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Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

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uju32 said:
It will have to wait for confirmation by the QM, of course.
But I remember the QM saying that it was not an absolute prohibition.


I cant really go trawling through to check right now, but I think that was mentioned at some point.


I dont think so.

The Fallen and their Coins had no trouble getting into or out of the Greek afterlife in Skin Game, and neither did Amoracchius. The Spear of Destiny, the Holy Grail, the real Shroud of Turin and a bunch of other high-end Christian artifacts were stored in Hades' vault, and are apparently stored there when shit isnt about to hit the fan in the setting, without compromise.

Michael and Amoracchius had to run down Siriothrax to kill him, presumably in his own den in the NeverNever, and Great Dragons used to be basically cosmological constants.

These are all significantly bigger players in the Dresdenverse setting than Yomi Wan individually or collectively; Hecate of the Greek Pantheon is more or less explicitly implied to be the patron and empowerment of both the Fae Courts.
Yomi Wan doesnt really get special rules by comparison IMO.

Remember that its part of the core function of a Sword to level the playing field.
Against Fallen Angels, against wannabe gods, against vampires and Titans and Great Dragons.
Yomi Wan cannot fuck with that. Any more than it can break an Exaltation.
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The Greek afterlife isn't a hell though; it's a different paradigm entirely. Even if it was, a fallen Angel is precisely one that has separated themselves from god. Going to hell and falling may be much the same.

You don't really need to troll around that much on this, a very similar discussion took place in the section of the thread I pulled that quote from. It's possible, probable even, that the special circumstances of Molly's soul world change some factors but the reason we were given was exactly what I quoted.

The absence of god is the technically that qualifies Molly's hell as a hell at all. This requires that property to be a basic one of hells as a general category. This feature is the given source of the problem.

Given that it is explicitly known to be relevant and the reason for it isn't something necessarily limited to Molly I don't think it's wise to ignore the thematics of the interaction or the broader implications of the situation.

Yami Wan might not be able to break a sword by force, but the Mortal wielders can choose to put it into situations that cause it damage.
 
BronzeTongue said:
The Greek afterlife isn't a hell though; it's a different paradigm entirely. Even if it was, a fallen Angel is precisely one that has separated themselves from god. Going to hell and falling may be much the same.

You don't really need to troll around that much on this, a very similar discussion took place in the section of the thread I pulled that quote from. It's possible, probable even, that the special circumstances of Molly's soul world change some factors but the reason we were given was exactly what I quoted.

The absence of god is the technically that qualifies Molly's hell as a hell at all. This requires that property to be a basic one of hells as a general category. This feature is the given source of the problem.

Given that it is explicitly known to be relevant and the reason for it isn't something necessarily limited to Molly I don't think it's wise to ignore the thematics of the interaction or the broader implications of the situation.

Yami Wan might not be able to break a sword by force, but the Mortal wielders can choose to put it into situations that cause it damage.
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1) The Greek afterlife is very much a place of punishment; the punishments are just individual.
It encompasses both the Elysian Fields for the blessed and Tartarus for the wicked. As Hades explicitly reminds Dresden when he asks about Deirdre Archleone who died inside it and thus came under its jurisdiction.
Hades didn't smile, but the corner of his eyes wrinkled. "All I did was ask you a few questions. Are you ready?"
"I have one more question," I said.
"Mortals generally do."
"What will happen to Deirdre?"
Hades drew in his breath. His face became expressionless. For a long moment, I thought he wasn't going to answer, but then he said, "Relatively few new shades come into my realm these days. Foremost amongst them are those who perish in the gates-particularly at the Gate of Blood. She will remain in my keeping."
"The things she's done," I said quietly. "The people she's hurt. And she gets to skate justice?"
My host's eyes became hard, flat, like pieces of coal.
"This is my realm," he said, and there was a note in his voice like the grinding of tectonic plates.
Behind him, Spot let out a warning growl. Magnified by three throats and rumbling in that huge chest, it sounded like machinery in a slaughterhouse.
I didn't answer. At least I had enough brains to pull my foot out of my mouth and stop talking. I bowed my head, as meekly as I knew how.
Hades' voice smoothed out again, and at a gesture of his hand, Spot quieted down. "Should you survive the hour, consider your classics again, Sir Harry. And revisit the question in your thoughts."
I nodded, and thought of others in the Underworld. Tantalus. Sisyphus. Vultures tearing out livers, water that could be carried only in sieves, and ever-spinning wheels of fire, punishments tailored specifically to the soul in question.
Its as much a Hell as Molly's place. Probably qualifies more actually, since Molly isnt into Old Testament punishments.
And yet that place couldnt hold Lasciel's Coin.


