Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

[X] Yes, you want to know whatever she can tell you about yourself and your Exaltation. You'll make her a talisman to resist her Mantle today

No gods no masters.
Better to have Ivy call the shots than the Archive.
[X] Yes, you want to know whatever she can tell you about yourself and your Exaltation. You'll make her a talisman to resist her Mantle today
-[x] Include a feature that it will self destroy if Ivy is put under sufficient coercion.

I don't want this become a extra reason for people to bully her.

[X] Yes, you want to know whatever she can tell you about yourself and your Exaltation. You'll make her a talisman to resist her Mantle today
-[x] Include a feature that it will self destroy if Ivy is put under sufficient coercion.
-[x]Can she provide an elder vampire? Our stock is starting to run low.
 
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Fëanor is one of my favorite fleshed-out examples of what a "typical" Solar Exaltation turns people into: Great at many different things, helps out civilization at large with invention of everburning lamps and the telephone palantir, loving family man, clearly not on the side of Morgoth, in fact enthusiastically going to war against Morgoth, and still leaves immense suffering and tragedy in his wake.
 
[X] Yes, you want to know whatever she can tell you about yourself and your Exaltation. You'll make her a talisman to resist her Mantle today
[X] Use the crown question to ask what the conditions to obtain clearance are
-[X] And make Archive her talisman today
 
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[X] Yes, you want to know whatever she can tell you about yourself and your Exaltation. You'll make her a talisman to resist her Mantle today
 
I find the idea pretty abhorrent of letting an ancient dead Wizard dictate what Ivy can and can't do with her power, or what the world of today needs to survive.

I'd break the Mantle's will and instruction completly and leave it all in Ivy's hands, if that is within the scope of crafting, @DragonParadox
Mental immunity against something fundamentally connected to her mind sounds hard, but not impossible?
 
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I find the idea pretty abgoorent of letting an ancient dead Wizard dictate what Ivy can and can't do with her power, or what the world of today needs to survive.

I'd break the Mantle's will and instruction completly and leave it all in Ivy's hands, if that is within the scope of crafting, @DragonParadox
Mental immunity against something fundamentally connected to her mind sounds hard, but not impossible?

At that point it would be easier to exorcise her mantle, trap it and the try to alter it before somehow setting it back in. Note that 'somehow', it would be easier, by no means easy.
 
This has never been true. Classical heroes are supposed to be good. Its just their idea of good does not match with ours. When Odysseus tricks people that is a virtue just as ragnar swearing a blood oath for honour is a virtue.

People don't tell stories about people that are despicable to them morally at least as anything more than a morality cautionary tales. They can stumble and fail but ultimately they are supposed to be admirable.

Lots of myths of classical heroes act out the 'hubris begets nemesis' moral 'lesson', but having their heroes commit the sin of hubris and so be cast down by the gods for it.
 
[X] No
-[X] Take some more time to study this before taking this head on (Advise that she try to learn more about said limits and why they might be there)
 
[X] No
-[X] Take some more time to study this before taking this head on (Advise that she try to learn more about said limits and why they might be there)
 
Eh... Jason and Medea would like a word. It is pretty clear from the framing of the tragedy that both the constant oath breaking and Medea killing her own kids are meant to be bad in various ways, the story it still about them, about their grand failings.
That is a particular tragic play. It only happens after they have their adventure where they are heroic and smart in their main story.
It can only be a tragedy if it was bad things happening to good people. Jason and madea despite all the murder they commit and deciet are heroes because deciet and murdering your foes is considered good a quality.

Eurpidis play is a tragedy because the heroic character is doing a bad thing by breaking his oaths. It wouldn't work if they weren't admired beforehand. Its like those evil superman stories. They only considered in the context of big good superman.

So those things they do with argonauts, many of which are worse than leaving your wife are considered heroic because they are done to their enemies. A different mindset, because we would consider that evil while that was considered good by them.
 
[] Yes, you want to know whatever she can tell you about yourself and your Exaltation. You'll make her a talisman to resist her Mantle today
 
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Is there any reason we can't use the scene as a focus to use the crown to ask either 1 "How to circumvent the access protocols"/"What are the access protocols?" if we are being selfless or 2 "What information is being withheld from us?" if we are being selflish.
 
That is a particular tragic play. It only happens after they have their adventure where they are heroic and smart in their main story.
It can only be a tragedy if it was bad things happening to good people. Jason and madea despite all the murder they commit and deciet are heroes because deciet and murdering your foes is considered good a quality.

Eurpidis play is a tragedy because the heroic character is doing a bad thing by breaking his oaths. It wouldn't work if they weren't admired beforehand. Its like those evil superman stories. They only considered in the context of big good superman.

So those things they do with argonauts, many of which are worse than leaving your wife are considered heroic because they are done to their enemies. A different mindset, because we would consider that evil while that was considered good by them.

