Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

I was addressing the second part of your quote I should have cut or quoted better there. Harry is prone to just using his sight how are the hell he feels like it but it's his so the only one who has a problem with it is him.
I don't recall how we went about that but I highly doubt it can be applied to him using the Sight in general and wasn't a specific case since the one being observed (Molly) didn't want him to take SAN damage from it. We do have a problem with him possibly screwing up his mind in a permanent fashion that's why this is a vote.
 
I don't recall how we went about that but I highly doubt it can be applied to him using the Sight in general and wasn't a specific case since the one being observed (Molly) didn't want him to take SAN damage from it. We do have a problem with him possibly screwing up his mind in a permanent fashion that's why this is a vote.
Harry at this point has used his Sight on both Mab and Titania and in the course of this Quest the inside of an exaltation. I'm just highly doubting this cave wall's ability to inflict sanity damage any more than all three of those things definitely should have.
 
Harry at this point has used his Sight on both Mab and Titania and in the course of this Quest the inside of an exaltation. I'm just highly doubting this cave wall's ability to inflict sanity damage any more than all three of those things definitely should have.
Saying it's just a cave wall is a bit misleading. It looks like some significant level of craft went on here which is where the risk factor comes from. Fair point about Mab and Titania at the stone table but I don't think the danger of the Sight comes from the 'power level' of things it seems to moreso be an issue of the 'true nature' of whatever it is your looking at. These two things often coincide but there seems to be an important distinction here.
 
Molly is a newborn trans-primordial. This is her manifestation. If anything, it's worse than peeking at one.
1) She is not.
She CAN be. But just like not all Infernals in Exalted 2E take Howl of the Devil-Tiger, Molly has not yet reached the point where she can take that step, or choose to do so.

If this was true, the Merlin looking at Molly with his spell would have hurt him. Every time Molly flares her anima, people with supernatural senses would flinch.
He currently has knowledge and insight that canon Dresden never gets. Like instructions on how to use the Sight safely when gazing at stuff like Exaltations.
He currently lacks knowledge and insight that canon Dresden acquires.
You're looking at a middle schooler who has done some college-level math, and then extrapolating that to a claim that they are capable of doing all college-level classes.

Dresden is ahead of where he was at this point in canon. He isnt that far ahead.

Just witnessing supernatural shit does not automatically translate to your being better at comprehension or knowledge or practice, else Dresden would have become an archmage after seeing Summer and Winter clash in Summer Knight.
Or after seeing Cowl attempt the Darkhallow two years ago.

Exaltations are some of the scariest things in the cosmos one could behold. They are the weapons made to defeat Primordials.
There is no narrative or contexual evidence for this claim.
Mortals used to literally build and activate Alchemical Exalts in Autochtonia without SAN loss whatsoever, and were responsible for upgrading them whenever they rose in Essence.

Lytek used to store Solar Exaltations in his cupboard in Yu-Shan.
 
[X] Use both
-[X] First the Sight, to get the broader context
-[X] Then the Crown Question, to get deeper understanding
--[X] Use Occult Excellency, All Things Betray and BSM to better understand what you see
 
@DragonParadox Errors.
I have this chance, this still small chance, a spark caught still burning in my hand to make it so no no one
Dad at least has seen him in sanctuary, but your mother never had.
I think Sanctuary is supposed to be capitalized since it's the name of a place in this instance.

Of course it will change things, I 'll make a better plan if I find out what went wrong in the past,"
While part of you wants to dectry that as reactive, one must admit the only reason you are seeking out those insights is that they have not wholly failed against beings with resources and knowledge far beyond their own. For now, until Tiffany comes home to help break the news to Harry you descent into the Last Station were Maker of Immaculate Relics Untarnished, Miru, as the emerald green name tag proclaimed her,had already been working to transform what had been an island of comfort and security in Undertown into something altogether more ambitious, a dream of lighting and brass, singing in harmony.
 
