Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

Neither of these are law breaches. Using a divine artifact or fey super weapon isn't mortal magic; the council might have practical issues with the fallout, but couldn't reasonably charge these guys or us as warlocks.

I don't think the point about what we would do matters though. The problem, in my mind at least, is not that they wanted to steal magical artifacts*. It's who they want to resurrect and how they're likely to act. A magical sixth century warlord and his demigod background dancers are a problem we'd have to solve. I don't really care about his brand recognition, that's what he is.

* Worth noting only one of the three things they wanted to steal is actually necessary for saving Arthur. Presumably the others are bonus weapons because they got greedy.

Arthur is someone who was capable of wielding the Sword of Love. That means that he's a moral paragon even by the standards of the modern era, which means his servants are also likely to be exceptionally moral, as otherwise he couldn't have kept them as his vassals.

We can worry about their table manners, or about them being culturally insensitive, or their priorities. One thing we can be very confident of is that Arthur at least is a truly good man. He's like Michael Carpenter, but smart enough and charismatic enough to manage being truly virtuous (and not in the Exalted sense) that whilst also being a Dark Age Ruler. The Sword of Love demands no less, and he lived up to that for a long time.

There's a reason that his vassals were willing to risk this to revive him so he could continue to rule, and that's because he must have been that wonderful a ruler. He has the best character reference we can get, as he's literally approved by by G God, who Molly has a deep and abiding faith in.
 
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Arthur is someone who was capable of wielding the Sword of Love. That means that he's a moral paragon even by the standards of the modern era, which means his servants are also likely to be exceptionally moral, as otherwise he couldn't have kept them as his vassals.

We can worry about their table manners, or about them being culturally insensitive, or their priorities. One thing we can be very confident of is that Arthur at least is a truly good man. He's like Michael Carpenter, but smart enough and charismatic enough to manage being truly virtuous (and not in the Exalted sense) that whilst also being a Dark Age Ruler. The Sword of Love demands no less, and he lived up to that for a long time.

There's a reason that his vassals were willing to risk this to revive him so he could continue to rule, and that's because he must have been that wonderful a ruler. He has the best character reference we can get, as he's literally approved by by G God, who Molly has a deep and abiding faith in.
Yes, I understand that he is a good man, no one doubts the character of the chosen ones of swords, but he was good in the context of the Medieval era, from which he was born, grew up and acted.

The sword cannot apply the same logic and morals of today to the situation of 1500 years ago for several reasons, and it was impossible for the bearer at that time to know what these standards would be even if they were a seer for a long period of time and the impact of so many people (the same reason that Von Tier gave about why it is not possible to predict the impact of the bomb on the US economy) and for the bearer to know such different information, the sword would need to speak with him, interfering in free will and giving the chance for the other side to interfere.

In other words, he was good, noble and kind, for a medieval warrior king.
 
Greek heroes -> King Arthur's Knights -> Superheroes.

King Arthur and his chivalry and 'might for right as opposed to might makes right' and all that are not equivalent to the Greek ideals of heroism. At all. He ain't a hero by modern standards but he'd still be a good ruler by modern standards and definitely a hero by the standards of his time.
 
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Yes, I understand that he is a good man, no one doubts the character of the chosen ones of swords, but he was good in the context of the Medieval era, from which he was born, grew up and acted.

The sword cannot apply the same logic and morals of today to the situation of 1500 years ago for several reasons, and it was impossible for the bearer at that time to know what these standards would be even if they were a seer for a long period of time and the impact of so many people (the same reason that Von Tier gave about why it is not possible to predict the impact of the bomb on the US economy) and for the bearer to know such different information, the sword would need to speak with him, interfering in free will and giving the chance for the other side to interfere.

In other words, he was good, noble and kind, for a medieval warrior king.

I don't believe that Jim Butcher's God practices moral relativism. King Arthur is a moral man by the Sword of Love's standards, i.e. God's standards, the same standards of very explicitly Christian virtue that Michael Carpenter holds himself to.

Arthur isn't a good person by 6th century warlord standards, but by the highest ideals of Christian moral thought. Which aren't so totally different to today, it's just that people didn't live up to them often, particularly rulers. King Arthur did though.
 
