Army of Liberty: a Fantasy Revolutionary Warfare Quest

I didn't think we'd have an actual, real life fucking monarchist in this thread, but I guess go off?

God, are we going to get tired memes about how the French Revolution was all about the Mob Ruling Things And Messing Up (TM) despite everyone making the major decisions being (mostly) well-educated lawyers with long, elaborate justifications for why they're doing what they're doing? Which doesn't mean they were doing the right thing, far from it in many cases, but this sort of, "That's what you get when you listen to the unwashed mob" is historically bankrupt as a perspective.

The Laurent said:

I didn't think we'd have an actual, real life fucking monarchist

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...I'm not? I was specifically talking about in the context of this story. Right now, in this moment, I think it's a mistake for Arne to abolish the monarchy. Which is clearly where the Quest is heading.

The Laurent said:

making the major decisions being (mostly) well-educated lawyers with long, elaborate justifications for why they're doing what they're doing?

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And we're going to pretend things like the Insurrection of August 5th and the September Massacres weren't a thing? That the san-cullottes leadership (such as the Cordeliers Club) didn't leverage angry mobs of Parisians to push the Convention around? I'm not saying - and never said - that it was all some 'this is what you get when you listen to an unwashed mob', and I'd ask you to maybe dial back the projection a little?

There's a great deal of space between what I was saying, and what you've decided I think based on no evidence whatsoever.

Kylia Quilor said:

...I'm not? I was specifically talking about in the context of this story. Right now, in this moment, I think it's a mistake for Arne to abolish the monarchy. Which is clearly where the Quest is heading.

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For what reasons? Does Arne need more monarchs actively plotting treason against the people?

Citizen Clotaire actively plotted treason against Arne with the aid of foreign nations. Over two thousand people died on the Mauvais Plains, and that was far less than would have died if his attempt to betray the nation had not gone so awry and run into General Durand, who stopped it quite short. Moreover, when we debated this the first time we got the rundown of other candidates, and even if monarchy was not invalid, it's not exactly a very flush list of people who wouldn't do the exact same shit as him.

Lemme drag up the list of potential monarchs we got when we asked about this post-Mauvais, I did remember going, "Wow, what a sorry lot" anyway.

To outline, thinking from purely practical grounds beyond any moral objections to monarchy.

Photomajig said:

Dutch asked: Just for the sake of the discussion. Who exactly would be the king's heir should be push for his replacement?
His Majesty Clotaire VIII and the queen, Clotilde-Adélaide Augusta, have four children. The Grand Dauphin is Clotaire-Roland de Parvain, heir apparent to the throne. He is not favored by the Constitutionalist cause due to being unpopular with the Loutharcian mob for his perceived arrogance, holding staunchly conservative views, and being married to a foreign princess (Eliška Agnieszka of Vechia).

The King's second son, Clovis-Thibauld Henri de Parvain, Prince de Parvain (whose name was carried by the HM's 2nd Elven Hussars at Mauvais!), is generally thought to be more suitable. The Prince de Parvain is known as an intellectual who patronized the Constitutionalist leader, the Duc de Haute-Plaisset, when he served as a liberal minister in the royal cabinet in the 1720s. He has avoided entanglement with the Constitutionalists and kept well out of the political sphere, however, for better or worse. He remains close with his father, though, which is increasingly seen as a problem.

The King's third son, Augustin-Grimoald Hugues de Parvain, Prince de Orferre, is somewhat of an unknown quantity. They are fairly young (only 29, compared to his brothers' 65 and 40), known to have poor relations with his father and mother, and rarely seen at court. He notably has never visited his father in his "exile" in La Durance. He served with some distinction in the War of the Grand Alliance, so military types tend to have a better image of him. For most people, he is a non-entity. For some Constitutionalists, this is a benefit, but most consider him unsuited for the throne at a time when the monarchy needs powerful symbols to survive.

The couple also have a daughter, the young princess Ansgarde Bathild de Parvain. The Constitutionalists have never considered her for the throne, mainly because of her youth (she's 10), but also because they have an official policy of favoring male heirs for reasons of continuity, stability, and keeping the conservative nobility from all packing up and joining the royalist cause.

There are then various nephews, cousins and more distant scions of the family line. The Constitutionalists don't consider them as viable candidates for the throne, as succession in Arné has almost always passed from father to son directly.

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These are not very promising lists of candidates. The closest thing to a "actually not suck" candidate is, maybe, Augustin-Grimoald, but being unknown doesn't mean he actually has congenial beliefs that would fit with any sort of liberty, and the Constitutionalists are rather openly...