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[X] Use both
-[X] First the Sight, to get the broader context
-[X] Then the Crown Question, to get deeper understanding
--[X] Use Occult Excellency, All Things Betray and BSM to better understand what you see
 
God was foiled by iron chariots and Jesus was killed by mortal men with a wooden spear if we're just going to reduce shit down to its most basic points let's just go with the most reductionist point available right.
God was not foiled by iron chariots. 😂 Its a hilarious image, but its on its own face not true.
Similarly, Jesus submitted himself, he wasnt taken against his will.
That was the whole point of his being there in the first place.

Lytek, OTOH, literally used to keep Solar Exaltations in his cupboard because they would return there to be cleaned of excess Past Life memories on occasion.
Something he used to do.

Which was how the Sidereals managed to steal and trap them in the first place before chucking them in the Jade Vault and stashing them at the bottom of the sea.
 
God was not foiled by iron chariots. 😂 Its a hilarious image, but its on its own face not true.
Similarly, Jesus submitted himself, he wasnt taken against his will.
That was the whole point of his being there in the first place.

Lytek, OTOH, literally used to keep Solar Exaltations in his cupboard because they would return there to be cleaned of excess Past Life memories on occasion.
Something he used to do.

Which was how the Sidereals managed to steal and trap them in the first place before chucking them in the Jade Vault and stashing them at the bottom of the sea.
Even with the most charitable reading of Judges 1:19 means a tribe in the direct service of God could not overwhelm a people with iron chariots that happened to live on Hills. In the least charitable it says he is incapable of removing the people because they have iron chariots. Which even in the most charitable interpretations still means God was foiled by iron chariots.

Your point about the cabinet doesn't make sense in context neither the Demiurges that make the Alchemicals or Lytek know how exaltation works. The only people that do maybe are Sol and Autocthon. Cleaning the soul crust off the edge of a shell doesn't actually tell you how the thing functions which considering Lytek could tell something was wrong with them but had no ability to fix it whatsoever you should tell you exactly how much he knew about the internal workings of exaltation. Never mind the fact even Auto was confused and surprised by how well they function and he's the one who fucking made the things.
 
@DragonParadox : Was just reading Demon the Fallen again (wish I could copy paste) and can Tiffany hear her name? According to the book demons can hear their name at any distance and if they make a faith roll as difficulty 7 or 6 roll (for celestial or true name which I have no idea what that means in this context)
One Success : The Demon gets a mental picture of the person saying their name.
Two Successes : Mental picture immediate surroundings and and picture of who the speaker are talking to.
Three or more Successes : All the above and the demon can listen to what the speaker says as long as they keep focusing on them. Although they can only hear the person who said their name if there is a conversation.

Incidentally on the topic of how the coins stay in circulation the Torment version of Lamp of Faith (lore of Celestials 1) should generally mean that the Fallen can detect the location of a all the other coins wherever they are. So they can't exactly be hidden. Also likely helps them coordinate.
 
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@DragonParadox : Was just reading Demon the Fallen again (wish I could copy paste) and can Tiffany hear her name? According to the book demons can hear their name at any distance and if they make a faith roll as difficulty 7 or 6 roll (for celestial or true name which I have no idea what that means in this context)
One Success : The Demon gets a mental picture of the person saying their name.
Two Successes : Mental picture immediate surroundings and and picture of who the speaker are talking to.
Three or more Successes : All the above and the demon can listen to what the speaker says as long as they keep focusing on them. Although they can only hear the person who said their name if there is a conversation.

Tiffany's true name would be an Enochian mark like the one on the coin subtly changed or fractured, but she does not know how or what it might be. That said if someone invoked by that somehow she could hear it at distance yes.
 
Demons' sensory powers are bullshit. And can be horribly abused to create a totalitarian regime with demons at the helm...That's literally what my last GM did on the world of darkness...Although I will say he was definitely biased in favor of demons.
 