If one of our circlemates died, and we knew of a resurrection artefact, and couldn't craft one ourselves, we absolutely would storm the gates of hell for them. In fact, we have just recently stormed the gates of hell, and unleashed a weapon of mass destruction that is firmly in breach of "Thou Shalt Not Invade the Mind of Another" Law.

And, as I mentioned before, the "greek hero" is a load of sh*t attempt to devalue the good heroes did and do and their character.
1) No we wouldnt. Dead is dead.
We might move for someone who is only mostly dead, but whose soul has not passed on.
Someone who is dead is beyond our reach.

2)We stormed Yomi Wan for a living dude unjustly held.
We did so without mortal magic.

3)Greek hero is an explicit benchmark for the Exalted.
For every Perseus, there's a Jason.
They were mighty, not good, and equally capable of great good and great harm, often in the same person.

Arthur apparently wasn't dead though, I think. He was critically wounded and put to sleep. They needed the Cauldron to heal him, not to ressurect him.

I don't approve, but choosing to keep three heroes and a legendary prophesised saviour imprisoned in an afterlife is very on brand for a Yama Queen, so at least there's that.
The Cauldron of Rebirth raises the dead, it doesnt heal the critically wounded.

The QM might choose to riff on how things work here, but the versions of the Arthur mythos that the QM has referred us to appear to be the old Celtic stories as recorded in the Welsh Triads, not the Romances.
And in those, he died.
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And in the end Arthur encountered the emperor, and Arthur slew him. And Arthur's best men were slain there. When Medrawd heard that Arthur's host was dispersed, he turned against Arthur, and the Saxons and the Picts and the Scots united with him to hold this Island against Arthur. And when Arthur heard that, he turned back with all that had survived of his army, and succeeded by violence in landing on this Island in opposition to Medrawd. And then there took place the Battle of Camlan between Arthur and Medrawd, and was himself wounded to death. And from that (wound) he died, and was buried in a hall on the Island of Afallach.


I don't believe that Jim Butcher's God practices moral relativism. King Arthur is a moral man by the Sword of Love's standards, i.e. God's standards, the same standards of very explicitly Christian virtue that Michael Carpenter holds himself to.

Arthur isn't a good person by 6th century warlord standards, but by the highest ideals of Christian moral thought. Which aren't so totally different to today, it's just that people didn't live up to them often, particularly rulers. King Arthur did though.
Jim Butcher's God is very much about grace, not worthiness.
You dont earn the right to bear a Sword. Dresden wasnt a particularly righteous person when Fidelacchius on his back levelled the playing field against Nicodemus.

Counterpoint:
Karrin Murphy.Who is a good person, but NOT a moral paragon of any sort, and yet wielded Fidelacchius at Chitchen Itza. Or Susan Rodriguez, who wielded Amoracchius at Chitchen Itza after more than a decade of wet work as a Fellowship assassin.

Or Harry Dresden, who most definitely isnt a moral paragon, but has been the guardian for not just one but two Swords.

I mean, Butcher has said George Washington was once a Knight.
George "Town-Destroyer" Washington. George "Owned 300+ Slaves" Washington.

And specifically for this quest, the myths we were referred to for reference are the Welsh Triads.
The ones where Arthur is pretty clearly a fairly conventional warlord.
So either the stories are conflating two different Arthurs, or you have it wrong for this AU.
 
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Jim Butcher's God is very much about grace, not worthiness.
I'm pretty sure that every living being that has ever existed is comedically distant from true worthiness and, in fact, to be worthy likely means to stop being anything remotely human. But some things, some people are still better than other things and he genuinely appreciates that you are trying.

Arthur was trying, George was trying, we are trying. But we are still just children making our first foray into carpentry and making ass-ugly birdhouses that would be a small scale war crime to mount anywhere in your yard. He's just being a very understanding parent now that he's gotten through his high-stress Old Testament period.
So either the stories are conflating two different Arthurs, or you have it wrong for this AU.
Supposedly the stories are conflating something like a half dozen or more historical figures... alongside a fair bit of national propaganda on the part of various sides.