"He also formulated the Constitutionalist idea of democracy, which rests on the shoulders of a small but politically active electorate - men and women of property and sufficient income. While this makes no distinction of race, these requirements heavily favor elves, wealthier halfling peasantry and established human-dwarven urban bourgeoisie - and mostly means men of these groups, since women's access to property and independent income has been possible only for a short while now."

Uh, this. Disenfranchisement of most of the population, and most women.

So going along with this would be essentially empowering people who would honestly rather people like Raka Durand (before she became a General and thus presumably an acceptable person) not get to vote. So an alliance with them was already a rather awkward thing, all things considered.

[X] The Laurent

[X] Go on the offensive.
-[X] Assault Daurstein.

I don't think Daurstein itself is all that vital of a defensive position. It's not significantly more defensible than Martelnac for example and is perhaps less so if you count the modest contributions of the Martelnac militia. It's not strategically relevant on its own and we shouldn't place much value on the city itself. The only real gain from moving on Daurstein is dispersing the Army of the West to deny Von Trotha use of its guns. After capturing or destroying the artillery and dispersing the other remnants we should fall back to link up with the 6th Army. I don't think we have any good reason to linger in Daurstein while waiting for 6th Army or the assembly to reinforce us.

I'm also skeptical the assembly is even able to do anything to reinforce us in a reasonable timeframe. I'd expect it to take them weeks to assemble another scratch force like 6th and send it our way when accounting for the time they'll spend arguing about it. While the Constitutionalists are a doomed faction, they've still proven that they can drag out proceedings, and I suspect they hate us enough to intentionally drag their feet.

[X] Go on the offensive.
-[X] Assault Daurstein.

The mighty T-Rex makes solid arguments.

[X] Go on the offensive.
-[X] Assault Daurstein.

Hmm, I do like this idea somewhat more. Assault Daurstein specifically to disperse the remnants of the Army of the West to deny von Trotha any of them as potential additions to reinforce his army.

Hmm, actually, if we end up marching and attacking right away, I wonder if the Army of the West remnants will even have had time to replenish their supplies and munitions. We did capture their baggage train after all. Then again, presumably a border town has some munitions in store, but would it be enough to supply two units of royal artillery and a number of infantry regiments who also expended a lot of their munitions?

There are multiple races that are potentially useful as a frontline unit and they all have different advantages. One of these is their ability to earn/retain Experience.

To better judge this, i will try to carry out a simple thought experiment. We will assume that we have an infantry regiment fighting through a campaign. This regiment rolls 500 wound rolls throughout this campaign and earns 30 XP from attacking during that campaign. It will get reinforced by trained Reinforcements, who are always reducing the regiments xp, because the regiment starts the campaign at 60 XP for itself already.

Lets check out how their ultimate status looks:


Devils would definitely be very scary if they werent so rare...

And I think I owe the Elves an apology. They arent the shitty and useless troops i initally thought them to be. They will creep up in experience past everyone else except devils, the question is just how long that is.

I'm really hoping we can get a couple of Devil units sooner or later, given this we have about their status right now.

Photomajig said:

The trauma of the Deluge caused most devils to become largely apathetic and purposeless. Only with the Great Revolution of Arné in 1732 did many surviving devil groups begin to reconsider their situation and what they might become on the surface.

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Although, from how Devil was a starting pick for us in character creation and the talk at the end of the Deluge of Hell info about how Norn declared that any and all Devil refugees would be welcome within their borders, Arne and Norn seem like they have the most notable Devil minorities, which hopefully means we'll have the opportunity to do some significant recruitment.

[x] Remain on the defensive.
-[x] Leave the army and ride to Antreville.

[X] Go on the offensive.
-[X] Assault Daurstein.

Kylia Quilor said:

I still object to getting rid of the monarchy, but that's not even the problem now. The problem is letting the mob run the show, and that sort of thing has never worked out for a country, just about... ever?

A person is smart. People are indeed dumb, panicky and dangerous animals. That's why you need to provide a layer of two of insulation - you want a government that's responsible to the people, not one that's forced to change on a time to the mercurial whims of an easily led populace.

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Ah, that old trope. It's amusing how this logic is only ever very selectively applied. If we were to consistently apply it, is a collection of persons inside a political party not "people"? "A parliamentarian is smart, but parties are dumb panicky animals"? From this follows the need for a further insulation between the whims of parliament and government, ad infinitum until you stop having groups decide things. It's authoritarian logic, historically used to justify the suppression of demonstrations by painting groups as necessarily irrational.

Perhaps one would argue that winning a parliamentary seat necessarily requires decent intelligence? I would challenge this explanation to look at the least informed members of a given parliament. Winning a seat takes rhetorical skill, not book smarts. Why would winning the faith of the "easily lead masses" make one necessarily immune to group hysteria and less fickle? Is there some magic about having received votes?

