Ah right, misremembered that. Then it would take a splendor then to try to copy Black Mirror Incarnation.
Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)
- Thread starter DragonParadox
- Start date
- Crossover Fantasy
Ah right, misremembered that. Then it would take a splendor then to try to copy Black Mirror Incarnation.
- Pronouns
- She/Her
[x] You think he's missing something, this daring plan, wagering to knock Nocedemus out of the game, it isn't a Lasciel move at all. It's the kind of plan Harry Dresden might come up with. The Shadow of a Fallen Tiffany may have been, but she was cast upon a mortal soul
[X] He is too used to enemy having information supremacy. Create layers of obfuscation regarding the identities of the knights, their goals, and their means, such as the possibility of them going after other divine artifacts, and use the Crown to gain insight into what the enemy knows of your plans
[X] He is too used to enemy having information supremacy. Create layers of obfuscation regarding the identities of the knights, their goals, and their means, such as the possibility of them going after other divine artifacts, and use the Crown to gain insight into what the enemy knows of your plans
This isnt true, by the way, and will immediately ring false to Michael's ears.
Denarians generally do not enjoy information supremacy over Knights on the job.
Knights get everything from hunches to odd smells to actual prophecies; when they actually need information to do their jobs, its there.
Do you remember Shiro finding Nicodemus and Dresden after Nicky kidnapped Harry in Death Masks?
In the middle of the city of Chicago? Or again, the Knights knowing where Ursiel would be and showing up in just the right spot to stop Ursiel turning Dresden into sashimi?
Hell, Shiro found Sanya literally just after he dropped his Coin, in the middle of Europe.
Whenever the Denarians have something major planned, the Knights suddenly develop plans to show up in the region, sometimes days in advance, and there's always information available to them.
Thats part of the whole Mysterious Ways thing the White God's people have going.
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Knights enjoy mysterious ways support. But they don't get fed actual intelligence. They don't get to plan around denarians knowing what denarians know. That's what I meant by information supremacy.
Yes they do, actually.
The beginning of the Death Masks book is that they received a direct prophecy.
They dont always get fed intelligence, mind, but when its necessary, they get it directly or indirectly from Home Office.
When its not? They go on faith, and then they get "feelings" and "nudges" and "coincidences".
They dont function the way armies do, as a deliberate choice by the White God's guys.
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BoredMan
Maintaining the Agenda is our top priority
@DragonParadox You missed the errors.
Again, not what I am talking about. Knights don't get to know what denarians know, what their plans are, what intelligence they have.
Fixed, thanks again.
BoredMan
Maintaining the Agenda is our top priority
We only have the one Crown focus for the Denarians right? The place Harry buried Lashiel's coin. Any planning will have to be done via telepathy and inside the Five Courts.
[X] You think he's missing something, this daring plan, wagering to knock Nocedemus out of the game, it isn't a Lasciel move at all. It's the kind of plan Harry Dresden might come up with. The Shadow of a Fallen Tiffany may have been, but she was cast upon a mortal soul
Edit: Oh and Tiffany counts as a Lashiel focus I suppose.
[X] You think he's missing something, this daring plan, wagering to knock Nocedemus out of the game, it isn't a Lasciel move at all. It's the kind of plan Harry Dresden might come up with. The Shadow of a Fallen Tiffany may have been, but she was cast upon a mortal soul
Edit: Oh and Tiffany counts as a Lashiel focus I suppose.
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You could also use Michael for a Denarian focus, he has spent enough time hunting them that he counts as one degree of separation from them and it would not be breaking your word to Uriel as you would not be looking at angels, just at the man who happens to fight demons with an angel sword.
Good night guys
Goldfish
Friendly Spider-Fish Abomination
- Location
- Formerly of the Far Realm
[X] You think he's missing something, this daring plan, wagering to knock Nicodemus out of the game, it isn't a Lasciel move at all. It's the kind of plan Harry Dresden might come up with. The Shadow of a Fallen Tiffany may have been, but she was cast upon a mortal soul
Ivar
Dark Reaper
- Location
- Russia Moscow
[X] You think he's missing something, this daring plan, wagering to knock Nicodemus out of the game, it isn't a Lasciel move at all. It's the kind of plan Harry Dresden might come up with. The Shadow of a Fallen Tiffany may have been, but she was cast upon a mortal soul
[x] You think he's missing something, this daring plan, wagering to knock Nocedemus out of the game, it isn't a Lasciel move at all. It's the kind of plan Harry Dresden might come up with. The Shadow of a Fallen Tiffany may have been, but she was cast upon a mortal soul
This is pretty much my exact opinion as I read the plan.