Crestien de Troies kind of went to town writing King Arthur fanfiction and it just so happened to supplant earlier stories more than a little. Geoffrey of Monmouth was just as weird. But even the early sources are a seething morass of weird, conflicting local stories that are painful as fuck to try to make sense of.

Whomever we listen to in regard to the nature of Arthur isn't going to be a living human, most likely. Our records are utter shit.
 
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[X] Yog

Las Vegas alone broke the back of the supernatural flesh trade in a major city, and probably cut its legs out from under it in the whole region to boot. That shit would have survived the death of the red court, whatever wars against the white you care to wage, and any practical law enforcement action absent our influence. Boston has global implications on both sides of the fence we're still feeling out. Even just showing our face in public around Chicago regularly was enough to uproot the Council's militarization program and move it to us, changing the course of a global war.
Your average Infernal would have subdued or slain the Sin Eater, instead of stopping at installing a new management.
We fall short of that expectation.

Do we only count as a good exalt if we clumsily throw our weight around and collapse society to the detriment of any nominal agenda we have?
Over the last 3000 pages I have come to notice that I don't particularly like the Dresden Setting.
So upsetting it is a cause in itself for me.

I understand Exalted as a handgrenade to be thrown into the setting, in ExWoD and here too.
First we do some awesome shit and break the status quo, step two is scrambling to survive the consequences and maybe improve the world while picking the remnants of the old order up.
 
We'll be breaking the status quo regardless, but doing so recklessly will result in exponentially more deaths than the incremental but assured path we're currently taking. A little patience is warranted when the alternative will definitely result in more deaths and has a poorer chance of actually improving the world.
 
Adhoc vote count started by Anaja on Jun 22, 2024 at 12:59 AM, finished with 120 posts and 38 votes.

  • [X] Offer to strengthen the door that leads to the prison of the three and onto Arthur's return from Avalon
    [X] Learn more. Why should the heroes of the land be barred from returning? Whose will is it that bids them to be bound? What consequences of their return
    -[X] Etiquette excellency
    -[X] Use the Crown on the current scene to find what the prisoners are planning to do if they are freed
    -[X] Lydia uses Akashic Root Methodology to learn more about the prisoners
    [X] Plan investigations
    -[X] Learn more. Why should the heroes of the land be barred from returning? Whose will is it that bids them to be bound? What consequences of their return
    --[X] Etiquette excellency
    --[X] Use the Crown on the current scene to find what the prisoners are intending to do if they are freed
    --[X] Lydia uses Akashic Root Methodology to learn more about the prisoners
    --[X] Ask to be escorted to their place of imprisonment, so you can try and talk to them, and perhaps negotiate a satisfying outcome for everyone
    [X] Just take with you what hounds had grown weary of their task
    [X] Why should the doors stay closed when there is so much wrong in the world, why should heroes sleep until the end of days? Offer to walk to the gate and break it with brass that all will be free to range as they will
    [X] Why should the doors stay closed when there is so much wrong in the world, why should heroes sleep until the end of days? Offer to walk to the gate and break it with brass that all will be free to range as they will
    -[X] Empathy excellency
    -[X] Stunt: Upon your brow, the marking of your crown manifests, as you stand straighter, the regal bearing not of a princess still seeking her kingdom, but an Empress who found hers: "You say that you fuard them until the turning of the world? Then hear me, o faithful guardians, and know my words to be true : The Wheel Turns. Your duty is coming to an end. So let us enter the prison you guard, so the world can get four more heroes ensuring that the next Age will not be one of Ruin"
    [X] Offer to strengthen the door that leads to the prison of the three and onto Arthur's return from Avalon
    -[X] Use the Crown on the current scene to find what the prisoners are planning to do if they are freed
    -[X] Lydia uses Akashic Root Methodology to learn more about the prisoners
 
Changing my vote. Those questions probably will run into the Free Will issue so I'd rather take a course of action. In all likelihood they won't have any solid plans before they are let loose and understand the situation so I don't think the Crown will get anything reliable.