Demons' sensory powers are bullshit. And can be horribly abused to create a totalitarian regime with demons at the helm...That's literally what my last GM did on the world of darkness...Although I will say he was definitely biased in favor of demons.
They do get quite a few of them, but in general the sensory powers are much less useful in general for a high torment demon. Usually makes it so their senses only detect evil stuff of one sort or another. Which is useful for finding bad coin holders and general minions.
 
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There is no narrative or contexual evidence for this claim.
Mortals used to literally build and activate Alchemical Exalts in Autochtonia without SAN loss whatsoever, and were responsible for upgrading them whenever they rose in Essence.

Lytek used to store Solar Exaltations in his cupboard in Yu-Shan.
Autochton puppeting specifically bred soul and body mutants used to build and activate Alchemical Exalts, and even he couldn't (or didn't) fit all mutations into one gene and soul line.
1) She is not.
She CAN be. But just like not all Infernals in Exalted 2E take Howl of the Devil-Tiger, Molly has not yet reached the point where she can take that step, or choose to do so.

If this was true, the Merlin looking at Molly with his spell would have hurt him. Every time Molly flares her anima, people with supernatural senses would flinch.
Assuming that Merlin's magic touched Molly-the-Primordial, and not Molly the avatar. Molly being her world soul has already been established, her greater self is a thing.
He currently lacks knowledge and insight that canon Dresden acquires.
You're looking at a middle schooler who has done some college-level math, and then extrapolating that to a claim that they are capable of doing all college-level classes.

Dresden is ahead of where he was at this point in canon. He isnt that far ahead.

Just witnessing supernatural shit does not automatically translate to your being better at comprehension or knowledge or practice, else Dresden would have become an archmage after seeing Summer and Winter clash in Summer Knight.
Or after seeing Cowl attempt the Darkhallow two years ago.
I specifically provided citations where it says that witnessing Molly's Becoming had consequences. He has Crown-gathered knowledge on how to make Sight safer - that's as much safety as knowledge can grant him, Crown is a perfect effect this way. He had experience with Source Code Compliance Protocol, Molly's exaltation, Molly's Soul, Tiffany, etc. He is much more knowledgeable in relevant areas than he was in canon, and not just at this point of time, I would argue.
 
Even with the most charitable reading of Judges 1:19 means a tribe in the direct service of God could not overwhelm a people with iron chariots that happened to live on Hills. In the least charitable it says he is incapable of removing the people because they have iron chariots. Which even in the most charitable interpretations still means God was foiled by iron chariots.

Your point about the cabinet doesn't make sense in context neither the Demiurges that make the Alchemicals or Lytek know how exaltation works. The only people that do maybe are Sol and Autocthon. Cleaning the soul crust off the edge of a shell doesn't actually tell you how the thing functions which considering Lytek could tell something was wrong with them but had no ability to fix it whatsoever you should tell you exactly how much he knew about the internal workings of exaltation. Never mind the fact even Auto was confused and surprised by how well they function and he's the one who fucking made the things.
Yes. And? The exact quote at the beginning of the chapter is:
Now after the death of Joshua it came to pass, that the children of Israel asked the Lord, saying, Who shall go up for us against the Canaanites first, to fight against them?

2 And the Lord said, Judah shall go up: behold, I have delivered the land into his hand.
The phrasing used there is not: you shall wipe out everyone.
And they didnt. There's multiple peoples in the chapter that they either lived with, or subjugated as tributaries.



Coming back to the Dresdenverse?
Knights bearing Swords have regularly lost to Denarians in this series.
On screen, even; Harry had to carry Michael's body when he ran away from their first encounter.

Same with the second encounter, when Michael's body was carried off by helicopter where, as he was retreating with Marcone and the Archive, Tessa shows up and empties an AK mag into his torso.
It wasnt until the events of Skin Game that the Denarians have been the ones to retreat from a major confrontation.

