallen in the coins? How far can they extend themselves away from their Denarian hosts?
Oh, their range is very, very limited, to this one little planet.
Uriel Power Levels, and Why He Does Not Do Contested Violence
2010 Bitten by Books Q&A:
#180 "Could Uriel have chosen to help Harry if he had wanted to, or is there actually some universal limit that prevents him from directly influencing the world in such overt fashion?"
A little of both. Technically, it was /possible/ for Uriel to act directly, but the consequences would have been extreme, both for him and for the mortal world–to the point where you'd have to be moderately insane to do it. Or else, really, really committed to some kind of personal moral compass that was 90 degrees off true.
The last angel to do that is a little notorious.
#259 "Does the same apply to hellfire/soulfire. What would happen if Harry were to take up Lasciel's coin and then try to use soulfire and hellfire together? Would that result in Harry dying horribly?"
Those are different. They're really two sides of the same coin–but they can't really exist together like that. They aren't explosively reactive, but they aren't additive, either. Which one came into the person to be used would depend on the person who was using it, and what they were using it for.
Angelic types have access to both. Which one they use is partially what determines what /kind/ of angels they are. (Emphasis added)
===============
2012 Reddit AMA:
zebrake2010: When the skinwalker asked Harry who gifted him the life fire, Harry responded, "Doubt you know him. He've taken you out."[1] Were you foreshadowing that we will get to see Uriel[2] in actual combat at some point? (And if you weren't foreshadowing, well, will we get to see Uriel in combat anyway?[3] )
Jim: 1) A being like Uriel doesn't really do battle in the sense of contested violence. He just sort of thinks about annihilating galaxies and it happens. His battles are much more complicated than that, and involve things like choosing seven words very carefully, and handing off a few sparks of energy to the right person in the right place at the right time.
================
@longshotauthor In the Dresden Files, are the fallen 4.6 billion years old or approx 4000? Big bang vs God making everything really.
@GiftedMonster How do you know that before the Big Bang, God didn't say "Let there be light."
It's fantasy fiction, Ashely, not theology
@GiftedMonster Though for the record, the Dresden universe angels have been around since before time was a Thing. #TemporalHipsters
#180 "Could Uriel have chosen to help Harry if he had wanted to, or is there actually some universal limit that prevents him from directly influencing the world in such overt fashion?"
A little of both. Technically, it was /possible/ for Uriel to act directly, but the consequences would have been extreme, both for him and for the mortal world–to the point where you'd have to be moderately insane to do it. Or else, really, really committed to some kind of personal moral compass that was 90 degrees off true.
The last angel to do that is a little notorious.
#259 "Does the same apply to hellfire/soulfire. What would happen if Harry were to take up Lasciel's coin and then try to use soulfire and hellfire together? Would that result in Harry dying horribly?"
Those are different. They're really two sides of the same coin–but they can't really exist together like that. They aren't explosively reactive, but they aren't additive, either. Which one came into the person to be used would depend on the person who was using it, and what they were using it for.
Angelic types have access to both. Which one they use is partially what determines what /kind/ of angels they are. (Emphasis added)
===============
2012 Reddit AMA:
zebrake2010: When the skinwalker asked Harry who gifted him the life fire, Harry responded, "Doubt you know him. He've taken you out."[1] Were you foreshadowing that we will get to see Uriel[2] in actual combat at some point? (And if you weren't foreshadowing, well, will we get to see Uriel in combat anyway?[3] )
Jim: 1) A being like Uriel doesn't really do battle in the sense of contested violence. He just sort of thinks about annihilating galaxies and it happens. His battles are much more complicated than that, and involve things like choosing seven words very carefully, and handing off a few sparks of energy to the right person in the right place at the right time.
================
@longshotauthor In the Dresden Files, are the fallen 4.6 billion years old or approx 4000? Big bang vs God making everything really.
@GiftedMonster How do you know that before the Big Bang, God didn't say "Let there be light."