2) The absence of God has never been the definition of Hell outside of Christian theology.
Certainly if it was in WoD, the entire setting would be Hell since their God apparently went out for ciggies and never came back. Which would explain some things actually :V


3) There is only one way of breaking a Sword, and that is for someone with a right to it to knowingly misuse it.
Thats something that can be done as much on Earth as it can be in Hell.
I dont really think its that sort of issue.
 
If there were a serious metaphysics problem getting a Sword in or out of Yomi Michael would be getting mental alarms. He is not, all he is getting is the same feeling he does when Harry asks him to come along and deal with a ghost or a pack of vampires. 'Not a Calling, but if you want to exercise that fancy Free Will of yours there's nothing in the company handbook against it'.
 
Still, I think retreating to the Five Courts is our cheapest option for escape.

It's less costly in time and Essence than Opening the Calibration Gate and it takes us further away than regular Ways that Lydia or Nergui could open, which would allow pursuit.

I don't want to block that, not for Micheal or his sword.

Besides, stealth mission. The Sword might be unusual enough to trigger some alarm in the Wicked City, and the sooner MIkaboshi is on to us, the less likely we are to successfully complete our mission.
 
The thing is, at a certain level of opposing forces, the smart thing to do is to not engage.

And considering Mikaboshi will not only be losing a lot of backup but might face genuine opposition from his own Hell, he'll probably think twice before going after Molly and Michael. We know we're going in to save a dude, but at this point we've leveraged enough assets to have a genuine chance at outright killing Mikaboshi, even in his own Hell. He'll have to weigh the shame of letting Molly nuke then stroll through his Hell with the very real risk of Molly straight-up killing his ass if he goes to fist-fight her, since depending on how effective this hope plague is, he might not have as much backup as he would've otherwise had in the center of his power.
 
TheGrape said:
The thing is, at a certain level of opposing forces, the smart thing to do is to not engage.

And considering Mikaboshi will not only be losing a lot of backup but might face genuine opposition from his own Hell, he'll probably think twice before going after Molly and Michael. We know we're going in to save a dude, but at this point we've leveraged enough assets to have a genuine chance at outright killing Mikaboshi, even in his own Hell. He'll have to weigh the shame of letting Molly nuke then stroll through his Hell with the very real risk of Molly straight-up killing his ass if he goes to fist-fight her, since depending on how effective this hope plague is, he might not have as much backup as he would've otherwise had in the center of his power.
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Nah.

He still has assets in the thousands, if not millions.

He can swamp us in well-armed Formor, Demons and Akuma if need be, unless our distraction-bomb works a lot better than expected.
A small infiltration group and a single Exalt can't win here, not if he's serious.

They could kill any single powerful asset, up to Mikaboshi himself possibly, but they can't win the numbers game.

For that we'll have to bring a true army from the Five Courts, if we ever plan on swallowing his Hell.

Edit: Heck, he's the master of geomancy and this is his City, if he considers it worth it he can probably blow up a section of it in a conflagration of tainted Chi. That would certainly kill everyone except maybe Molly.
 
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Again, it all depends on the effectiveness of our WMD. If things get bad enough to affect Mikaboshi's response, whether due to loss of surveillance capability or destruction of transportation or even Hell-wide rebellion, it'll get a lot harder for him to leverage his local force superiority. That was the whole point of going to Summer, to make enough trouble to either sneak under the chaos or so much trouble that Mikaboshi literally can't send his minions to swarm Molly and co.
 
Artemis1992 said:
Still, I think retreating to the Five Courts is our cheapest option for escape.

It's less costly in time and Essence than Opening the Calibration Gate and it takes us further away than regular Ways that Lydia or Nergui could open, which would allow pursuit.

I don't want to block that, not for Micheal or his sword.

Besides, stealth mission. The Sword might be unusual enough to trigger some alarm in the Wicked City, and the sooner MIkaboshi is on to us, the less likely we are to successfully complete our mission.
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I probably wouldnt want to open a gate to the Five Courts in the Wicked City, for fear of giving Mikaboshi a leg up on figuring out where it is. Its a backup option, but its not a preferred one


Lydia can Open The Way directly back into reality; we know there are gates leading straight to major cities in the Far East from the Wicked City, so its not an issue. Similarly, so can Nergui.
Once we are on Earth, then we can open a gate to the Five Courts.


Swords are only as obvious as they choose to be. Literally angelic power. People have walked through Harry's home and never noticed Fidelacchius or Amoracchius when he was guarding them. Ursiel came within yards of 3x different Swords in Death Masks and didnt realize they were there until they revealed themselves.