Nicodemus has literally killed every Knight that has come after him besides Michael and Sanya.
Noone has seriously made the claim that it means the White God is impotent because mortals he blessed to act have failed or been killed.
Your point about the cabinet doesn't make sense in context neither the Demiurges that make the Alchemicals or Lytek know how exaltation works. The only people that do maybe are Sol and Autocthon. Cleaning the soul crust off the edge of a shell doesn't actually tell you how the thing functions which considering Lytek could tell something was wrong with them but had no ability to fix it whatsoever you should tell you exactly how much he knew about the internal workings of exaltation. Never mind the fact even Auto was confused and surprised by how well they function and he's the one who fucking made the things.
That has nothing to do with this.

The claim made, with no evidence, was that Exaltations were the most dangerous/deadly things to sense.
I proceed to point out that, regardless of their complexity and sensitivity, people of all tiers of power, from Incarna to high rank Gods to mortals regularly perceive them without harm in Creation.

They might not understand them, or know how to replicate them, but they perceive them just fine.


Autochton puppeting specifically bred soul and body mutants used to build and activate Alchemical Exalts, and even he couldn't (or didn't) fit all mutations into one gene and soul line.
Autochton EXPLICITLY does not puppet people.
The Design, Autochton's Loom selects qualified people who it bestows the Alchemical Demiurge mutation on, and its a mind and soul thing. But it doesnt control them.

But none of the other people who are there have any trouble looking at the work being done.
Nor do any people who design the Charms(yes, anyone with Craft 3 can design an Alchemical Charm) have any trouble with that either.

Exaltations just dont work that way on most people's perceptions.
Assuming that Merlin's magic touched Molly-the-Primordial, and not Molly the avatar. Molly being her world soul has already been established, her greater self is a thing.
There is no evidence that Molly the Primordial is (currently) a thing.
She is an Infernal Exalt. And Arthur Langtry got a close enough look at her to describe her as fundamentally human; I quote:
Fortunately Harry does not notice the look his superior had given him which keeps the embarrassment to manageable levels as Langtry proclaims: "Well you are certainly human in a fundamental sense Ms Carpenter, the power you bear feels like sponsored magic only you are sponsoring yourself, odd as the notion sounds, a shard of fractured divinity orbiting a human soul..."
Molly owning a Hell doesnt make her a Primordial.
Molly's soul(s) getting funky doesnt make her a Primordial.

I specifically provided citations where it says that witnessing Molly's Becoming had consequences. He has Crown-gathered knowledge on how to make Sight safer - that's as much safety as knowledge can grant him, Crown is a perfect effect this way. He had experience with Source Code Compliance Protocol, Molly's exaltation, Molly's Soul, Tiffany, etc. He is much more knowledgeable in relevant areas than he was in canon, and not just at this point of time, I would argue.
And I have pointed out that Molly Became an Exalt. Not a Primordial.
Molly is not the first, or only heavy hitter to make his acquaintance.
None of the previous automatically changed him either.

Even the Safer Sight technique is a mortal thing we copied from memories of other wizards teaching the same thing to each other; its not some fundamentally unique technique we created, nor is there any suggestion that it removes risk.



As of this point in canon and in this AU, Dresden has seen the Stone Table, the fundamental fulcrum of change between the Fae Courts. He's met the Mothers in their home, and every other serving Queen. He's perceived Summer and Winter in conflict. He's met a Walker. Twice. Lived with a Shadow in his head for more than a year and half.

He has seen all three Swords unsheathed in anger. Visited Winter's Heart, and wielded Summer's Fire.
He has read the Darkhallow and understands it, and he was at the epicenter of the last attempt to use it.
None of those events translates to enlightenment, or knowledge.

You are significantly overrating the impact of one Celestial Exalt on his development, and worse, forgetting how wizards work.

They arent sorcerers or Exalts. They dont gain power by moments of insight or because they were sitting next to people of Power, else Elaine Mallory who was apparently adopted by Summer Lady Aurora would be a vastly stronger mage than Harry, instead of just his peer as she has been since childhood.

They are people of knowledge. They study. They gain experience.
Harry's gotten more of some knowledge than he has in canon, but he does not have the broadbased foundation that takes years and decades to build.