It's fantasy fiction, Ashely, not theology@GiftedMonster Though for the record, the Dresden universe angels have been around since before time was a Thing. #TemporalHipsters
Uriel is an executive vice-president of Creation
2011 NYC Signing Q&A
What, if anything, could threaten the Carpenter household right now?
Nuthin' much. Yeah, Michael's got a dozen angels on constant security detail. He's fine. There's one that goes with each kid when they go to school. It's ridiculous around there. And they've also got, you know, Mouse, there to keep track of things. Plus they've got like the biggest threshold in the entire WORLD for that kind of thing.
2011 Bitten by Books Q&A
Harry entered Michael Carpenter's house at the end of Ghost Story without an invitation. Was this because he was running around naked in his soul or because he previously had had invitations into the home? We note that Harry couldn't enter other homes earlier in the book but was that because he truly believed he was a ghost and knowing that a ghost can't cross a threshold his belief stopped him cold? (Extrapolating from the Leanansidhe's information that the only limits on Harry at this point are the ones he places on himself)
The presence of an Archangel, essentially an executive VP of Creation, probably had something to do with it.
What, if anything, could threaten the Carpenter household right now?
Nuthin' much. Yeah, Michael's got a dozen angels on constant security detail. He's fine. There's one that goes with each kid when they go to school. It's ridiculous around there. And they've also got, you know, Mouse, there to keep track of things. Plus they've got like the biggest threshold in the entire WORLD for that kind of thing.
2011 Bitten by Books Q&A
Harry entered Michael Carpenter's house at the end of Ghost Story without an invitation. Was this because he was running around naked in his soul or because he previously had had invitations into the home? We note that Harry couldn't enter other homes earlier in the book but was that because he truly believed he was a ghost and knowing that a ghost can't cross a threshold his belief stopped him cold? (Extrapolating from the Leanansidhe's information that the only limits on Harry at this point are the ones he places on himself)
The presence of an Archangel, essentially an executive VP of Creation, probably had something to do with it.
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demiurges Explicitly do not know anything about how to make a exalted. It is all Autocron, what the demiurges know is how to ring up Autocron, and he makes the exalted himself using them as meat puppets.
If it was that easy to make exalted the solars that's had mortal servants with 5 in every stat boosted by mutations, and other effects would have figured it out.
If it was that easy to make exalted the solars that's had mortal servants with 5 in every stat boosted by mutations, and other effects would have figured it out.
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The person responsible for it was almost certainly Merlin, after cutting out the jade keystone to make Demonreach.
BoredMan
Maintaining the Agenda is our top priority
Yeah, I'm willing to believe that he killed people to keep his secrets.
You are just mistaken.
The book is explicit that the Sodalities are trained and have to have knowledge to build the body in addition to whatever blessing they are channelling from Autobot.
I quote:
EXALTATION
The secret of Alchemical Exaltation is jealously guarded
by the Five Magnificent Sodalities of Penultimate Truth and
Intransigent Gospel, each of which possesses only a fifth of
the knowledge required to bring forth Champions of the
Machine God. Only by working together at the vats may new
Chosen be imbued with life and Exaltation, and only then
by unanimous vote of a National Tripartite Assembly.
The Pious Harvesters of the Hallowed Flesh know how
to create and process the alchemical broth in which the
bodies of the Exalted are cultured and catalyzed.
The Glorious Luminors of the Brilliant Rapture keep
the secret of the temperatures and cycles to which the broth
must be subjected for it to imbue its mystic benefi ts to the
nascent Exalt.
The Prolific Scholars of the Furnace Transcendent
understand the complex Essence technologies of the vari-
ous implants and Charms that grant the Alchemicals their
superhuman might, and it is they who forge those wonders
that will initially be incorporated into an Exalt's body.
The Meticulous Surgeons of the Body Electric are
trained in the all-important art of molding the flesh of the
Alchemical Exalted. They pack clay and wax and grease
around the implants of the Scholars, but this body is useless
without the Essence-catalyzing broth of the Harvesters or
the proper cultivation of the Luminors.