This whole plan is absolutely something I can see Harry coming up with.
This is pretty much my exact opinion as I read the plan.
This whole plan is absolutely something I can see Harry coming up with.
So, on the denarian plan, we need to know several things and prepare several things:
1) Does it cost anything to the Denarian to make a shadow? Ie are they using CTRL+C or CTRL+X when they do? Is shadow permadeath (via spirit killer charms) harmful to the fallen (like how third circle permadeath was harmful to primordials)?
2) What defenses do the Fallen have? We can assume that they have at least some perfect defenses, but all perfect defenses have flaws of vulnerability. Even Sol Invictus, who was Lucifer, but actually successful, had conditions under which his perfect defenses would go down.
3) Can a Fallen's shadow be used as a backdoor to their defenses? They are an arcane link, but we need to know if this can be exploited. For example, if we tarnish black the memories a shadow has, and they then merge back with the fallen, would the effect propagate to the Fallen? What about if the Fallen's shadow is under "cannot heal" curse at the time of subsumption? Or, alternatively, if the shadow is granted a perfect defense of some kind, and the Dallen tries to subsume it, would the shadow override the Fallen?
4) We need to know their willpower, essence and other pools. Theoretically, even primordials could be mote tapped or willpower drained. It stands to reason that this can be done to a Fallen.
5) Find and study Black Vault and other such devices. If it can hold exaltation shards, it might hold the coins
6) We need to know what the consequences of permakilling a Fallen are. I don't doubt our ability to do it, I worry about the consequences
There are also ideas of what we can try to do:
1) Find out and reverse engineer Surrender Oaths. Those are Ancient Sorcery (adjacent) and could bind Primordials. If we can bind a Fallen with them, this might be a game changer.
2) Look into Elsewhere. Yes, if we put the coin where it cannot be retrieved, Fallen are allowed to retrieve them, but the question is, what counts as "cannot be retrieved". It might also be possible to put the coins where Fallen dannot retrieved them. The extreme solution is to throw the coins Outside. We would need to study the possible consequences though.
3) Study what makes an angel Fall. If Michael misused Uriel's Grace, Uriel would have Fallen. It seems to be some manner of condition / effect / transformation, like becoming a Creature of Darkness. Now, the question is - can we make a perfect defense splendor against Falling? Essentially make something for Uriel that would allow him to break the Rules without Falling. It would need to be limited to prevent abuse, but even a single use splendor which allows for example Amoracchius to act with their full might with no consequence would flip the board.
4) Investigate time dilation and time travel. Fallen and Rules work on different time scales than we do, which is our advantage. If we neutralize all the Fallen for, say, ten years or a century by launching the coins on a relativistic orbit or even just throwing them directly into the future, it might be within the Rules, but would give us a decade or a century to build up with no opposition. Which is a lot in our time frame.
1) Does it cost anything to the Denarian to make a shadow? Ie are they using CTRL+C or CTRL+X when they do? Is shadow permadeath (via spirit killer charms) harmful to the fallen (like how third circle permadeath was harmful to primordials)?
2) What defenses do the Fallen have? We can assume that they have at least some perfect defenses, but all perfect defenses have flaws of vulnerability. Even Sol Invictus, who was Lucifer, but actually successful, had conditions under which his perfect defenses would go down.
3) Can a Fallen's shadow be used as a backdoor to their defenses? They are an arcane link, but we need to know if this can be exploited. For example, if we tarnish black the memories a shadow has, and they then merge back with the fallen, would the effect propagate to the Fallen? What about if the Fallen's shadow is under "cannot heal" curse at the time of subsumption? Or, alternatively, if the shadow is granted a perfect defense of some kind, and the Dallen tries to subsume it, would the shadow override the Fallen?
4) We need to know their willpower, essence and other pools. Theoretically, even primordials could be mote tapped or willpower drained. It stands to reason that this can be done to a Fallen.
5) Find and study Black Vault and other such devices. If it can hold exaltation shards, it might hold the coins
6) We need to know what the consequences of permakilling a Fallen are. I don't doubt our ability to do it, I worry about the consequences
There are also ideas of what we can try to do:
1) Find out and reverse engineer Surrender Oaths. Those are Ancient Sorcery (adjacent) and could bind Primordials. If we can bind a Fallen with them, this might be a game changer.
