- Location
- Germany
I continue to believe that the Exalted are only useful in their occult skills here.
Harrowmont couldn't handle using Essence kn a ritual, so Molly would be reduced to advising him.
Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)
- Thread starter DragonParadox
- Start date
- Crossover Fantasy
Harrowmont couldn't handle using Essence kn a ritual, so Molly would be reduced to advising him.
That is not true.
Because we have seen both Molly and Lydia involved in the Cauldron magical ritual that created All Watchful Bane the house god in Beckitt's flat, and Molly+Lydia were able to safely integrate Essence into that ritual and boost it.
In fact, they provided the vast bulk of the successes that created Bane.
So no, you're objectively wrong about this.
- Location
- Germany
That ritual had a caster who wasn't bound to act literally by the book.
And an artifact that could hold Essence, so it didn't have to flow through a mortal.
We have heard again and again how unhealthy Molly's typf of nuclear hellfire soul would be for vampires draining us, so I severely doubt Harrowmont can handle it.
No they are correct Bane is a malevolent deity made in that ritual. A god of thresholds no doubt but a malevolent and dangerous entity they very much are. Adding the essential essence of death and Corruption to a weather ritual meant to wash away chaos is going to kill everyone and everything a Barren corrupted Wasteland perfectly orderly in the stasis of corrupted death.
Here:
The Harrowmont option is there to explicitly to attempt to distract Sandra.
It makes no mention of actually expecting to disrupt the ritual.
By comparison, the second option is the one that actually tries to tear the chaos ritual apart.
And it says everyone is involved by default.
That one was cast by minor talents with no formal training, just muddling through.
And back then Molly was neither initiated into Ancient Sorcery, nor was she a Path Sorcerer. We'd just gotten back from Cleveland IIRC. But they managed anyway.
This one is supposed to have a full White Council wizard of a decade and half's experience around to help.
Harrowmont, for his faults, actually has formal training.
And Molly is now both a Path Sorcerer AND an Ancient Sorcerer, and has sufficient knowledge of how this works to use TTC to duplicate the kinds of magic tools that you use to handle that sort of energy safely. She did it for Arawn.
There's a reason her presence is critical if we actually want this to work.
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This is not true.
Bane is a guardian deity, a house god.
He is NOT malevolent. Lydia even made a whole argument about it IC.
Dark is not evil.
This is not true.
Using Molly's Essence to create Bane has not turned the apartment building into a charnel house.
Using it to create and upgrade Last Station has not corrupted Potter, nor has it turned the Dragons Nest into a toxic dump that poisons everyone who steps foot there.
Using Molly's Essence to exorcise Lash from Dresden's body did not burn him to a crisp.
Using it to create Lash's body did not turn her into a creature of corruption that taints everything it touches.
Using her Essence to create a talisman of protection for Lilly has not made her a great lady of corruption and excess either.
Using it to brew malcoffee has not harmed any of the people who consume it, whether Dresden or Charity.
Essence does not work the way you are saying.
You are just wrong.
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Didn't Dresden literally take like enough lethal damage to outright kill a normal human during that ritual. Also dark is not evil death is not evil inherently speaking corruption is just change in a dark Direction but it doesn't change the fact that washing away chaos using a tide of death and Corruption is going to really be terrible.
Also that is how Essence works the nature of the essence influences the capabilities and the nature of said essence. That's why dragonblooded can't make Arcana without Elemental features, why infernos can make ephemera and abyssals can make Horrors. That's why solars have the the ability to harm a modern creatures of Darkness but no one else has their own creature of Darkness charm anymore. That's why the Abyssals can inherently make vampires. It's why Sidereals are capable of manipulating magic difficulties and Paradox.
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Dresden took that damage because EVERYONE thats that tightly bound to a spirit takes that damage when you try to remove it.
If a Solar or a DB or a Lunar cast the same spell, he would have suffered the same damage.
Thats the nature of the spell and situation, not the nature of the Essence powering it.
An Infernal casting Death of Obsidian Butterflies doesnt come with bonus corruption in addition to all the stabby butterflies.
An Abyssal casting Flight of the Brilliant Raptor doesnt come with extra death.
Essence doesnt work that way.
Essence does not work that way.