Nicodemus and Deirdre both came within arms reach of Fidelacchius and didnt know it was there in Small Favor until it chose to reveal itself.

The likelihood of anything in the Wicked City knowing that a Sword is present without its choosing to permit it is too low to be worth calculating. Id find it more likely that Black Mirror Incarnation would fail to disguise Molly than for Mikaboshi to detect a Sword that declined to reveal itself.
 
uju32 said:
Lydia can Open The Way directly back into reality; we know there are gates leading straight to major cities in the Far East from the Wicked City, so its not an issue. Similarly, so can Nergui.
Once we are on Earth, then we can open a gate to the Five Courts.
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That is how it works in WoD, but in Dresden Files Ways always lead through the Nevernever, so i wouldn't bet on getting out straight into reality.
 
uju32 said:
No it is not.
Things cant get worse for the individual souls. However, things can get worse for Other People. The fall of a Yama King has consequences beyond just their Hell and its inmates.


Mikaboshi canonically has more inmates in the Wicked City than Emma-O and Kakuri. That makes him one of, if not the, most powerful Yama Kings currently around; he isnt personally the fightiest(that would be Tou Mu) but he is the leading candidate for Demon Emperor, especially since the QM has house-ruled out the Wandering Overlord.

If he falls, and most or all of that power goes to another Yama King, that Yama King will definitely become far and away the most powerful. Which translates to power he can consolidate by rolling other Yama Kings, and additional influence and resources to project into the Real World.

Take a look back at what happened when the dormant Infernal shard fell into Emma-O's hands after the fall of Lanka, and the jump in power enabled him to promptly begin a military campaign to expand his reach that only ended when he ran into Winter's armies like a punch in the face.

When we choose to overthrow a Yama King, any one of them, we need to have a plan to manage the aftermath.
We dont just do it and walk away.

====
And yes, I chose the human examples deliberately.

ISIS gestated and made its bones in the power vacuum that was a result of the fall of Saddam Hussein and the mismanaged US occupation, which devastated two countries, then triggered refugee movements that have destabilized European politics for decades by empowering native extremists.

You can draw a through line from the Syrian refugee crisis that ISIS worsened to the rightwing upsurge that led to Brexit.

And that selfsame organization is currently plaguing Afghanistan, Libya, Algeria, and portions of West and Central Africa, with tentacles as far as Bangladesh and Indonesia.
Like a tumor, its metastasized across three continents.

And thats just one consequence that I can point at from the badly managed fall of a dictator of a medium-size ME nation.
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All I am hearing is an excuse to let evil flourish. There's a ton of assumptions baked in your reasoning, mostly along the lines of "but upsetting the status quo wil lead to chaos, and chaos is bad, and will lead to worse situation arising". No. You assume that "most of this power will go to one other Yama King". That's bull. Leaving aside how that's unlikely, because multiple Yama Kings will be trying to acquire it, as would Wan Kuei elders, as would positive actors trying to save as many people from the hells as possible, right now all that power is already concentrated in Mikaboshi's hands. That's the maximum of danger it can represent, because he's the most innovative and cunning of them all.

Your ISIS example is BS, by the way. Saddam Hussein's goal was not world domination by means of making the world as bad as possible to live in, to extract power directly from human suffering. Hell, ISIS, while closer to that "spherical horse in a vacuum" ideal of bad guys, still isn't a correct example.
uju32 said:
We didnt involve Dresden because he both lacks gear, having trashed his coat in Vegas, and protection against most of the potential threats.

Michael actually does have both gear and protection if he's Carrying.
And critically, he has a sense for people and things that Harry doesnt have without opening his Sight, which is contraindicated in a Hell. At least, if you want to remain sane.
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First and foremost, Michael is slow. He cannot fly, and we cannot carry him, Lydia, and the rescue target together. He moves slowly. He cannot escape to Sanctuary. He is noticeable, because swords are noticeable. The more I think about it, the more involving him is just a plain bad idea for the purpose of actually fulfilling the mission.
 