2) Look into Elsewhere. Yes, if we put the coin where it cannot be retrieved, Fallen are allowed to retrieve them, but the question is, what counts as "cannot be retrieved". It might also be possible to put the coins where Fallen dannot retrieved them. The extreme solution is to throw the coins Outside. We would need to study the possible consequences though.
3) Study what makes an angel Fall. If Michael misused Uriel's Grace, Uriel would have Fallen. It seems to be some manner of condition / effect / transformation, like becoming a Creature of Darkness. Now, the question is - can we make a perfect defense splendor against Falling? Essentially make something for Uriel that would allow him to break the Rules without Falling. It would need to be limited to prevent abuse, but even a single use splendor which allows for example Amoracchius to act with their full might with no consequence would flip the board.
4) Investigate time dilation and time travel. Fallen and Rules work on different time scales than we do, which is our advantage. If we neutralize all the Fallen for, say, ten years or a century by launching the coins on a relativistic orbit or even just throwing them directly into the future, it might be within the Rules, but would give us a decade or a century to build up with no opposition. Which is a lot in our time frame.
fictionfan
Please sir, may I have some Meows?
- Location
- Tempe, AZ
As the process is described I don't think so Lash was made out of Dresden. The metaphor being like a foot print in mud. So well it might take a bit of effort to stamp in mud that doesn't hurt the boot.
They are using the Demon the Fallen splat. Which does give quite a few very good defenses. Like the Immune of Poison ability doesn't list any limitations or exceptions.
Likely but that is more because Golden Years tainted black doesn't have much in the way of limits. You can taint memories using an email. Or a spam pop up ad.
Faith just like Tiffany. Although they had lots of things that they can do without needing to spend any.
Don't have good comments on the rest.
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BoredMan
Maintaining the Agenda is our top priority
Asking a Crown question on this may tell us or at least give some insight on how to kill an Angel-
fictionfan
Please sir, may I have some Meows?
- Location
- Tempe, AZ
@Yog If you want to know the fallen's perfect defenses just look at Tiffany's character sheet.
Immunity to Mind Control and Possession
Resistance to Illusion: Demons can always roll Perception+Awareness (Dif 7) if in the presence of any illusions or supernatural concealment. If the roll is successful they see through the artifice.
Basically I assume all the Nickelheads are like Tiffany with more XP lots more Torment and stuck in coins. The splat even has a name for being trapped in objects Earthbound.
Here is what the wiki has to say about Earthbound in terms of powers
Earthbound are so far removed from their angelic state that they no longer bear the Visages of the house they once belonged to. Instead they develop unique forms with far more power than their old forms. However, to reflect their twisted forms, they also bear grotesqueries, which are deformities that render mortals into mindless, babbling beings; even the most debased, tormented Fallen must turn away from an Earthbound in utter disgust.
There should be a whole book on them called "Demon: The Earthbound", but I don't have it. Of course it is likely mostly filled with lore that doesn't apply.
Immunity to Mind Control and Possession
Resistance to Illusion: Demons can always roll Perception+Awareness (Dif 7) if in the presence of any illusions or supernatural concealment. If the roll is successful they see through the artifice.
Basically I assume all the Nickelheads are like Tiffany with more XP lots more Torment and stuck in coins. The splat even has a name for being trapped in objects Earthbound.
Here is what the wiki has to say about Earthbound in terms of powers
Powers
The object containing the Earthbound's essence is called its reliquary. Reliquaries can channel and contain vast amounts of energy, and are far superior to human hosts in terms of raw power (as an example, no Fallen can affect an area with a radius of more than a few miles with their Lore, but some Earthbound can potentially affect the entire planet at once). Unfortunately, having a body that can't move, has only a dim perception of its surroundings, and is completely without sensory input besides sight and sound isn't that much of an improvement compared to the Abyss. A reliquary's essential blank-slate state and lack of a moral compass furthermore provides no relief from the millennia-old wrath and madness of the Abyss, and as a result the Earthbound degenerate further and further as time wears on, unable to escape their own Torment.Earthbound are so far removed from their angelic state that they no longer bear the Visages of the house they once belonged to. Instead they develop unique forms with far more power than their old forms. However, to reflect their twisted forms, they also bear grotesqueries, which are deformities that render mortals into mindless, babbling beings; even the most debased, tormented Fallen must turn away from an Earthbound in utter disgust.
