Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

Broadly speaking most of the things that hand you power in the form of bargains in this world cost you something, most often your humanity. Not even in the sense that the are necessarily evil but sponsored magic makes you more like the sponsor and less like your previous self. The idea that power is instrumental and does not have to change you applies to magic you learned be it path magic, martial arts or wizardry, but when you get to people holding up a contract they usually want something more.

Isn't all mortal magic explicitly like that. It's not instrumental, by using magic it shapes you to be more like the magic you're using.

It's just that with sponsored magic you're using magic that's shaped like an entity so you become more like that entity, while with more impersonal magic, you become more like the concept behind the magic you're using.
 
[X] Yes, if your brother's going to be out there looking for trouble you want him to have all the advantages he can get

flesh-crafting,do do dodo~
crafting flesh,do do dodo~

i love the smell of permanent upgrades in the morning
 
Isn't all mortal magic explicitly like that. It's not instrumental, by using magic it shapes you to be more like the magic you're using.

It's just that with sponsored magic you're using magic that's shaped like an entity so you become more like that entity, while with more impersonal magic, you become more like the concept behind the magic you're using.

Yes, but the changes tend to be a lot more directed by the wizard. Outside of Lawbreaking if they do not like the person their magic is turning them into mortal magicians can stop or pivot.
 
Yes, but the changes tend to be a lot more directed by the wizard. Outside of Lawbreaking if they do not like the person their magic is turning them into mortal magicians can stop or pivot.

I think that in canon Dresden files Lawbreaking isn't special, all magic works like that, it's just that wizards think that the end states of the feedback loop from breaking the laws are very problematic in a way that end states of the feedback from casting other kinds of magic aren't.

Harry learned to love arson early on as after he started casting arson spells he continued so he became increasingly likely to use magic to burn buildings down.

Wizards just don't consider a propensity for arson to be a capital crime like they do a propensity for murder or mind control or time travel, etc.
 
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Honestly, I'm not sure that the formula where you immediately lose power the moment you break morality is suitable. Because in this case, Good is the key to Power. And Not power equals good.
Isn't that the same? You must be Good to have Power, so having Power means you're Good? Unless you meant that the Power itself is explicitly Good, in that case I agree, but that is only the case in very religious works.
 
Aside from that though Daniel had angelic protection on account of the aggro drawn by his relation to Michael. He still has that aggro along with tons more this time around but no longer has his protection from Heaven so he could use the buff.
 
I think that in canon Dresden files Lawbreaking isn't special, all magic works like that, it's just that wizards think that the end states of the feedback loop from breaking the laws are very problematic in a way that end states of the feedback from casting other kinds of magic aren't.

Harry learned to love arson early on as after he started casting arson spells he continued so he became increasingly likely to use magic to burn buildings down.

Wizards just don't consider a propensity for arson to be a capital crime like they do a propensity for murder or mind control or time travel, etc.

That is certainly a reasonable perspective and one could certainly posit that what Harry considers Black Magic is only so distinct to his senses because of personal bias. Either way it's easier to stop doing something when it's magic in the abstract pushing you as opposed to a patron.
 
I think that in canon Dresden files Lawbreaking isn't special, all magic works like that, it's just that wizards think that the end states of the feedback loop from breaking the laws are very problematic in a way that end states of the feedback from casting other kinds of magic aren't.

Harry learned to love arson early on as after he started casting arson spells he continued so he became increasingly likely to use magic to burn buildings down.

Wizards just don't consider a propensity for arson to be a capital crime like they do a propensity for murder or mind control or time travel, etc.
Yes, all magic works like this, it is something born in the form of the wizard's will but, like a stream os water in stone, it will increasingly carves itself into the psyche of its creator as something totally logical or worse, instinctive, to do. For example, humans were not made to kill things that look like them without complications, such as hesitation or guilt, armies need an entire desensitization program to see adversaries just as enemies, so that their soldiers can fight effectively, but even so, this often fails.