Vote closed, lets see how this goes
Adhoc vote count started by DragonParadox on May 12, 2024 at 8:44 AM, finished with 75 posts and 17 votes.
  • [X] Ask him to stay home
    -[X] This is, despite everything, a stealth mission - an insertion and a grab amidst an ongoing catastrophe. Michael is a swordsman, an epitome of a paladin. He is not suited for covert infiltration.
    -[X] You would take his advice at the planning stage, of course
    -[X] And someone needs to guard the homebase, as is.
    [x] Accept Michael
    -[x] With Amoracchius, the Sword of Love is sure to come in handy in the depths of hell
    [X] Ask a couple Hand agents to babysit the Carpenter household in his absence
    [X] STUNT: You exhale, a deep breath that turns into a shaky laugh. "Thats.....not a decision I feel currently qualified to weigh in on, Dad. But Im always happy to have you." Then a thought occurs to you. "But if you arent here, then I need to make some calls." You turn to Charity "Mom, I hope you dont mind some human house guests?"
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uju32 said:
1) The Greek afterlife is very much a place of punishment; the punishments are just individual.
It encompasses both the Elysian Fields for the blessed and Tartarus for the wicked. As Hades explicitly reminds Dresden when he asks about Deirdre Archleone who died inside it and thus came under its jurisdiction
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No it isn't. The Greek afterlife is where everyone in their paradigm went. Whether you got a punishment, a reward, or a bland nothing was based on how you lived your life.

A hell as given so far is a place that is without the touch of the divine, that feeds on its own pain and debasement. Hades isn't one because punishment isn't the whole of it, and even when it is punishing someone it doesn't do that.


uju32 said:
2) The absence of God has never been the definition of Hell outside of Christian theology.
Certainly if it was in WoD, the entire setting would be Hell since their God apparently went out for ciggies and never came back. Which would explain some things actually :V
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I just quoted you the definition being given for quest purposes.

My understanding is that the concepts hold, but that the meaning of god or the divine changes with paradigm.

In the case of the thousand hells they rejected the APoJ, literally killing his representative and cutting off the reach of the celestial bureaucracy that carries out his will. Places that not only possess vice, but willfully choose it over virtue.

Really I see it as something like cardinal directions; heaven and heavenly things are "virtueward" and hells are "viceward" on some spiritual axis made tangible in the nevernever. Hell is a state of being and a region you can go to. There are shades between that different realms fall in, but the entity known as the white god/August Personage of Jade/Brahma/Ahura Mazda is at one pole and to all appearances a bunch of little fish (relatively speaking) swarm around the other.

Which is how Hades can be a place of punishment without being a hell. On the map it's in the grey zone.

This is also why I was concerned about an angel going to hell. The metaphor becomes literal. I assume that's not enough to make one fall, but it seems like just being there should provoke some sort of clash. Especially if they're using their powers.
uju32 said:
3) There is only one way of breaking a Sword, and that is for someone with a right to it to knowingly misuse it.
Thats something that can be done as much on Earth as it can be in Hell.
I dont really think its that sort of issue.
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I don't think I communicated this very well, but my concerns were more general than that. I was envisioning a few different potential scenarios:

1) Being in hell limits the home office support available unless god is willing to break the rules, making the sword less effective and the wielder more vulnerable.

2) The Angel can do what it wants, but only because it's "bigger" than the hell. The fight goes down like a bull vs. freight train collision, but we're riding the bull at the time.

3) Being further from home and closer to the Fallen's conceptual territory makes the Angel more vulnerable independent of the other scenarios. This tempts the devil into interfering with something otherwise not of interest because the swords don't usually make themselves vulnerable like this.



DragonParadox said:
If there were a serious metaphysics problem getting a Sword in or out of Yomi Michael would be getting mental alarms. He is not, all he is getting is the same feeling he does when Harry asks him to come along and deal with a ghost or a pack of vampires. 'Not a Calling, but if you want to exercise that fancy Free Will of yours there's nothing in the company handbook against it'.
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So am I completely off in the weeds then? Does Molly know enough to say what the interaction between the things we've been told about the nature of hells and the nature of gods is in this regard?

It seems very strange that a basic property like this wouldn't matter when dealing with such direct expressions of the foundational concepts behind it.
 
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Arc 12 Post 62: Mirror Black and Mirror Bright
  • Threadmarks
    • Mirror Black and Mirror Bright ​

    25th of January 2007 A.D.

    Instead of answering right away Dad's words leave you torn. There's no one else you would rather trust at your back, Sword or no Sword, but you're reminded of how the Fellowship of Saint Giles had found you at their airport in Mexico City, following the trail of your power. How much of an unseen trail does the Sword cut though the world? The best distractions are the ones that are genuinely more urgent than the thing one is being distracted from. Even if an alarm is raised the raid might be confused the work of opportunistic shikome, but not if the Sword of Love is seen...

    "Dad..." as you speak your voice and manner changes, essence whispering a lie in the world's ear and he's looking as if in a mirror. "This is going to be..." you look at mom and pull the same trick. "An infiltration." On the last syllable you vanish entirely not from sight but awareness like you had done at New Years.