Literally nothing in the books to support any of this. Certainly nothing in this Quest to support it either.
If this was ever true, Molly would never have worked on the Dragons Nest in the first place. Or cooked for the Jade Dogs.
You dont even have to take Molly's word for it; she's literally delivered a magically-produced car to Mab, magically-produced and enhanced AFVs to Odin, and a Splendor to Lilly. She even had the Archive examine the Splendor.
Noone has ever suggested that involving her Essence in stuff works that way.
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Didn't Dresden literally take like enough lethal damage to outright kill a normal human during that ritual. Also dark is not evil death is not evil inherently speaking corruption is just change in a dark Direction but it doesn't change the fact that washing away chaos using a tide of death and Corruption is going to really be terrible
You're not talking about ancient sorcery here or in your examples by the way those are all using charms to perform an external task you're talking about adding our raw Essence into this ritual.
Do you not understand what Essence is the raw energy not the charm is that work off the energy the raw stuff because we don't have any ability to interact with this ritual outside of a guiding capacity without adding the raw stuff.
We can make splendors because we have a charm that allows us to transform regents and craft them into new forms we do not inject our direct unmodified or and unfiltered Essence into the things we're crafting.
Also ancient sorceries always been a direct transformation of essence that's why it's an extended roll. You remove the nature of the essence when you cast any level of sorcery spell that is how they've always worked.
They used a special relatively major artefact for it, and even then, and with supreme rolls, including leadership rolls, and with corwn question used specifically for preventing it blowing up, it nearly blew up. And was able to handle only 3 motes, and make a very minor god. Not a global city-wide effect.
1)It wasnt an artefact.
Inherited magic tool with Enchantment 1/2, but not an artifact, or really all that special for serious mages.
I quote:
Remember that Cauldron are an organization of minor talents with no formal training or much in the way of resources.
There's a reason they need something like this to raise wards around homes.
Like I said, at the time this was done, Molly literally only had Occult 5 and an Excellency.
No Path Sorcery, no Ancient Sorcery.
Nothing.
2) You are mistaken. Here are the rolls involved in creating All-Watchful Bane
No Leadership roll. No roll to keep it from exploding. Everybody appears to have rolled their magical paradigm.
We chose to power it with 3 motes(Molly 2: Lydia 1) because it was a magically significant number, not because we thought too much would blow up the Cauldron either.
We did ask a Crown question, but it was for optimizing the ritual for safety. And it essentially just had us subtract 2 successes from our final roll.
3)We currently have TTC, and the Brass Courts demonstrate large scale handling of magical energy with technological aid.
Thats really not an issue.
No more than Molly's shintai form seizing reality by the scruff of the neck and shaking it until it does as its told.
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1) You asked, I answered.
Sorcery has always involved adding our raw Essence into things and manipulating it there.
We do it in Ancient Sorcery, we do it in Path Sorcery; Exalts explicitly spend Essence instead of Mana for path sorcery
The Exalted are capable of learning static magic either prior to or after Exaltation, if they have the Hedge Magic Merit (see Chapter Two). Knowing static magic does not prevent a person from Exalting as a Solar. Exalted hedge magicians don't and can't have Mana; they can use Essence in place of all of its functions.
Dragon Kings use their own inherent magic instead of hedge magic.
Dragon Kings use their own inherent magic instead of hedge magic.
2) Like I have pointed out before, if Essence worked the way you are claiming, the combination of Molly's Infernal Essence and Lydia's Death-aligned Essence would have turned Beckitt's apartment building into a charnel house the moment we tried to use it in a ward-raising ritual. Instead of creating a house god.
Anyone who drank Molly's malcoffee would die screaming if Essence works the way you keep insisting.
We've literally cooked for people with TTC.
I mean, come on.
3) Hedge Sorcery/Path Sorcery/Linear Sorcery is explicitly allowed as an option to all Exalts in ExWoD.
Nowhere in the rules does it say that shit like, say, Weather Working Path will contaminate the environment if an Infernal or an Abyssal or a Liminal does it. Or that Fortune Path will poison the recipient because Infernal Essence Bad.
Hell, the only nuke spell in the spell list for Ancient Sorcery is Rain of Spiders, and that directly dumps 5 motes of Essence, a third of Molly's current max, into the heavens in a 1 mile radius around the sorcerer.