Well yeah, the point was not that Jason and Medea were always evil, it is that they were flawed from the start and the thing is you can see the through-line from the original myth to the tragedy. Medea partaking in the killing of her brothers is called out as part of the reason why she is shunned by many Greeks which is foundational to the conflict that leads to all the oath breaking, host killing and child killing.
 
The opposition is always a problem. I think boiling the frog would ultimately prove more effective than unleashing an immediate galvanizing threat in that regard.
Have there ever actually been examples of qualitative changes to systems that worked like this in history? Honest question. As far as I recall, there have always been a war / revolution / death involved.
We 'just' need to be better than them in a conflict they're not familiar with rather than triggering magically enhanced ww3.
Why would a force that has an institutional advantage meet us on the field where we are better at? Why wouldn't they trigger magically enhanced WW3 if the result of not doing so is losing?
I feel pretty confident in saying that we won't maintain total control if we start facilitating the release of the exaltations, and that the consequences of losing any of them are substantially worse than losing a handful of nuclear weapons per head.
I feel that the position that we need total control is frankly misantropic, self-centered, and paranoid in the classical sense of the word.
Self importance isn't the driving factor; this only tangentially about Molly.

The universe rolled the dice and passed the DC for a good celestial. This doesn't change the risk of making another random draw. Not all of them would be bad, but the consequences of anything short of all of them being good could be catastrophic.

Then to top it all off, even if no Kemmlers exalt, you end up with the situation @Exmorri outlined while the exalts start to push their different agendas on the world. Then we'll either end up fighting each other or forming a new deliberative equivalent and become a de facto autocracy.
No. These aren't independent probabilities. The outcome of each previous exaltation in regards to the character of the exalt affects the odds of the next exalt ending up similar to previous ones (or at least within tolerable limits). Existence of a politically active E5 Molly in the setting would acts as both a difficulty adjuster and dice adder to the extended roll of "does the new infernal end up on the side of angels?". Difficulty adjuster because with sufficient prep the forces prevalent in the world (White Council, fey courts, various human organizations) would know to refer the exalt to Molly. And dice adder in the sense that a cool sempai E5 Molly consistently spending multiple dice to make the new exalt see the global situation her way, or at least in a way comparable to her morality would be very hard for said new exalt to resist. I mean, Sidereal fellowship and indoctrination worked even in the Age of Sorrows.

And, again, all your concerns fully apply to humans with full wizarding talents. In fact, they apply more to them than to exalts:
1) There's no easy way to detect a wizard, unlike new exalts (or even most older exalts).
2) The number of full wizards is not limited, known, and is ever expanding. New wizards can be born to anyone, regardless of previous connections (see Charity, Elaine).
3) Even completely untrained wizards are capable of brainwashing people, and, from what I understand, summoning demons (not outsiders) is, if not easy, then possible for someone untrained.
4) Even not very strong wizards are capable of producing great effects, and killing people from afar (see the villain of the first book, Victor something, I forget the name - and yes, I know, he was connected to Nemesis)
5) Wizards can be infected by Nemesis, or tainted by other outsiders
6) Wizard magic is self-reinforcing in a way that makes one misstep very likely to lead to a path to full-on moral monsterhood and soul corruption, unlike exalted charms
7) Wizards at high level are capable of feats even individual exalts would struggle with (time travel, Demonreach is quite impressive)
8) Besides full wizards you also get minor talents, who are also dangerous (more so to themselves in many cases), and ae even harder to locate.

If White Council as an organization has been proven viable for wizards, then I don't see why something similar cannot be set up for exalts. Yes, quite possibly with dragonblooded wild hunt wardens who chop off heads of new exalts who break certain Laws.
Again Molly's judgement is abnormal and not truly standard because she is the player character in a quest. Otherwise I would 100% agree with you here.
I am sorry if what I say next is offensive, but bullshit. If we are using doylist perspective, then we the players are not special. We are not paragons of morality. We are not saints, geniuses, and examples of the best of the best of humanity. Most of us are not good enough to be exalted. Almost certainly a theoretical amalgamation of all our virtues with only a mean value of our vices is not good enough to be exalted. The stakes we are playing for are far lower, the choices less weighty and the decisions less measured than what an exalted would face.
 
Well yeah, the point was not that Jason and Medea were always evil, it is that they were flawed from the start and the thing is you can see the through-line from the original myth to the tragedy. Medea partaking in the killing of her brothers is called out as part of the reason why she is shunned by many Greeks which is foundational to the conflict that leads to all the oath breaking, host killing and child killing.
My point is they are celebrated despite their flaws not because of them. They are heros with flaws.

So the sentiments that classical heroes were great and not good is false. They are aspirational and moral heroes as well, not just dudes who did great things.
 
My point is they are celebrated despite their flaws not because of them. They are heros with flaws.

So the sentiments that classical heroes were great and not good is false. They are aspirational and moral heroes as well, not just dudes who did great things.

Oh sure, no one is celebrated because of their flaws, but flaws are more common than in later Christianized hero's tales, there is more acceptance of being less good so long as they are great.
 