Finally, the Illustrious Conductors of the Consecrated
Veins alone understand how to properly affix a soulgem to
the Essence-infused frame the other Sodalities have crafted
and prepared.
These steps are not undertaken independently. Over the
course of eight months, the five Sodalities work together to
perform a complex ritual that joins enormous quantities of
the magical materials with exactingly machined parts, rare
clays and precisely brewed chemical concoctions to produce a
crude approximation of a human form. Next, in a painstaking
procedure requiring eight days to properly complete, a flawless
diamond soulgem is attached to the fi gure's brow. The valves
to the Exalt's Essence reservoir are then opened, and for the
next eight hours the Alchemical's Essence supply is ritually
purifi ed with repeated straining and efficacious prayers until
no contaminants remain. Finally, an elaborate prayer lasting
eight minutes joins magical materials, clay, brass, Essence
and soul together into a living being. The Alchemical's eyes
open, her personality catalyzes and solidifi es, and she rises
from the vats to begin her service to her nation.
The secret of Alchemical Exaltation is jealously guarded
by the Five Magnificent Sodalities of Penultimate Truth and
Intransigent Gospel, each of which possesses only a fifth of
the knowledge required to bring forth Champions of the
Machine God. Only by working together at the vats may new
Chosen be imbued with life and Exaltation, and only then
by unanimous vote of a National Tripartite Assembly.
The Pious Harvesters of the Hallowed Flesh know how
to create and process the alchemical broth in which the
bodies of the Exalted are cultured and catalyzed.
The Glorious Luminors of the Brilliant Rapture keep
the secret of the temperatures and cycles to which the broth
must be subjected for it to imbue its mystic benefi ts to the
nascent Exalt.
The Prolific Scholars of the Furnace Transcendent
understand the complex Essence technologies of the vari-
ous implants and Charms that grant the Alchemicals their
superhuman might, and it is they who forge those wonders
that will initially be incorporated into an Exalt's body.
The Meticulous Surgeons of the Body Electric are
trained in the all-important art of molding the flesh of the
Alchemical Exalted. They pack clay and wax and grease
around the implants of the Scholars, but this body is useless
without the Essence-catalyzing broth of the Harvesters or
the proper cultivation of the Luminors.
Finally, the Illustrious Conductors of the Consecrated
Veins alone understand how to properly affix a soulgem to
the Essence-infused frame the other Sodalities have crafted
and prepared.
These steps are not undertaken independently. Over the
course of eight months, the five Sodalities work together to
perform a complex ritual that joins enormous quantities of
the magical materials with exactingly machined parts, rare
clays and precisely brewed chemical concoctions to produce a
crude approximation of a human form. Next, in a painstaking
procedure requiring eight days to properly complete, a flawless
diamond soulgem is attached to the fi gure's brow. The valves
to the Exalt's Essence reservoir are then opened, and for the
next eight hours the Alchemical's Essence supply is ritually
purifi ed with repeated straining and efficacious prayers until
no contaminants remain. Finally, an elaborate prayer lasting
eight minutes joins magical materials, clay, brass, Essence
and soul together into a living being. The Alchemical's eyes
open, her personality catalyzes and solidifi es, and she rises
from the vats to begin her service to her nation.
There's a lot of human-accessible knowledge involved in building the body.
Else they wouldnt bother with secrecy.
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From that same book, they expliclty do not know anything about how to make an exalted, Only Autochthon does. They know how to ring up him up and have him make an exalted. Their puny mortal minds could not possibly understand the greatest feat of the greatest smith.
Alchemical Demiurge (Abomination): More than mere
combinations of souls and N/A-level artifacts, Autochthon's
Chosen are Exalted. The Essence technology that
enables the fusion of their spirits and bodies to create an
Exalt rather than a mere soul-bearing robot is as complicated
as any other Celestial Exaltation. The only being in
the Realm of Brass and Shadows who truly understands how
to create an Alchemical Exalt is Autochthon himself.