    On some level they know the armchair is occupied, but they can't acknowledged who that is until you wave. "Over here."That they only now become aware of the flare of blazing green painting the walls an alien hues, the clock and paintings in eerie sharp shadows is part of the point.

    Lost 5 Essence -> Now at 9/15 (3xBMI; ATP; Etiquette Excellency)

    "You know I have sneaked into a place or two in my time Molly. Just because knights have been entrusted with a sword doesn't mean it's the best way to get though doors. Often times it's just to walk though the front door, at times it's going though the windows."

    "Oh, she knows all about windows..."

    Declining to react to Mom's grumble on the matter of nighttime activities, not like she's caught you in years, you continue: "I am not going to sit here and say I'm going to be safe in Hell, but I know myself well enough to guess I'll be safer."

    "What do you mean?" your father asks frowning.

    "If someone shot me with an RPG or burned me in balefire or stabed me with a ancient blessed spear I'd walk that off, you wouldn't so I am going to jump between you and and danger if I see it."

    "Spear?" Once a question in that tone from Mom would have been the cue to give a dear in the headlights look and start riffling your catalogue of excuses, but that is not that day.

    You explain taking the hit from the Ra statue at the temple in Vegas, why that had been the right thing to do and bluntly that if it comes to a fight you are going to be the designated first and last line of defense. "The fewer people I have to worry about getting hit the safer I'll be Dad. I know you can do a lot of the stuff I can do, but under that armor you're a lot more likely to get hurt and I know I'm s'pposed to have faith and I know you've probably been in worse trouble than a smash and grab in the Wicked City, but I can't convince my gut of that. I'm sorry."

    At the end you aren't just playing the part, the feeling in your voice ins genuine... which of course sells the whole package better. Sometimes, not often, but sometimes you hate how good you are at getting people to see things your way. Maybe Dad sees that too as he reaches out to hug you.

    By the time you'd caught up with what's been going on back in Chicago, the softball matches, Daniel's growing proficiency at martial arts and the blood-drive Father Forthil's organized which you all quietly agree it would be best for you not to participate in it's the middle of the afternoon. So it's not really that remarkable to see a kid eight or nine years old bouncing a ball off the garage door, even though you've never seen her before, at least not until you notice the pointed ears peeking out of the mop of messy hair that marks the girl as a faerie.

    Regained 6 Essence -> Now at 15/15 (CSR)

    She giggles, the sound for all the world matching her apaprence. "Shucks, you noticed, I was hoping They'd notice first. Wanted to see what they'd do."

    Remembering something Lash had said you blurt out: "The guardians? You wanted them to react?"

    "Not like they'd do me any harm when I mean none," the feyling shrugs impishly, earning a disaproving look from Mom. "Ahem... The Mother bids you greetings Molly Carpenter and asks that you join her in the brewing of that which you asked of Summer if that is your wish."

    Mother Summer! That's... she's... Thankfully you manage to keep the babbling internal as Usum interjects: "No less than you are owed Dread Majesty."

    How do you want to appear before Mother Summer?

    [] Take the Long Road as most suplicants do

    [] Part all the layers of reality at once, you could do with some parctice opening Calibration's Gate

    [] Write in

    OOC: The Summer Court owed you a favor, not Titania, the Summer Court.
     
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  • Threadmarks
    • BronzeTongue said:
    So am I completely off in the weeds then? Does Molly know enough to say what the interaction between the things we've been told about the nature of hells and the nature of gods is in this regard?

    It seems very strange that a basic property like this wouldn't matter when dealing with such direct expressions of the foundational concepts behind it.
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    It does matter, it just wouldn't inherently harm the Sword or else Michael would get a warning

    Rolls
    Molly: 1, 2 3
    ATP +1 Success for Moly since neither of them can see you
    Michael: 1, 2,3
    Molly gets 5 successes over first -> Challange goes to her
    Willpower to keep it together
     
    DragonParadox said:
    Mother Summer! That's... she's... Thankfully you manage to keep the babbling internal as Usum interjects: "No less than you are owed Dread Majesty."
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    Oh boy. Better bring our A game to this one, we caught someone's eye. Suddenly very glad we're near peak human alchemy; that should interact with our crafting charm narratively when making an artifact plague right?


    DragonParadox said:
    [] Take the Long Road as most suplicants do

    [] Part all the layers of reality at once, you could do with some parctice opening Calibration's Gate
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    I'd like to show off, but that kinda tips our hand and we might need the essence.
     
    [X] Part all the layers of reality at once, you could do with some parctice opening Calibration's Gate
     
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