Why would a force that has an institutional advantage meet us on the field where we are better at? Why wouldn't they trigger magically enhanced WW3 if the result of not doing so is losing?
A lot of supernatural forces are very invested in human society and don't want to break it all down.

The Red, White and Jade Court all enjoy and profit from the current societies standing as they are.
It would take an extreme level of things getting worse for them to decide to break those societies.

See it like reacting to Climate Change.
Yeah sure, not changing things might destroy us sometime soon, but that doesn't mean most people are okay with not driving cars and flying planes. Similarly most vamps won't want to break the society that guarantees their luxury, food-supply and all that.

Admittedly, there are factions less caring about society, but some of the really big ones are entwined with it.
I am sorry if what I say next is offensive, but bullshit. If we are using doylist perspective, then we the players are not special. We are not paragons of morality. We are not saints, geniuses, and examples of the best of the best of humanity. Most of us are not good enough to be exalted. Almost certainly a theoretical amalgamation of all our virtues with only a mean value of our vices is not good enough to be exalted. The stakes we are playing for are far lower, the choices less weighty and the decisions less measured than what an exalted would face.
We have distance.
That's something incredibly valuable in making these decisions.

If I were Molly, I sure as hell wouldn't actually have put myself through training from hell under Divsimar for a little bit extra-power, or regularly visited school despite having better things to do.

It's trivially easy to do the right thing when all it requires is setting an X in a copied quote, not so much when you actually have to do it every day.

That goes from minor things like getting some regular exercise, which literally anyone capable of reading should know is a good thing, yet far from everyone does (For example I'm sitting here after work, catching up on my forum, instead of doing a little jog like I maybe should), to much bigger things like risking your life for a good cause when it is not just a calculation of values and dice, but the actual prospect of going out and facing fear, pain and potential death.

The same distance also matters in other situations. It's easier to forgive an annoying character you read about than a person who actually hurt you, personally.
We are the armchair-politicians, builders, thinkers, everythings here and from our perspective everything is easier than it would be for a real person in a real situation.
 
A lot of supernatural forces are very invested in human society and don't want to break it all down.

The Red, White and Jade Court all enjoy and profit from the current societies standing as they are.
It would take an extreme level of things getting worse for them to decide to break those societies.

See it like reacting to Climate Change.
Yeah sure, not changing things might destroy us sometime soon, but that doesn't mean most people are okay with not driving cars and flying planes. Similarly most vamps won't want to break the society that guarantees their luxury, food-supply and all that.

Admittedly, there are factions less caring about society, but some of the really big ones are entwined with it.
That's the right word - invested. They do not value human society for its inherent value. They value it for what it provides them - creature comforts, power, safety, sources of slaves and food. If said investment turns sour, they would rid themselves of it, or, in a different analogy, as major shareholders, try to turn the company in a direction they like more. Or intentionally burn it down if the alternative is going to jail for tax fraud / money laundering / treason.
 
That's the right word - invested. They do not value human society for its inherent value. They value it for what it provides them - creature comforts, power, safety, sources of slaves and food. If said investment turns sour, they would rid themselves of it, or, in a different analogy, as major shareholders, try to turn the company in a direction they like more. Or intentionally burn it down if the alternative is going to jail for tax fraud / money laundering / treason.
As I meant to say with the climate-change-analogy, very few people seem willing to burn down their comfort even if the alternative is things getting worse.
 
[X] Yes, you want to know whatever she can tell you about yourself and your Exaltation. You'll make her a talisman to resist her Mantle today
[X] Use the crown question to ask what the conditions to obtain clearance are
-[X] And make Archive her talisman today
 
Do you think it is a good idea for the Archive to push past her limiters?

[] Yes, you want to know whatever she can tell you about yourself and your Exaltation. You'll make her a talisman to resist her Mantle today

I mean, the mantle is great and all but is it good for her?

I don't really think so personally, all dresden files mantles seems to come with so many string attached I would rather go for the scissors than anything else.

[X] Yes, you want to know whatever she can tell you about yourself and your Exaltation. You'll make her a talisman to resist her Mantle today
[X] Use the crown question to ask what the conditions to obtain clearance are
-[X] And make Archive her talisman today


As I meant to say with the climate-change-analogy, very few people seem willing to burn down their comfort even if the alternative is things getting worse.

Part of the problem about the climate catastrophe (the original name the scientists wanted to give it, until fossil fuel lobbies did a propaganda campaign to make it appear less than it was) is that the ones in the best position to reduce it are also the one with the least incentive to do so, namely, the petrol lobbies and other big fossile fuel players, on the corporate scale and country scale.

That really doesn't help the comparison to the case of what would the exalted do, because their incentives would be different.
 
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Why are y'all so hellbent on forcing the issue right now? We have no clue what kind of consequences there may be for Ivy or the Archive itself if she starts fiddling with its inner workings.

Being careful and methodical is not a bad thing, you know?
 
So, if Archive identified us through Primordial speech... I think she might not have identified us as an exalt, but as a baby Primordial.
 
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