But the autonomic processes of his Design regularly
examine and select qualified individuals—these days,
always members of the five Sodalities with some form of
Craft rated at ••••+—and bestow this mutation upon
them. It transforms the mind and soul rather than the
body, creating a connection to the slumbering genius
of the Great Maker and allowing the Demiurge to share
Autochthon's nigh-unlimited cognitive bandwidth when
learning how to create Alchemical Exalted. This is how
a human mind comprehends and implements one-fifth
of the Alchemical Exaltation formula, and how a human
body's labors become a direct channel for the power of
the Machine God.
In his wisdom (and anger, and fear), Autochthon
bequeathed the secret of Exaltation to the mortals dwelling
within his world-body… and none other. Not only
are Exalted forbidden from ever obtaining this mutation
by any means, but even God-Blooded are never considered
valid candidates for Demiurge status. Attempts to
interrogate a Demiurge or read his mind are doomed to
failure—the mortal himself only fractionally comprehends
the work of which he is capable, with the vast majority
of his knowledge distributed throughout the crystalline
Core of Autochthon. Likewise, watching a group of
Sodalts at work creating an Alchemical is as fruitless as
observing Lytek polishing and recycling an Exaltation
(a task that was undertaken hundreds of times over the
course of the First Age, to little benefit). The process is
merely a technological ritual permitting the Great Maker's
animating power to flow through the Demiurges and into
the nascent Exalt.
Ultimately, a Twilight who wants to create Alchemicals
will have to force mortals to do so, probably at
sword point. The Great Maker, in the moments when he
was able to bring himself to contemplate such a terrible
eventuality, considered that theoretical Solar's endless
frustration to be just punishment for the betrayal of the
Mountain Folk.
combinations of souls and N/A-level artifacts, Autochthon's
Chosen are Exalted. The Essence technology that
enables the fusion of their spirits and bodies to create an
Exalt rather than a mere soul-bearing robot is as complicated
as any other Celestial Exaltation. The only being in
the Realm of Brass and Shadows who truly understands how
to create an Alchemical Exalt is Autochthon himself.
But the autonomic processes of his Design regularly
examine and select qualified individuals—these days,
always members of the five Sodalities with some form of
Craft rated at ••••+—and bestow this mutation upon
them. It transforms the mind and soul rather than the
body, creating a connection to the slumbering genius
of the Great Maker and allowing the Demiurge to share
Autochthon's nigh-unlimited cognitive bandwidth when
learning how to create Alchemical Exalted. This is how
a human mind comprehends and implements one-fifth
of the Alchemical Exaltation formula, and how a human
body's labors become a direct channel for the power of
the Machine God.
In his wisdom (and anger, and fear), Autochthon
bequeathed the secret of Exaltation to the mortals dwelling
within his world-body… and none other. Not only
are Exalted forbidden from ever obtaining this mutation
by any means, but even God-Blooded are never considered
valid candidates for Demiurge status. Attempts to
interrogate a Demiurge or read his mind are doomed to
failure—the mortal himself only fractionally comprehends
the work of which he is capable, with the vast majority
of his knowledge distributed throughout the crystalline
Core of Autochthon. Likewise, watching a group of
Sodalts at work creating an Alchemical is as fruitless as
observing Lytek polishing and recycling an Exaltation
(a task that was undertaken hundreds of times over the
course of the First Age, to little benefit). The process is
merely a technological ritual permitting the Great Maker's
animating power to flow through the Demiurges and into
the nascent Exalt.
Ultimately, a Twilight who wants to create Alchemicals
will have to force mortals to do so, probably at
sword point. The Great Maker, in the moments when he
was able to bring himself to contemplate such a terrible
eventuality, considered that theoretical Solar's endless
frustration to be just punishment for the betrayal of the
Mountain Folk.
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That is just you misreading the mutation text.
The people who awaken the Exalt channel the Great Maker's genius to instantiate a new Exalt.
But everything else, from building the body to preparing it to receive a soulgem to translating Charm designs to clay and Essence and metals is knowledge. Its there in the text.
The Sodalities exist as part of the Exalt support structure because they pass down knowledge and training.