If a group can be smart or dumb depending on circumstances and organization, then the blanket statement that "people" can't be trusted with leading policy falls apart. Is a student union debating human rights necessarily dumber than an individual representative because they are a group? Is a community aid organization necessarily less informed than the freshest politician? People can be panicked, irrational and mislead, but groups of politicians aren't immune to this either.

WGDragoon said:

I don't think Daurstein itself is all that vital of a defensive position. It's not significantly more defensible than Martelnac for example and is perhaps less so if you count the modest contributions of the Martelnac militia. It's not strategically relevant on its own and we shouldn't place much value on the city itself.

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I agree the position isn't particularly vital. But taking a forward position to defend gives us one vital thing, space. It forces any enemy army to win 2 battles (Daurstein and Martelnac), rather than 1. If we weren't extremly lucky, taking Daurstein would have been another battle against the western army. Space can be traded for time, and occupied land undermines the willingness of Norn to continue fighting, eventually forcing a capitulation. Daurstein is nowhere near enough for that, but it's a buffer and a necessary step for future offensive operations deeper into their territory. If we can get space for nearly free, why shouldn't we take it? I'm glad about any opportunity to buy more time.

WGDragoon said:

I'm also skeptical the assembly is even able to do anything to reinforce us in a reasonable timeframe. I'd expect it to take them weeks to assemble another scratch force like 6th and send it our way when accounting for the time they'll spend arguing about it. While the Constitutionalists are a doomed faction, they've still proven that they can drag out proceedings, and I suspect they hate us enough to intentionally drag their feet.

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I'm not expecting a quick decision either. But the parliament is in charge of the armies, and needs to be informed about the changing situation of the ground. If we aren't writing them directly, we need to wait for them to hear about this on their own and reach a decision. Informing them promptly will accelerate this decision, and might allow them to raise new armies fast enough to enable a victory against Norn. If they take longer to give us more troops, we are worse off.

Red Rationalist said:

I'm not expecting a quick decision either. But the parliament is in charge of the armies, and needs to be informed about the changing situation of the ground. If we aren't writing them directly, we need to wait for them to hear about this on their own and reach a decision. Informing them promptly will accelerate this decision, and might allow them to raise new armies fast enough to enable a victory against Norn. If they take longer to give us more troops, we are worse off.

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taking the initiative allows us to put our own spin on whats happening and hopefully does keep them calmer than if we just pushed onward silently with them hearing about it from rumours

NSchwerte said:

taking the initiative allows us to put our own spin on whats happening and hopefully does keep them calmer than if we just pushed onward silently with them hearing about it from rumours

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Yeah, that too. We are stepping somewhat of the limits what our orders actually tell us, so demonstrating that we acknowledge the assemblies authority goes a long way towards reassuring them. We are basically throwing them a bone here by presenting a version of events where their authority over field commanders is still unchallenged rather than the triumphant commander ignoring the assembly for the sake of an opportunity, which helps their legitimacy.

[X] Go on the offensive.
-[x] March for Engelsburg.

Audacity will save the Fatherland!

[X] Go on the offensive.
-[X] Assault Daurstein.

I'm honestly baffled at people who don't even want to give surrender a chance when fighting enemies whose Morale is so low in a situation where we can press the issue.

Like my vote doesn't actually rule out an assault, even if it might slow it down by a tiny bit. Nor does writing to the Assembly slow us down at all, because we're writing and then doing it anyway.

[X] Go on the offensive.
-[X] Approach Daurstein
--[X] Write the assembly that the moment for offensive action against Norn is here, and fleeting fast. Inform them of the state of the western army. Ask for reinforcements to secure the Nornish border and, should they deem it necessary, start proper offensive operations. Explain that the 5th is at the border of Norn around Martelnac, taking Daurstein as a defensive buffer with the goal of stopping any enemy from even stepping on Arnése soil. Stress your determination to abide by any decision and order the rightful government of the people will give you. You are merely obeying the spirit instead of the letter of your orders for a good defense by taking the rapidly changing local situation into account, not deciding how the war should be waged.
--[X] Tell Guillory to join you at Daurstein. Stress that any future offensive must pass through Daurstein, with Arnesé having the opportunity to secure a buffer. Say that you won't let the opportunity to pass and make the need to be together for Trotha's potentially superior numbers to be overcome very clear. Explain your reasoning, thus letting him on on the logic and hopefully softening any hint of presumption therein.
--[X] Send couriers/demands ahead: Offer very generous terms to the enemy officers, very, very generous terms to the enemy soldiers, and generous and reasonable terms to Daurstein ahead of your arrival, even if it might mean a slight delay. Make it clear that it is not your intent to war on the People of Norn, and that insisting on fighting will only cause unnecessary loss of life.
---[X] Potential for promise of parole from the officers involving a promise not to fight against Arne for the rest of the war, and surrender of the two field artillery, but not the artillerymen, who are free to go with the rest. These are negotiable points, but something must be done with the artillery pieces, or at least that seems to be the case.
--[X] Make sure this information is widely known, using more than one messenger, so that it cannot be hidden from either the populace or the common soldier.
--[X] Hold off on the decision on whether to assault or set up a siege until actually at Daurstein, and judge based on reactions to the surrender requests, weather factors, etc, etc.