It doesnt poison the environment either.
4)Holden's Rules on Splendors:
Focus the Power: Having gathered the power, the Exalt must then carve it into a mystic token.
This is an extended Intelligence + Occult roll against difficulty (4 + Splendor rating), made at
one-hour intervals. Success requires a total accumulation of (Splendor rating x 7) successes.
Each roll requires the expenditure of 5 Essence, making this a process best performed in a
Dragon Nest. Abandoning the project before gaining enough successes (due to distraction,
attack, or more urgent business) means the Exalt must start over, and the rating of the Splendor
she can make is reduced by one. A botch ruins the Splendor and disperses its power uselessly. If
someone's soul was being shaped, this grants them an appropriately nasty Flaw like Nightmares,
but another try can be made after the end of the current story.
This is an extended Intelligence + Occult roll against difficulty (4 + Splendor rating), made at
one-hour intervals. Success requires a total accumulation of (Splendor rating x 7) successes.
Each roll requires the expenditure of 5 Essence, making this a process best performed in a
Dragon Nest. Abandoning the project before gaining enough successes (due to distraction,
attack, or more urgent business) means the Exalt must start over, and the rating of the Splendor
she can make is reduced by one. A botch ruins the Splendor and disperses its power uselessly. If
someone's soul was being shaped, this grants them an appropriately nasty Flaw like Nightmares,
but another try can be made after the end of the current story.
5)That is not true.
You dont even need a Charm to use Ancient Sorcery as an Exalt, you just need to learn the spell. The only sorcery-associated charm in the Infernal repertoire only helps you reduce the cost of spellcasting.
You are making claims I can find no support for in the books.
One of those rolls that you quoted has someone trying not to be incinerated by essence of the mixture. The only reason it didn't end disastrously is because we have a high occult score and knowledge necessary to denature our Essence which yet again is what splendors do because they're solidified ancient sorcery.
The reason ancient sorcery or just sorcery in exalted is capable of doing so many outside of a specific exalt's ability things is because it's denatured. Functionally speaking an exalts essence and Essence spent on Ancient sorcery are different things even if one is turned into another it's the difference between a solar Essence and a quintessence despite the exchange rate being the same they are completely different things.
The reason ancient sorcery is capable of making the solar demigods capable of making pillars of Darkness a mile tall and a mile wide, the the Divine Beast Moon demigods capable of sailing a ship on clouds, making the chosen of the a fate capable of turning their skin to invulnerable bronze and steel is because it denatures their inherent Essence to be able to turned in a new way. That's why only Sidreals have charms capable of messing with Paradox and changing Magick, that's why only the solar still have smiting creatures of Darkness charms despite the fact Dragon blooded used to have those as well.
Solar essence, lunar essence, Abyssal essence, infernal essence, Dragon blooded essence these are all individual Essences despite being inherently the same substance that is what allows them all to use Ancient sorcery but it has to be denatured and that's what allows ancient sorcery to do everything it does, otherwise it would be downed and affected by the inherent Natures of the Essences involved like that example that you said about corruption damage on obsidian butterflies or something like that they wouldn't be able to cast obsidian butterflies at all without ancient sorcery.
Tldr the difference between ancient sorcery and a charm is the denaturing of essence. This denaturing allows the essence to perform things outside of a normal exalts remit.
Edit: you no longer need a charm to learn ancient sorcery but you still need to learn ancient sorcery even if that source is your own memories in the case of celestial exalted but for everyone else they still need to learn how to cast ancient sorcery. The remit of changing the nature of your essence is occult the knowledge necessary to cast all forms of hedge magic and ancient sorcery. The reason people do not die when they drink malcoffee is because we aren't giving them a bolt of pure corruption in the form of raw infernal essence.
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On the matter of is Harrowmont can use essence:
He has Mana Manipulation 3, that is why he can do rituals at all so as long as everyone is careful not to hand him a live wire and instead just slowly bleed the power into his working he can get some use out of it. This would not be one ritual for him, it would be too if there are Exalts with the first being 'ground and attenuate the power of the divine'.
- Location
- Germany
Then I guess staying for the ritual has its merits, but I still value the time more.
