Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

Adhoc vote count started by Anaja on May 16, 2024 at 5:53 AM, finished with 84 posts and 17 votes.
 
Developed does not equate innate inclination. It made sense that what influence she had over her incarnation would be spent on an immediately useful dual-use Lore.

You are right that Wood is life in Creation.
However, this is not Creation. Life here extends to a lot of other things, and the themes of life are broken up among all the classic elements. That (appears to be) why Wood here is virulence, its ability to cause severe disease, not life in general.


I dont think you can have it both ways either.
You cant simultaneously declare the Lores as your principal justification for deciding that Lash is inclined towards Wood.
Then ignore that Lash's portfolio does not cover Wild, or Beasts, just Flesh, which is a principally human application.

For something that is aimed at infecting living souls and spirits in Hell, the Demon Lore would actually be Spirit.
This is ritual being performed with a fey old enough to reasonably call a Rakasha, a terrestrial, and a celestial exalt. Moreover Tiffany herself is of the lineage of angels.

Unlike WoD the only consensus on the nature of reality that mattered was that of the primordials. Physics is an engine they designed, it has a right answer. This is part of why things like Ancient Sorcery get priority and Enochian fits the Old Realm precursor Molly can speak as well.

Virulence is part of what we're focusing on here, but it's closer to Tiffany's area of expertise than anything else is here.


I've read the entire Kakuri writeup in Thousand Hells.
I dont really think so.
Wind has cold in its portfolio. Kakuri is all about biting cold to the point where it has multiple references and vectors where ice is only present in some places.

The thousand hells don't have elemental exclusivity with each other.

Edit: autocorrect
 
Last edited:
[X] Plan Green Flame Rising

Taking out my other approval vote for now, since Mother Summer probably can't handle Water that well?

Edit: And unpredictability is probably more important to us than silent infiltration?
 
Last edited:
This is ritual being performed with a fey old enough to reasonably call a Rakasha, a terrestrial, and a celestial exalt. Moreover Tiffany herself is of the lineage of angels.
Point of order - Mothers here are not raksha, or not just raksha. We know that Fates are connected to Faerie Queen trios. We also know that Fates were, at some point, three surviving Maidens:
Surely the soul of a god of war that dwells in the depths of the sea should taste of brine or of blood, but in truth it tastes of sugar and brandy of flames swallowed whole. Like the fabled mead of poetry it seems to you that though the haze of and twisting flames upon your tongue a verse in seven parts emerges.:

Once there were maidens three of their kind, mourning three sisters lost,
One without name forgotten, two paying war's bitter cost.
The first set to spin destiny's thread, the second to measure,
The last to cut, ending lives with neither sorrow nor pleasure.
But whence came the thread, the world's secret treasure?
Once there were giants of earth and sea, or fire and frost
A bargain now forgotten, a bargain now broken. Lo, they are lost
So, this is a fae/raksha that is bound with / empowered by several Incarna.
 
And conceptually Lash is closest to Water. Because "being mutable and changing" is what she is. She is something new, born of something old and changed in ways never seen before, and her very existence is a change. her Lores are also about mutability. And, finally, this is about rebellion, and Water is the element for that.
There is a reasonable argument that Lash would qualify for Water, but because of her nature and her origins and life so far. Not because of her Lores; I fail to see how the combination of Flesh, Light, Longing and Awakening would do any such thing.


However, I think Mother Summer, of the Fae Who Used to Be Raksha, have a stronger claim on the element of transformation.
Remember that garden we passed through? With all the changed stuff thats still alive?
Thats some of the sort of change that the raksha used to have an affinity for, and the Fae apparently still are.

And in this particular instance, I trust Mother Summer to have a better sense of calibrating how much is needed, and critically how much is survivable for the mortal victims of Mikaboshi's Hell, than Lash.

Thats why Im voting for her to get Wood and Water, both of which are aspects that I think require precise calibration in order to get the right effects.
While the girls get Fire, Earth and Air, which I think they can afford to put maximum effort without issue.

Then either Molly or Lash have to do Water. Because fae are bad at eroding certainties. Maybe if these were old Raksha, but the modern fae are all about rules and certainties.
This is not at all true.
 
[X] Plan Green Flame Rising

Taking out my other approval vote for now, since Mother Summer probably can't handle Water that well?

Edit: And unpredictability is probably more important to us than silent infiltration?
Not at all true.

Summer's affinity for Water is strong both literally and metaphorically, and in this particular Aspect; when Titania showed up in Battle Grounds, she literally starts with wielding a torrential downpour.
And its not just Summer; literally the first time we see Lea in canon, she is threatening to turn Dresden into a dog.

Mother Summer is literally the quintessential disease brewer; she canonically has an entire cabinet full of unreleased diseases.
This is her portfolio.



2) I dont think any of the elemental aspects suggests unpredictability.
We REALLY dont want unpredictability.
Not in a disease.
 