The Laurent said:

I'm honestly baffled at people who don't even want to give surrender a chance when fighting enemies whose Morale is so low in a situation where we can press the issue.

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Moral considerations aside, it's also a rare opportunity to seize a city without much bloodshed, after we just finished an incredibly bloody battle. It's weird from a pragmatic point of view.

[x] The Laurent

Analysing the situation a bit further: The 6th army is noted to be untrained, and is already running late. The initial orders said:

Photomajig said:

Your orders are simple: Nornish invasion possible. Mobilize V. Army & prevent enemy advance beyond Antreville. III. Army to march for Damterre & invade Gelle-Musselmond in event of war. VI. Army to muster at Veyard & march for Antreville by 12th latest. The patrie calls upon you to fulfill your duty.

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They are 4 days late on the 16th. Aside from the weather, I think this points at them having bad drill, so I would expect them to be slowed down. Under normal circumstances, I would expect them to arrive sometime around 9 days from now, but further delays are possible, especially if they neglected drill while on the march.

Fortunately for us, we can simply stay in one place. Trotha will probably come to us, and also face delays due the information about the defeat slowly trickeling out plus the weather. Assuming a morderately optimistic scenario, we spend a week staying at Daurstein, prompting Trotha to attack us. While I wouldn't presume the exact action number allowed, simply staying at Antreville for a week gave us 6 actions. Subtracting one for the surrender negotiations plus surrounding the city, 5 army actions are on the card.

We are certainly able to found another artillery regiment with our captured cannons, mentor the 251st for the sake of having a useful charge unit, leaving us with 3 unaccounted. 2 on drill, 1 one recruitment seems like a smart choice. 5 artillery units, a well-drilled army, slightly inferior cavalry and a better infantry corps would allow rough parity on our own against the army of the centre.

Alternatively, we are sitting on 130+155 influence, totalling 285. With plenty of time to spend, I would also suggest now is the time to buy horse artillery for the 10th. It will wipe our influence available, but this a very good pick. Not only would this add to our ability to push, it would also allow us to found 2 foot artillery regiments, now achieving parity between us and Wachenheim. With Granger being a genius, he should be able to retrain in time. Combined with a bit of drill, this would open up the option of taking the fight to Engelsburg, especially if the 6th secures the rear at Daurstein.

[X] Go on the offensive.
-[X] Approach Daurstein
--[X] Write the assembly that the moment for offensive action against Norn is here, and fleeting fast. Inform them of the state of the western army. Ask for reinforcements to secure the Nornish border and, should they deem it necessary, start proper offensive operations. Explain that the 5th is at the border of Norn around Martelnac, taking Daurstein as a defensive buffer with the goal of stopping any enemy from even stepping on Arnése soil. Stress your determination to abide by any decision and order the rightful government of the people will give you. You are merely obeying the spirit instead of the letter of your orders for a good defense by taking the rapidly changing local situation into account, not deciding how the war should be waged.
--[X] Tell Guillory to join you at Daurstein. Stress that any future offensive must pass through Daurstein, with Arnesé having the opportunity to secure a buffer. Say that you won't let the opportunity to pass and make the need to be together for Trotha's potentially superior numbers to be overcome very clear. Explain your reasoning, thus letting him on on the logic and hopefully softening any hint of presumption therein.
--[X] Send couriers/demands ahead: Offer very generous terms to the enemy officers, very, very generous terms to the enemy soldiers, and generous and reasonable terms to Daurstein ahead of your arrival, even if it might mean a slight delay. Make it clear that it is not your intent to war on the People of Norn, and that insisting on fighting will only cause unnecessary loss of life.
---[X] Potential for promise of parole from the officers involving a promise not to fight against Arne for the rest of the war, and surrender of the two field artillery, but not the artillerymen, who are free to go with the rest. These are negotiable points, but something must be done with the artillery pieces, or at least that seems to be the case.
--[X] Make sure this information is widely known, using more than one messenger, so that it cannot be hidden from either the populace or the common soldier.
--[X] Hold off on the decision on whether to assault or set up a siege until actually at Daurstein, and judge based on reactions to the surrender requests, weather factors, etc, etc.

[X] The Laurent