But if a wizard starts using magic to kill White Court vampires (who we know still count as humans), Ghouls or other human-like beings, then they won't even have a problem doing so in the future without possible problems, just like Dresden, a good guy who always tries to hold himself to a higher moral standard, unnecessarily tortured those ghouls who participated in the attack on the Directors' training camp painfully just to vent his anger, and then didn't show an ounce of guilt or think that it was wrong and no one said anything about it.

The older wizards (White Council) don't care about this because it actually helps the wizards defend themselves and other supernatural beings are usually their enemies or predators. As for the laws of magic, breaking them and the habit of using them can cause catastrophic damage to both humanity in general and their relationships with the wizards (mental control, body transfiguration, mind reading, sociopathy/feeling completely entitled to kill other humans) or to the world and reality itself (playing with the laws of life and death, messing with the flow of time and, especially, messing with the things that prevent an infinite army of monsters of eldritch horror to break into our home).
 
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[X] Yes, if your brother's going to be out there looking for trouble you want him to have all the advantages he can get
 
If we do this should we do it all at once?

For one thing people might notice, and for another jumping up to peak human is the kind of thing to encourage unwise behavior. Those dots are great, but on a baseline chassis they don't do as much.
 
The idea that power is instrumental and does not have to change you applies to magic you learned be it path magic, martial arts or wizardry, but when you get to people holding up a contract they usually want something more.
Wizardry is pretty up there on subtly changing you, at least per what I recall of Harry's take on why the Laws exist. The whole "you can't do things with magic that you don't, on some level, believe in" thing, resulting in (most of) the lawbreaking acts being things that'll warp you into being a monster because you'll be in a spiral of self-reinforcing bad acts.

Arguably any of the routes to power that require dedicating yourself to putting a lot of effort in to achieve it will also change you, of course, it's just that there's less of an external force imposing it upon you...

EDIT: man, I should have hit next-page before writing this, because the first paragraph of my response was really pretty thoroughly covered already. 😂
 
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On one hand, being in Wales means we're still over 600 km away from the White Council's HQ at Edinburgh.

On the other hand, just being on the same island is gonna make the wizards very, very nervous. Stuff happens around Molly, and any monkey with a working sense of pattern recognition knows it's best to vacate the premises when a gorilla comes into your enclosure.

It's just that with Molly, minimal safe distance is sometimes measured in kilometers, and sometimes measured in dimensions.
 
We've got BMI on and at least some forms of precog break down directly around Molly. How would they know?

We have BMI on as normal Molly, and I don't think Lydia bothered to obfuscate our identity when buying plane tickets. Normal OSINT could tell you where Molly is headed, unless she had ATP on, which doesn't account for everyone else.
 
We've got BMI on and at least some forms of precog break down directly around Molly. How would they know?
People tracked Micheal using his truck, so it's not impossible they'd be looking for signs of Molly leaving town by various mortal means. We flew commercial so it's not even unlikely that it would work.

Unfortunately for them the clones are a thing, and no one else knows about them yet, so that's going to complicate tracking Molly that way. :V
 
We have BMI on as normal Molly, and I don't think Lydia bothered to obfuscate our identity when buying plane tickets. Normal OSINT could tell you where Molly is headed, unless she had ATP on, which doesn't account for everyone else.
Normal Molly?

People tracked Micheal using his truck, so it's not impossible they'd be looking for signs of Molly leaving town by various mortal means. We flew commercial so it's not even unlikely that it would work.
Normal OSINT could tell you where Molly is headed,
That's true but they aren't agents of the government. They are very low staff, in the middle of a war and not particularly tech savvy to begin with. Quite a few of them are barely even aware of the internet Harry having to explain the merits of a Paranet to them. I don't believe what plane tickets someone buys is publicly available either.
 
Normal Molly?



That's true but they aren't agents of the government. They are very low staff, in the middle of a war and not particularly tech savvy to begin with. Quite a few of them are barely even aware of the internet Harry having to explain the merits of a Paranet to them. I don't believe what plane tickets someone buys is publicly available either.
Random red court guys got traffic camera data from Chicago. A city where the white court and winter fey are the dominant forces. The wizards are a global power even if they aren't a conventional one, and this level of passive intel gathering on rising powers is pretty solidly in their abilities.
 