Else there would be no need for them, and their training.
And they wouldnt have such a central role in Autochtonian society.
If you actually read the text especially these parts.
the mortal himself only fractionally comprehends the work of which he is capable, with the vast majority of his knowledge distributed throughout the crystalline Core of Autochthon.
It clearly states the mortal does not understand or even have an actual idea of how exalted work. The Sodalities only know how to call up Autochthon to active the charms to make an exalt.
And while the Sodalities are gifted craftters that is not a requirement it Autochthon innate basis
autonomic processes of his Design regularly examine and select qualified individuals—these days, always members of the five Sodalities with some form of Craft rated at ••••+—and bestow this mutation upon them.
The do not get the mutation just for being a Sodalities. They become Sodalities because they got chosen to replace the last one. This is no different from making a godblooded.
No, you are (intentionally or not) misreading the text I quoted. Autochton (or his automatic processes) is the being who makes alchemical exaltations. Sodalites use specific ritual (the process of making an alchemical) to invoke him and cause him to make one. But the actual burden of making is on him.
We seem to be using different definition of the word Primordial. You seem to use it to refer to a list of specific beings. I am using it to refer to class of beings. We are already a Devil-Tiger, if a baby one / gestating one.
In ExvsWoD all Infernals enjoy the effect of The Tempest of Inward Focus and partial effects of the The Flame of the Rising Phoenix (the caste dissolving charms). We have already started designing custom charms, which if the full effect of the Flame of the Rising Phoenix.
The Thousand and the First Hell charm is pretty much The Spirit of the Living World, only even more advanced, as we can physically travel to our internal world, and take things outside. The clone charm in the form we made it is the Path of a Thousand Whispers.
De facto we have taken most applicable Devil Tiger ascension charms, and this has been reflected in the text of the quest. Molly is a Devil Tiger (transPrimordial) already, if a baby one.
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Yes. And none of this indicates that this is beyond the scope of Primordials at all.
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I read the text, it says most of this knowledge is not in their head but in Autochton's core and they just have some access.
So, in light of my updated understanding on precedents of steering the exaltations, an updated plan on how to ensure things go smoothly:
1) Secure the exaltations - at minimum this means decoys, perfect effect defenses and stealth, security forces, both mortal-ish and spiritual.
2) Study the exaltations. This means learning their targeting parameters, learning their history (would an exaltation count as an archive for Akashic Root Methodology purposes? I get a feeling that with a special reader they might), learning the history of their holders, etc. At this point we learn if the solar exaltation is affected by "should the sun not rise"
3) Check if the exaltations are under any active divine authority right now. Ie "is Lytek or a heir of Lytek currently alive". If the position is vacant, craft the god of exaltations. They are not going to be anywhere near as good as Lytek, but would still be helpful.
4) For the abyssal shard, see if the targeting systems used by Deathlords still exist in some form.
*) If we get the lunar shard from the ocean, see if Luna is still active in any way, shape (hah!) or form. Be very afraid if she is.
5) Get VEE to grant Destiny background of "will exalt with this specific shard" to the selected mortal. It would only be 1 dot, but it would still weight the odds.
5*) See if there's anyone with a Destiny background "will exalt" already in the world. This is probably done via astrology. Another reason to study it. If there are, befriend or neutralize them as a precaution.
6) Make a splendor to synergize with Destiny background. While normally Invincible Assertion affects attribute + ability rolls, I think it can be reasoned that a special splendor could be made for a Destiny background roll. Pay additionally by artificially raising its value by one dot, and making it a one time only thing (ie it disintegrates after one use), and make it with Invincible Assertion + Mystic Fortification. This would normally be a 2 dot splendor. Saying that it normally costs as a 4 dot splendor (3 with our forge) + is destroyed after one use is more than enough, I feel, to justify this being used on a Destiny Background roll. This ensures at least one success on a roll for destiny to ensure the circumstances for exaltation with this specific shard for this specific mortal.