[X] Offer to strengthen the door that leads to the prison of the three and onto Arthur's return from Avalon
 
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[X] Learn more. Why should the heroes of the land be barred from returning? Whose will is it that bids them to be bound? What consequences of their return
-[X] Etiquette excellency
-[X] Use the Crown on the current scene to find what the prisoners are planning to do if they are freed
-[X] Lydia uses Akashic Root Methodology to learn more about the prisoners


I find that the vampirers and formori have been using Humanity as a snack bar for too long and could use some Crusades against them, I for one welcome Arthur the future God Emperor of Mankind. Maybe Molly can finally find someone equal to date for a while. Two birds one stone and all that.

I admit that my own entertainment is most of the motivation.
 
We'll be breaking the status quo regardless, but doing so recklessly will result in exponentially more deaths than the incremental but assured path we're currently taking. A little patience is warranted when the alternative will definitely result in more deaths and has a poorer chance of actually improving the world.
Also it's just how fast the game plays. We kind of want to take it slow so we have any time at all to build up. We haven't been able to craft a single wonder for ourself and are deep in the hole craftwise bailing other people out of the fire.
 
[X] Learn more. Why should the heroes of the land be barred from returning? Whose will is it that bids them to be bound? What consequences of their return
-[X] Etiquette excellency
-[X] Use the Crown on the current scene to find what the prisoners are planning to do if they are freed
-[X] Lydia uses Akashic Root Methodology to learn more about the prisoners
 
[X] Yog


Your average Infernal would have subdued or slain the Sin Eater, instead of stopping at installing a new management.
We fall short of that expectation.


Over the last 3000 pages I have come to notice that I don't particularly like the Dresden Setting.
So upsetting it is a cause in itself for me.

I understand Exalted as a handgrenade to be thrown into the setting, in ExWoD and here too.
First we do some awesome shit and break the status quo, step two is scrambling to survive the consequences and maybe improve the world while picking the remnants of the old order up.

The setting is groaning under the weight of Molly's deeds, it's not that your actions have not had an impact, it is that a large part of the impact is still obscured, like an iceberg... but the tide is going out. ;)
 
Sorry if I'm too negative about the setting.

The whole problem that the mechanics don't work for me anymore leaves me a bit cynic on the non-mechanical parts too I guess.
(Level 6 Gifts or plot-device levels of True Faith on what was supposed to be expendable copies?)
 
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[X] Learn more. Why should the heroes of the land be barred from returning? Whose will is it that bids them to be bound? What consequences of their return
-[X] Etiquette excellency
-[X] Use the Crown on the current scene to find what the prisoners are planning to do if they are freed
-[X] Lydia uses Akashic Root Methodology to learn more about the prisoners

[X] Plan investigations
-[X] Learn more. Why should the heroes of the land be barred from returning? Whose will is it that bids them to be bound? What consequences of their return
--[X] Etiquette excellency
--[X] Use the Crown on the current scene to find what the prisoners are intending to do if they are freed
--[X] Lydia uses Akashic Root Methodology to learn more about the prisoners
--[X] Ask to be escorted to their place of imprisonment, so you can try and talk to them, and perhaps negotiate a satisfying outcome for everyone


The reason I'm not voting to reinforce the prison, to learn it's location, is that I would rather not backstab the hounds, especially the ones who will enter Lydia's service. Let's just be honest with them, that we are considering releasing the ancient heroes.

As for why not just release them immediately, I'm selfishly defining "heroes" as "people we won't end up fighting, to make up for the fact the we were the ones who screwed up, by releasing them". I would also rather have prep time and not have Daniel in ground zero.
 
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Sorry if I'm too negative about the setting.

The whole problem that the mechanics don't work for me anymore leaves me a bit cynic on the non-mechanical parts too I guess.
(Level 6 Gifts or plot-device levels of True Faith on what was supposed to be expendable copies?)
I personally find Superman stories compelling. What do you do when winning is no longer a question of if, but how? Admittedly many writers can't manage if so they just throw green rocks everywhere, but it actually is a compelling question that is better explored in a quest with loads of people then in a comic book.
 