Point of order - Mothers here are not raksha, or not just raksha. We know that Fates are connected to Faerie Queen trios. We also know that Fates were, at some point, three surviving Maidens:

We're told that Winter and Summer stole their power by sacrificing gods on their altars. It's quite possible that the surviving Maidens ended up on that altar and their power was taken and then divided between the six Fey Queens.
 
And in this particular instance, I trust Mother Summer to have a better sense of calibrating how much is needed, and critically how much is survivable for the mortal victims of Mikaboshi's Hell, than Lash.

Summer's affinity for Water is strong both literally and metaphorically, and in this particular Aspect; when Titania showed up in Battle Grounds, she literally starts with wielding a torrential downpour.
And its not just Summer; literally the first time we see Lea in canon, she is threatening to turn Dresden into a dog.
Got it, changing back to my original vote of

[X]Plan Storm, Earth and Fire
 
Last edited:
There is a reasonable argument that Lash would qualify for Water, but because of her nature and her origins and life so far. Not because of her Lores; I fail to see how the combination of Flesh, Light, Longing and Awakening would do any such thing.
Awakening 4 is animating inanimate matter. Awakening 5 is resurrection. That's certainly eroding all certainties. Flesh is all about teansgressing the limits of, well, flesh. Both of those map perfectly to Water.

However, I think Mother Summer, of the Fae Who Used to Be Raksha, have a stronger claim on the element of transformation.
Remember that garden we passed through? With all the changed stuff thats still alive?
Thats some of the sort of change that the raksha used to have an affinity for, and the Fae apparently still are.

And in this particular instance, I trust Mother Summer to have a better sense of calibrating how much is needed, and critically how much is survivable for the mortal victims of Mikaboshi's Hell, than Lash.

Thats why Im voting for her to get Wood and Water, both of which are aspects that I think require precise calibration in order to get the right effects.
While the girls get Fire, Earth and Air, which I think they can afford to put maximum effort without issue
Not transformation. Wood is more about transformation. Water is "eroding all certainties". Fae are about certainties. They are bound in Law as much as anyone we know. They are so tightly connected with the Rules, that, at their cores, they are about certainty. On a cosmetic level they are masters of mutations, transformations and inclusions, yes. But they are not Raksha from Deep Wyld. That's very much a plot point.

The fae cannot lie. The fae obey bargains they made. The fae honor the deals they make. The fae are weak to iron. They are about certainty. They cannot transgress. That is by design.

Only Molly, who is an Exalt Outside Fate, and Lash, the First Daemon, are about Water at the deepest level among those present.
 
Last edited:
Mind elaborating for someone not familiar with either setting?
In Exalted 2E, the Wyld, which was where the raksha lived, was antithetical to fixed reality.
The Balorean Crusade by the raksha(who in this AU became the Fae) dissolved 90% of Creation into primordial chaos.


In this AU's Dresden Files, that's something that remains.
A lot of fae, of both courts, shapeshift as easily as they breathe, and alter other people. Lea's first appearance was threatening to turn Dresden into a dog, something she does in Changes. Summer Lady Lily was turned into a stone statue.

The phobophages that kidnapped Molly at the beginning of this story were transformed into movie monsters.
The Redcap(probably Eldest Redcap here) shapeshifts smoothly in Cold Days.
Whatever else, the Fae remember their origins, and the thematic resonances with this aspect of Water remain strong.

We're told that Winter and Summer stole their power by sacrificing gods on their altars. It's quite possible that the surviving Maidens ended up on that altar and their power was taken and then divided between the six Fey Queens.
Thats not true.
Its more or less stated that Hecate the Triple Goddess was their patron. Primordial goddess in this setting. Thats why each Court has three Queens. There is no indication that they stole power, or were capable of stealing power; it was given to them.
 
Thats not true.
Its more or less stated that Hecate the Triple Goddess was their patron. Primordial goddess in this setting. Thats why each Court has three Queens. There is no indication that they stole power, or were capable of stealing power; it was given to them.
Here:
2009 WoJ forum post:
5. cowl with darkhallow – really? just a bunch of spirits…
If he'd succeeded, he'd have had the collective power of all of those supernatural beings and then some. He'd have been clearly stronger than the Ladies, and a full-on equal to Mab. I mean, why do you think the Erlking was summoned as part of that ritual? Because that's how the big E got so boss in the first place. :)
For that matter, how do you think the Mothers and Queens and Ladies established their original base of power? That big old sacrificial, power-sucking stone table in Tir na noth isn't there for its primitive decorative aesthetic

There was sacrifice.

In this AU's Dresden Files, that's something that remains.
Only on a very cosmetc level. On the fundamental core level, the Dresden Fae are all about the rules, the immutability is at their core. It's their main design feature.
 
Awakening 4 is animating inanimate matter. Awakening 5 is resurrection. That's certainly eroding all certainties. Flesh is all about teansgressing the limits of, well, flesh. Both of those map perfectly to Water.
Disagree.