There should be a whole book on them called "Demon: The Earthbound", but I don't have it. Of course it is likely mostly filled with lore that doesn't apply.
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No.
They apparently spam them pretty freely against anyone who touches a Coin.
Think an Eclipse Phase fork.
They are sealed into Coins by either the White God or Lucifer, and their imprisonment is somehow linked to the events around the death of Christ.
It stands to reason that damaging them involves busting the Coin itself by defeating the Power of either Lucifer or the White God that sealed them in, daunting enough in its own right, but even if you succeeded you would then means be facing an unbound Fallen, with everything that entails.
I doubt that.
Nevermind the ethical questions involved would probably make Molly balk.
Yes. Thats their effective resource pool as far as Im aware.
They are more limited by their hosts and the rules that bind them, not the prospect of running out of power. Harry had a seemingly endless pool of Hellfire to tap into when Lash was riding him, and he hadnt even taken up the Coin.
The primary limitation is the width and quality of the pipe, not the pool its drawing from. Which is why the more effective Fallen are picky about who their hosts are. You're going to get a lot more mileage out of a White Council wizard-class talent, a Big Foot, or a crime lord with a will of adamant, than you will from a random junkie.
It wont.
The deal that keeps the Coins on the Earth allows them to remain in circulation by increasingly blatant means compared to the effort applied to take them out. Up to and including blatant teleportation.
If not by the Fallen inside the Coin, then by Lucy.
We can probably arrange to take them out of circulation for several years, but no longer.
And they're already in prisons which we cant improve on.
I doubt thats at all possible in the first place.
Worst-case, we get another Coin or ten from Hell, or Lucifer gets a forfeit in return.
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- Location
- Right Where I Am
I think I missed something somewhere. Why and how are we involving one of our clones in sharing this in order to keep it more secret? What's going on that is any different from just saying it ourselves?
Because you do not have telepathy, but the clone does which means you are not saying the thing, there aren't any sound waves to post-cog say. Someone would literally have to read minds to hear the conversation.
Other comments in the evening.
Uriel could be killed when he lent his Grace to Michael. There was no implication that doing so would be counter productive for the other side.
Why would he? We are human, not under heaven's control. If we permakill an angel (something that is possible- there's no one truly immune to being permakilled), it means Lucifer lost, not that heaven cheated.
Uriel could be killed when he lent his Grace to Michael. There was no implication that doing so would be counter productive for the other side.
Not really. They caused harm, but almost always fail.
Shiro died, but he was dying anyway and an Angel of Death ready to fight the Devil himself if necessary came to personally escort him to the afterlife. In small favor they trade a bunch of veterans for noobs as a consolation prize. In Skin Games he doesn't even get the real grail because Hades knew and was part of the con.
I'm not saying they aren't dangerous, but we see them lose with regularity. They lose more than they win where we can see them which is the part that actually has quantifiable evidence. You can fill blanks with anything you want otherwise.
I'm not saying they aren't dangerous, but I will assert that what we saw was their A game.
Misremembered that scene, but I'm pretty sure I was just conflating it with the fight at the airport where it did very much matter.
Also we got a WoG from DP that the exaltation is willing to try eating an Angel for power.
In any case this is a core skill for exalts; being unkillable doesn't mean they won't kill you anyway.
Vote closed.
- Location
- Right Where I Am
Okay, that makes sense then. I had missed that she had that.
Arc 13 Post 23: Ambition Cast in Spires, Dreams Dug Deep
Ambition Cast in Spires, Dreams Dug Deep
6th of February 2007 A.D.
"I don't think this is something Lasciel could have anticipated for the same reason she could not have guessed that she'd lose Tiffany herself. That reason is Harry Dresden." Mind-speech risks making the argument awkward, given how thoughts of Harry are usually colored in your mind, but since you're the one to bring it up there's time enough to daub it over to simple admiration with none of the other stuff. "This is the kind of plan Harry would make if he had the leverage..."
"That does not make me feel better," Mom starts.
"Well the eternal game of whak-a-mole does not make me feel good either," your other self answers before you can, the frustration dripping like tar from the words. "Every moment of every day a call might come for Dad to do the impossible, to risk his health, his peace of mind, his life because some assholes picked up a coin that promised them the world...."
You can feel Dad's answer and Mom's resolve, you know the answer too.