The ritual will take time, Molly regaining the spend Essence will take more time, gathering the Reds as soon as it is dark will take time...
That brings us far too close to the doomclock, while also letting Sandra spring more distracting surprises.
Time is very much against us here and we'd sacrifice the whole afternoon.
The ritual will take time, Molly regaining the spend Essence will take more time, gathering the Reds as soon as it is dark will take time...
That brings us far too close to the doomclock, while also letting Sandra spring more distracting surprises.
Time is very much against us here and we'd sacrifice the whole afternoon.
Flavor text on the roll caption was my impression.
Besides, its a ward.
A magical countermeasure meant to fend off hostiles in a deathworld for magic-users.
One of the proposals were for enough energy to give intruders full body burns THROUGH their clothes.
In no universe is handling that much power safe for mortals without special measures.
And we're not even talking about Dresden's wizard-strength wards.
Or Lydia's god-built and wizard-repaired wards.
The more power you expect your wards to handle, the more dangerous they potentially can be to set up.
Like being a home electrician; electricity may be routine, but most homes have enough power to kill you if you are careless.
All this? Has no textev supporting it. No matter how reasonable it sounds to you or me.
And some of it is actively contradicting some of the lore in Exalted vs World of Darkness, since Sidereal Secret Arts, which are Sidereal Charms powered by Sidereal Essence, can explicitly be taught to other Exalts to the 3rd and 4th tier, even if they cant master the whole charmtree.
There is also nothing in the Ancient Sorcery writeup I can find that says that Essence denaturation is a prerequisite to using non-Exalted magic. Of any sort. Or that appears to mention Essence denaturation at all.
Nor have you explained why Essence spent on Ancient Sorcery and Essence spent on Path Sorcery, or contributed to actual wizard-tier Magick rotes should work any different from each other.
Or why Shih Arts work with Essence as well, despite not being Charms either.
And I will remind you that Essence does not have 1:1 equivalence with any other form of energy, as demonstrated by the difference in results between Solars giving supernaturals Essence, a Liminal doing so, and a Sidereal getting bitten by a kuejin.
Its bullshit thats modified by observation and source, and its effects can vary widely.
The 2-dot When The Tigers Run Free only costs Molly 2m of Essence, but is enough to literally fracture reality and cut off a mile wide chunk of the world in an unbreakable bounded field with no ins or out.
But you will also need 2m to use Cold and Lonely World to curse one man to anonymity for several days.
Thank you for the clarification(s).
It is currently around 1.30-2pm according to the news report we saw earlier.
Nightfall is in roughly 3 hours local time.
Thats enough time to get everything done, counting an hour for the ritual, thirty minutes for the rainstorm to hit, and time for Molly to recover while making phone calls on rendezvous point for the Rampires.
- Location
- Germany
That early?
Yes
Sunrise and sunset times in Las Vegas, January 2007
Calculations of sunrise and sunset in Las Vegas – Nevada – USA for January 2007. Generic astronomy calculator to calculate times for sunrise, sunset, moonrise, moonset for many cities, with daylight saving time and time zones taken in account.
www.timeanddate.com
Sunset on January 13 2007 is 4.47pm local time.
[X] Plan Don't wait for nightfall and waste another 6 or so fucking hours
[X] Let Harrowmont go aheal with his ritual just as you make your way into the tunnels, hopefully stretch Sandra's attention to the breaking point
-[X] Do so right now, the Reds on our side go in as soon as there's a cloud-cover, Molly and the cyborgs take point for now
-[X] Leave several of your party members behind
--[X] Harry, a proper wizard used to this kind of magic
--[X] Tiffany for her understanding of old powers
--[X] Mutt and Adkins, for further guarding and occult insights respectivly
[X] Let Harrowmont go aheal with his ritual just as you make your way into the tunnels, hopefully stretch Sandra's attention to the breaking point
-[X] Do so right now, the Reds on our side go in as soon as there's a cloud-cover, Molly and the cyborgs take point for now
-[X] Leave several of your party members behind
--[X] Harry, a proper wizard used to this kind of magic
--[X] Tiffany for her understanding of old powers
--[X] Mutt and Adkins, for further guarding and occult insights respectivly
Votes are still very close but not a so I'm going to leave this up for two hours or so then get to writing.