Awakening 1 is finding people.
Awakening 2 is purification.
Awakening 3 is healing people.
Awakening 4 is temporary animation of an inanimate object.
Awakening 5 is reanimation.

I dont think that Lore qualifies as a justification.
Not transformation. Wood is more about transformation. Water is "eroding all certainties". Fae are about certainties. They are bound in Law as much as anyone we know. They are so tightly connected with the Rules, that, at their cores, they are about certainty. On a cosmetic level they are masters of mutations, transformations and inclusions, yes. But they are not Raksha from Deep Wyld. That's very much a plot point.

The fae cannot lie. The fae obey bargains they made. The fae honor the deals they make. The fae are weak to iron. They are about certainty. They cannot transgress. That is by design.
Disagree.
Wood here governs virulence. Severity of the infection, and how it manifests.
Not transformation.


Quite the opposite.
The Fae are so tightly bound precisely because they are so mutable. Thats why they manifest in such a broad array of morphologies. So they need certainties that were imposed on them from the outside.

Which is a general rule of the setting; the more power, the more tightly you are bound.
Unless you are human.
 
Thats not true.
Its more or less stated that Hecate the Triple Goddess was their patron. Primordial goddess in this setting. Thats why each Court has three Queens. There is no indication that they stole power, or were capable of stealing power; it was given to them.

Jim Butcher directly states that the Fey Queens were empowered by sacrificing entities, strongly implied to be their predecessors, on the altar the Summer Lady is later killed on.

Article:
5. cowl with darkhallow – really? just a bunch of spirits…
If he'd succeeded, he'd have had the collective power of all of those supernatural beings and then some. He'd have been clearly stronger than the Ladies, and a full-on equal to Mab. I mean, why do you think the Erlking was summoned as part of that ritual? Because that's how the big E got so boss in the first place. :)
For that matter, how do you think the Mothers and Queens and Ladies established their original base of power? That big old sacrificial, power-sucking stone table in Tir na noth isn't there for its primitive decorative aesthetic.


The Mother's power wasn't given to them, it was stolen with blood sacrifice, like a Darkhallow on steroids.
 
I know that citation.
Nothing in it says that anything involved in the empowerment of the Fae was of their own invention, or intent.

And Butcher is insistent, IC and OOC, that they had a patron.
Its a motif we see as recently as Skin Game, in Hades vault.
I dont want to go digging up the latest citations by Butcher on Fae origins; I have errands to run.

Only on a very cosmetc level. On the fundamental core level, the Dresden Fae are all about the rules, the immutability is at their core. It's their main design feature.
Disagree. Strongly.
Too many fae are about the letter of the rules than the spirit for me to give that credence.
 
Jim Butcher directly states that the Fey Queens were empowered by sacrificing entities, strongly implied to be their predecessors, on the altar the Summer Lady is later killed on.

Article:
5. cowl with darkhallow – really? just a bunch of spirits…
If he'd succeeded, he'd have had the collective power of all of those supernatural beings and then some. He'd have been clearly stronger than the Ladies, and a full-on equal to Mab. I mean, why do you think the Erlking was summoned as part of that ritual? Because that's how the big E got so boss in the first place. :)
For that matter, how do you think the Mothers and Queens and Ladies established their original base of power? That big old sacrificial, power-sucking stone table in Tir na noth isn't there for its primitive decorative aesthetic.


The Mother's power wasn't given to them, it was stolen with blood sacrifice, like a Darkhallow on steroids.
This is you misreading that citation. Power transfer does not mean unwilling sacrifice.
Here, have Butcher being explicit about this on video some three years ago; hopefully the time stamping works:


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kGgyJNMA4q8&t=2435s

View: https://youtu.be/kGgyJNMA4q8?t=2466

TLDR
The Fae Courts had a sponsor, not a victim.
And he explicitly points us at Skin Game, where we see linked triple statues of the current Fae Queens in Hades vault, pointing us at the Triple Goddess of the Greek pantheon. A primordial deity.


Now I have to run.
Ill be back in an hour or so.
 
Last edited:
Disagree.
Wood here governs virulence. Severity of the infection, and how it manifests.
Not transformation
"virulent and ever-changing". You don't to cut description I half discarding something that doesn't fit into your view. This is clearly about transformation, about evolution and life.

Quite the opposite.
The Fae are so tightly bound precisely because they are so mutable. Thats why they manifest in such a broad array of morphologies. So they need certainties that were imposed on them from the outside.

Which is a general rule of the setting; the more power, the more tightly you are bound.
Unless you are human.
"Eroding all certainties". Again, you don't get to cut parts of the text off. The fae without their core bindings is an Outsider. You can always trust fae not to lie. To uphold their bargains. Etc. They are not a good fit for Water. They are not Raksha anymore.
 
Back
Top