And he learns at a human rate. Not at Exalted rates.
Except when plot dictates otherwise, of course :V
 
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I want to say that bringing the Bible into this isn't helpful, but unfortunately Jim Butcher started it. Which then brings all the thousands of different sects, denominations and contradictions into our world building as well as making any choice wrong. I don't see any way to resolve the problem cleanly.
 
Autochton EXPLICITLY does not puppet people.
The Design, Autochton's Loom selects qualified people who it bestows the Alchemical Demiurge mutation on, and its a mind and soul thing. But it doesnt control them.

But none of the other people who are there have any trouble looking at the work being done.
Nor do any people who design the Charms(yes, anyone with Craft 3 can design an Alchemical Charm) have any trouble with that either.

Exaltations just dont work that way on most people's perceptions.
Here, direct quote:
Alchemical Demiurge (Abomination): More than mere
combinations of souls and N/A-level artifacts, Autochthon's
Chosen are Exalted. The Essence technology that
enables the fusion of their spirits and bodies to create an
Exalt rather than a mere soul-bearing robot is as complicated
as any other Celestial Exaltation. The only being in
the Realm of Brass and Shadows who truly understands how
to create an Alchemical Exalt is Autochthon himself.
But the autonomic processes of his Design regularly
examine and select qualified individuals—these days,
always members of the five Sodalities with some form of
Craft rated at ••••+—and bestow this mutation upon
them. It transforms the mind and soul rather than the
body, creating a connection to the slumbering genius
of the Great Maker and allowing the Demiurge to share
Autochthon's nigh-unlimited cognitive bandwidth when
learning how to create Alchemical Exalted. This is how
a human mind comprehends and implements one-fifth
of the Alchemical Exaltation formula, and how a human
body's labors become a direct channel for the power of
the Machine God.
In his wisdom (and anger, and fear), Autochthon
bequeathed the secret of Exaltation to the mortals dwelling
within his world-body… and none other. Not only
are Exalted forbidden from ever obtaining this mutation
by any means, but even God-Blooded are never considered
valid candidates for Demiurge status. Attempts to
interrogate a Demiurge or read his mind are doomed to
failure—the mortal himself only fractionally comprehends
the work of which he is capable, with the vast majority
of his knowledge distributed throughout the crystalline
Core of Autochthon. Likewise, watching a group of
Sodalts at work creating an Alchemical is as fruitless as
observing Lytek polishing and recycling an Exaltation
(a task that was undertaken hundreds of times over the
course of the First Age, to little benefit). The process is
merely a technological ritual permitting the Great Maker's
animating power to flow through the Demiurges and into
the nascent Exalt.
Ultimately, a Twilight who wants to create Alchemicals
will have to force mortals to do so, probably at
sword point. The Great Maker, in the moments when he
was able to bring himself to contemplate such a terrible
eventuality, considered that theoretical Solar's endless
frustration to be just punishment for the betrayal of the
Mountain Folk.
1) Autochton makes alchemical exaltations, the sodalites merely do a ritual to channel his power
2) Alchemical exaltations have specific perception blocks around them
There is no evidence that Molly the Primordial is (currently) a thing.
She is an Infernal Exalt. And Arthur Langtry got a close enough look at her to describe her as fundamentally human; I quote:
Molly owning a Hell doesnt make her a Primordial.
Molly's soul(s) getting funky doesnt make her a Primordial.
No, you are just ignoring it. Molly being a primordial doesn't stop her from being a human. That's one of the advantages of being a devil tiger.
And I have pointed out that Molly Became an Exalt. Not a Primordial.
You either didn't read what I quoted, or are misreading it. I don't see a point of further discussion here, if you are going to be ignoring direct citations.
 
The soul body charm that makes a new hell is explicitly a Primoridals only charm. The fact Molly can use it, while remaining human is a feature. GM already explicitly clarified that charm could only be taken, because a prior holder of the exaltation did use the devil-tiger charm.
 
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