1) No we wouldnt. Dead is dead.
We might move for someone who is only mostly dead, but whose soul has not passed on.
Someone who is dead is beyond our reach.
The definition of "dead" in a world that explicitly allows true resurrection and time travel is very fuzzy, and I, for one, would explore a lot of options.
2)We stormed Yomi Wan for a living dude unjustly held.
We did so without mortal magic.
What part of "Arawn's divine artifact" do you interpret as mortal magic?
3)Greek hero is an explicit benchmark for the Exalted.
For every Perseus, there's a Jason.
They were mighty, not good, and equally capable of great good and great harm, often in the same person.
I fundamentally disagree.
 
The whole problem that the mechanics don't work for me anymore leaves me a bit cynic on the non-mechanical parts too I guess.
(Level 6 Gifts or plot-device levels of True Faith on what was supposed to be expendable copies?)
To be fair part of the problem is that Holden instead of giving EXP to clones gave them merit dots. 40-50 EXP is a very different beast to 40-50 merit dots. Don't know what he was smoking.

[X] Learn more. Why should the heroes of the land be barred from returning? Whose will is it that bids them to be bound? What consequences of their return
-[X] Etiquette excellency
-[X] Use the Crown on the current scene to find what the prisoners are planning to do if they are freed
-[X] Lydia uses Akashic Root Methodology to learn more about the prisoners

[X] Plan investigations
-[X] Learn more. Why should the heroes of the land be barred from returning? Whose will is it that bids them to be bound? What consequences of their return
--[X] Etiquette excellency
--[X] Use the Crown on the current scene to find what the prisoners are intending to do if they are freed
--[X] Lydia uses Akashic Root Methodology to learn more about the prisoners
--[X] Ask to be escorted to their place of imprisonment, so you can try and talk to them, and perhaps negotiate a satisfying outcome for everyone


Personally I think keeping them there for over a thousand years is kind of a dick move. Ideally Molly just should talk to them and hash out a deal for some grace period before they run face first into current problems.

It's not a problem of if they are good or bad people. But Lydia is good people and her first reaction to finding a serial killer was to blast him on the road. And those guys are supposed to be even more reckless. Plus whatever the time spent locked up did to them.

They need some time to learn about current situation and society without rushing to solve some problem or quest.
 
Adhoc vote count started by Yzarc on Jun 22, 2024 at 3:47 AM, finished with 132 posts and 41 votes.

  • [X] Offer to strengthen the door that leads to the prison of the three and onto Arthur's return from Avalon
    [X] Learn more. Why should the heroes of the land be barred from returning? Whose will is it that bids them to be bound? What consequences of their return
    -[X] Etiquette excellency
    -[X] Use the Crown on the current scene to find what the prisoners are planning to do if they are freed
    -[X] Lydia uses Akashic Root Methodology to learn more about the prisoners
    [X] Plan investigations
    -[X] Learn more. Why should the heroes of the land be barred from returning? Whose will is it that bids them to be bound? What consequences of their return
    --[X] Etiquette excellency
    --[X] Use the Crown on the current scene to find what the prisoners are intending to do if they are freed
    --[X] Lydia uses Akashic Root Methodology to learn more about the prisoners
    --[X] Ask to be escorted to their place of imprisonment, so you can try and talk to them, and perhaps negotiate a satisfying outcome for everyone
    [X] Just take with you what hounds had grown weary of their task
    [X] Why should the doors stay closed when there is so much wrong in the world, why should heroes sleep until the end of days? Offer to walk to the gate and break it with brass that all will be free to range as they will
    -[X] Empathy excellency
    -[X] Stunt: Upon your brow, the marking of your crown manifests, as you stand straighter, the regal bearing not of a princess still seeking her kingdom, but an Empress who found hers: "You say that you fuard them until the turning of the world? Then hear me, o faithful guardians, and know my words to be true : The Wheel Turns. Your duty is coming to an end. So let us enter the prison you guard, so the world can get four more heroes ensuring that the next Age will not be one of Ruin"
    [X] Why should the doors stay closed when there is so much wrong in the world, why should heroes sleep until the end of days? Offer to walk to the gate and break it with brass that all will be free to range as they will
    [X] Offer to strengthen the door that leads to the prison of the three and onto Arthur's return from Avalon
    -[X] Use the Crown on the current scene to find what the prisoners are planning to do if they are freed
    -[X] Lydia uses Akashic Root Methodology to learn more about the prisoners
 