"Just because you're willing to do it doesn't mean I have to be willing to let the wheel turn from now to the End of Days. I have this chance, this still small chance, a spark caught still burning in my hand to make it so no one else has to watch their father, their mother, their brother or sister go out there and try to match ages of malice armed with just enough to make the playing field level. Why should evil get an even playing field? The rest of us don't. It's easy to sin and hard to repent, harder still to fix what you've broken, but we have to try. There has to be more to this than bailing out the water until our arms grow tired."
"The Wheel turns to darkness..." both your parents start at Usum's voice. Dad at least has seen him in Sanctuary, but your mother never had.
"But wheels turn both ways," two-who-are-you speak as one.
So your darker side gives the impression of a bow in graceful acquiescence and you continue: "I do this not because I must but because I can, because there is hope."
"It's not going to change much if I go into all the ways people have tried to do what you are trying and failed over the years is it?" Dad asks, his expression softening from worry to something a lot more rueful.
"Of course it will change things, I'll make a better plan if I find out what went wrong in the past," you fire back as a burst of complex emotion blooms around your mother: Pride and frustration, sadness, bewilderment and contention, you don't even know what to name it.
"As soon give a nickname to every grain of sand on a beach as every human emotion," Pods confesses. "I've always known people are more complex on the inside than out but... yeesh." It's on that final fervent 'yeesh' and the promise from Dad to get as much historical information on the Order of the Blackened Denarius as he can out of the Church. Some of it might serve as foci suitable for you to look into their plans and if not, insight is always valuable.
That night you dream of broken spires, of crystals fracturing along impossible lines, of things that were eternal made not and those that should be mortals raised into eternity. You dream of a man with three eyes and somehow you know that he is a warlock, that he is a lair, a failure and a slave to poor masters... and yet he is smiling. Why is he smiling?
Essence Increased to 4 -> Mote Pool now 18/18
***
7th of February 2007 A.D.
Still it will be weeks or even months before he can get anything. Those portions of the Church who know about the Coins and the swords are understandably paranoid about releasing any information they do not have to. While part of you wants to decry that as reactive, one must admit the only reason you are seeking out those insights is that they have not wholly failed against beings with resources and knowledge far beyond their own. For now, until Tiffany comes home to help break the news to Harry you descend into the Last Station where Maker of Immaculate Relics Untarnished, Miru, as the emerald green name tag proclaimed her, had already been working to transform what had been an island of comfort and security in Undertown into something altogether more ambitious, a dream of lighting and brass, singing in harmony.
Now what you know what to look for the sinuous baroque styles of the City of Fountains are everywhere, a place of communion and community, between mortal and spirit. Porter is more lively than you had ever seen him, offering suggestions and insights into the ley network. The shell of the train had already been set up and it is more wyrm than trail, segmented burnished brass, each segment emblazoned with an aspect of its history: Near the tail, the passing of the Great Ice, what Miru had recognized as the continent grinding Laurentide Ice Sheet under which a young dragon had slept in the youth of the world through the time of the waters, the people of the woods and of the maize, the mound builders whom he honored and was honored by in return and at last to the fire and the City of Winds that sprang from the fire all the grander. Porter is the earth of this land and it is the place of the earth to remember that the years did not pass in vain.
So of course you ask him: "If I step into the Otherworld here what am I going to find?"
"My sanctum?" the rumble is more question than answer, not like he's unsure of it, but of what you meant to do with the information.
"Oh... I do hope I am not intruding," you answer careful not to tread on any metaphorical toes.
"Certainly not, it's just that there isn't much of interest there unless you are interested in stones and old bones."
"What kind of stones?" Sarah who is always among the more curious of the Jade Dogs and the most likely to talk to Porter from what you heard.
"Why all sorts, river stones and fire stones and stones that flew through the earth... even some stones," he leans as if to whisper, though his voice still echoes. "That remember the songs of the Earth.... songs gleaming brighter than gold.... Many have sought it of me only once did I share it... it was likely unwise of me... but I had grown so very dispirited and he spoke so kindly.... like you... but you came back. You are better than him. Only natural really... seeing as you are a dragon."
Grey Jade, you are almost positive he's talking about that, the focus of earthly stability and permanence. "Who did you share it with?"
"Oh, he didn't give a name... he was the sort that didn't like to share names... probably because he lived out on the lake. Tricky element is water."
What do you do?
[] Ask more questions
-[] Write in what
[] Pass to the other side
-[] Write in who is anyone to take with you
[] Wrtite in
OOC: OK, moving right along. I did not want to put a dream in here just for dreaming's sake given that your shintai isn't changing.
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