We are disguised as Molly without a demon lord's aura, rather than as someone else entirely.

That's true but they aren't agents of the government. They are very low staff, in the middle of a war and not particularly tech savvy to begin with. Quite a few of them are barely even aware of the internet Harry having to explain the merits of a Paranet to them. I don't believe what plane tickets someone buys is publicly available either.

You have a point, but we didn't exactly go to any lengths to conceal ourselves. I don't think we have any passive anti-scrying defenses either, so it's not like it would be hard for them to keep an eye on Molly (and they would dedicate someone to do that, since they have a good idea of what kind of force Molly can bring to bear given enough time). Even, or maybe especially because they're in a war and Molly is headed pretty close to their HQ; trust but verify y'know?
 
Random red court guys got traffic camera data from Chicago. A city where the white court and winter fey are the dominant forces. The wizards are a global power even if they aren't a conventional one, and this level of passive intel gathering on rising powers is pretty solidly in their abilities.
The Rampires used to be human so they are fully aware of the value in such things, may turn people who are already positioned to make such reports and are perfectly fine with violating people to get what they want. Unlike the White Council who can't just exercise their power to make people do as they will and have to deal with a tech bane.

It's hard to use the "they just delegate it to non-wizards" explanation too because they are supposed to be a secret organization. I don't remember being told that they have mundanes on staff to handle stuff like this though even if they did it wouldn't be legal and I'd have to question how they don't get caught spying on people via non-precog.

You have a point, but we didn't exactly go to any lengths to conceal ourselves. I don't think we have any passive anti-scrying defenses either, so it's not like it would be hard for them to keep an eye on Molly (and they would dedicate someone to do that, since they have a good idea of what kind of force Molly can bring to bear given enough time). Even, or maybe especially because they're in a war and Molly is headed pretty close to their HQ; trust but verify y'know?
In order to Scry someone don't you need a fresh potent focus? Though even then they are fighting a war with a global power, if they had someone capable of doing that I really think they'd be pointing them at the Reds rather than anywhere else but it's impossible to say so *shrug*.
 
Search? Like some kind of peasant?

Clearly the only real way to handle this is to anima flare near a dragon nest and run down anything that flinches.
You joke, but there are politics to consider. It would be polite to present ourselves to local Warden and greatest spirit of the land if we are planning to operate in the area. You know, generic "hi, we are in the area for a couple of days, don't be alarmed if any of your local seers start screaming about a monster being here, ongoing apocalypse of the doom of all things. It's likely going to be just Molly flexing"
If we do this should we do it all at once?

For one thing people might notice, and for another jumping up to peak human is the kind of thing to encourage unwise behavior. Those dots are great, but on a baseline chassis they don't do as much.
That's my question, yes. I want to have Tiffany upgrade us all, and the only question is - do we ask now, or later. I think this is a good opportunity.

[X] Yes, if your brother's going to be out there looking for trouble you want him to have all the advantages he can get

[X] Yes, if your brother's going to be out there looking for trouble you want him to have all the advantages he can get
-[X] Also talk about getting similar boosts for your whole circle. Offer to provide alchemical potions to help raise attributes TIffany cannot as compensations, and crafting of magical equipment later, when your forge is ready.
 
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You joke, but there are politics to consider. It would be polite to present ourselves to local Warden and greatest spirit of the land if we are planning to operate in the area. You know, generic "hi, we are in the area for a couple of days, don't be alarmed if any of your local seers start screaming about a monster being here, ongoing apocalypse of the doom of all things. It's likely going to be just Molly flexing"
Seems like the sort of busy work you send a messenger to do. Think Isabella would be up for it? Seems just dangerous enough to be exciting, but she should be fine they take halerd protection seriously in this setting. And she both under Molly's protection and the White Court.
[X] Yes, if your brother's going to be out there looking for trouble you want him to have all the advantages he can get
-[x] Also we brought Isabella go around and reassure everyone who's crystal balls are creaking or are hearing prophecies of doom.
 
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