[X] Plan investigations
-[X] Learn more. Why should the heroes of the land be barred from returning? Whose will is it that bids them to be bound? What consequences of their return
--[X] Etiquette excellency
--[X] Use the Crown on the current scene to find what the prisoners are intending to do if they are freed
--[X] Lydia uses Akashic Root Methodology to learn more about the prisoners
--[X] Ask to be escorted to their place of imprisonment, so you can try and talk to them, and perhaps negotiate a satisfying outcome for everyone

[X] Learn more. Why should the heroes of the land be barred from returning? Whose will is it that bids them to be bound? What consequences of their return
-[X] Etiquette excellency
-[X] Use the Crown on the current scene to find what the prisoners are planning to do if they are freed
-[X] Lydia uses Akashic Root Methodology to learn more about the prisoners


Fundamentally these are the same plans, one just advances a bit more.
 
To be fair part of the problem is that Holden instead of giving EXP to clones gave them merit dots. 40-50 EXP is a very different beast to 40-50 merit dots. Don't know what he was smoking.
Oh, that's not on Holden.
That's a costum version of the Charm that this thread made.

Basic version would be that the Clones are perfectly normal humans, with the same stats (and if applicable merits) as the Exalted, and no supernatural power at all.
 
OK I'm going to need three things answered here before I vote:

1) Did we already have a conversation about using the crown here maybe interfering with our oath to not use it on God? You know because Arthur here was one of the Knights.

2) Are we sure Arthur can not leave trough some other method? In the myths of Brittany the leader of the Wild Hunt is King Arthur himself, so could we use our Summer Favors to learn more about what happened then?

3) Why are we not asking if Arthur and his loyal servants count as dead or alive for the purposes of the world right now?
 
OK I'm going to need three things answered here before I vote:

1) Did we already have a conversation about using the crown here maybe interfering with our oath to not use it on God? You know because Arthur here was one of the Knights.

2) Are we sure Arthur can not leave trough some other method? In the myths of Brittany the leader of the Wild Hunt is King Arthur himself, so could we use our Summer Favors to learn more about what happened then?

3) Why are we not asking if Arthur and his loyal servants count as dead or alive for the purposes of the world right now?
1) We did not already have a conversation about that but it would not count because the only promise was to not look into the mind of God which means no questions about angels no questions about the Lord if on some measure looking into these Welsh demigods breaches that I'd be extremely surprised and unsure of how that was possible.

2) as far as we can tell that this moment Arthur was injured to the point of either being so close to dead has to be indistinguishable or actually dead when taken to Avalon these demigods traveled to this place to get The Cauldron to either heal him from so close to death or resurrect him from death.

3) These demigods came here alive and 1500 years later they still appear to be. Arthur is not with them they came for the cauldron with which to heal Arthur assumably they would probably travel to Avalon in the never-never to heal Arthur using The Cauldron. So for the purposes of the world they were alive when they went in they were alive when they got captured they were alive when Saint David reinforced their cage and they're still alive right now fighting against the bonds that he helped reinforce.
 
Did we already have a conversation about using the crown here maybe interfering with our oath to not use it on God? You know because Arthur here was one of the Knights.
He isn't a Knight of the Cross right now so it shouldn't be an issue. Though if we were to ask for the divine mission of a Knight of the Cross that may go against our promise now that I think about it. The fact that they shouldn't be aware of the world's current status could be an issue however since the Crown would only tell us of their current intent when freed if any and that may change after getting updated.

Are we sure Arthur can not leave trough some other method? In the myths of Brittany the leader of the Wild Hunt is King Arthur himself, so could we use our Summer Favors to learn more about what happened then?
If he could he probably would have by now. Though using a nuke equivalents just to ask is unwise and very wasteful.

Why are we not asking if Arthur and his loyal servants count as dead or alive for the purposes of the world right now?
If they're being sealed or imprisoned then they must have some agency and ability to affect the world if freed so that probably doesn't matter really.
 
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