7) Make a localized area which the exaltation cannot leave, essentially a circle to temporarily trap the released exaltation in, so it can only select from those inside the circle. This might be more doable with fae help, but we can most likely do this on our own.
8) Get Prayer Eating up to 4 dots. Use a combination of Prayer Eating and Fulfill Prayer to have 5 billion souls pray for the success of the chosen mortal's exaltation.
8) Get fortune path, bless the mortal to be exalted with fortune, have the god of exaltations bless them, put them inside the circle, use the splendor on them, release the shard. This has to be done with two shards at the same time.
8*) If we get Prayer Eating, then stack Fulfill Prayer on top of this, by having our followers pray for our success.
9) Have at least two crown foci prepared to track the exaltation hosts if the preparations fail. Immediately travel to them, and be the first on the ground to either talk them into joining our side, or to put them down.
It is a lot of work, but I feel the odds in this case nearly guarantee success in at least some form, and strongly mitigate the risks and consequences of failure. It also builds up a lot of the infrastructure that's useful in general, like the god of exaltation, VEE, prayer eating.
1) Secure the exaltations - at minimum this means decoys, perfect effect defenses and stealth, security forces, both mortal-ish and spiritual.
2) Study the exaltations. This means learning their targeting parameters, learning their history (would an exaltation count as an archive for Akashic Root Methodology purposes? I get a feeling that with a special reader they might), learning the history of their holders, etc. At this point we learn if the solar exaltation is affected by "should the sun not rise"
3) Check if the exaltations are under any active divine authority right now. Ie "is Lytek or a heir of Lytek currently alive". If the position is vacant, craft the god of exaltations. They are not going to be anywhere near as good as Lytek, but would still be helpful.
4) For the abyssal shard, see if the targeting systems used by Deathlords still exist in some form.
*) If we get the lunar shard from the ocean, see if Luna is still active in any way, shape (hah!) or form. Be very afraid if she is.
5) Get VEE to grant Destiny background of "will exalt with this specific shard" to the selected mortal. It would only be 1 dot, but it would still weight the odds.
5*) See if there's anyone with a Destiny background "will exalt" already in the world. This is probably done via astrology. Another reason to study it. If there are, befriend or neutralize them as a precaution.
6) Make a splendor to synergize with Destiny background. While normally Invincible Assertion affects attribute + ability rolls, I think it can be reasoned that a special splendor could be made for a Destiny background roll. Pay additionally by artificially raising its value by one dot, and making it a one time only thing (ie it disintegrates after one use), and make it with Invincible Assertion + Mystic Fortification. This would normally be a 2 dot splendor. Saying that it normally costs as a 4 dot splendor (3 with our forge) + is destroyed after one use is more than enough, I feel, to justify this being used on a Destiny Background roll. This ensures at least one success on a roll for destiny to ensure the circumstances for exaltation with this specific shard for this specific mortal.
7) Make a localized area which the exaltation cannot leave, essentially a circle to temporarily trap the released exaltation in, so it can only select from those inside the circle. This might be more doable with fae help, but we can most likely do this on our own.
8) Get Prayer Eating up to 4 dots. Use a combination of Prayer Eating and Fulfill Prayer to have 5 billion souls pray for the success of the chosen mortal's exaltation.
8) Get fortune path, bless the mortal to be exalted with fortune, have the god of exaltations bless them, put them inside the circle, use the splendor on them, release the shard. This has to be done with two shards at the same time.
8*) If we get Prayer Eating, then stack Fulfill Prayer on top of this, by having our followers pray for our success.
9) Have at least two crown foci prepared to track the exaltation hosts if the preparations fail. Immediately travel to them, and be the first on the ground to either talk them into joining our side, or to put them down.
It is a lot of work, but I feel the odds in this case nearly guarantee success in at least some form, and strongly mitigate the risks and consequences of failure. It also builds up a lot of the infrastructure that's useful in general, like the god of exaltation, VEE, prayer eating.
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Vote closed, lets see if this works.
Excellency is not passing the mark, but would at least the stunt be used?
EDIT: Also, wait, the tally is broken. At least some people voted by name.