Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

[X] Actually I have a better solution than that mirror...
-[X] Empathy and Occult excellencies
-[X] Offer a 5 dot arcana body
-[X] STUNT: "I said you both would be fine, and I meant it. And part of fine is giving you tools to defend yourself against the fallen. So, we are not done. This is just a temporary vessel, not another prison. Lash, I am going to build you a body."
 
[X] Nothing

I think this is sort of a test.

We might be able to give Lash a body now, but maybe it would be better for us in the long term as an Exalt to know that we can let go sometimes. That not everything we do has to rely on our power and that we can rely on our friends to stand strong without us.

Even without the curse of the Solars we should still learn not to hold the world too tightly or we will just repeat the mistakes of the Yozi down the line.

Lash gets a body after she has had time to settle her own sense of self and wants. It will be a body better suited to her as herself and as such harder to corrupt by say playing on her sense of body dysmorphia. Which she does now have because she just went from thinking of herself as a piece of Lasciel's skin to thinking of herself as a self.
 
[X] Actually I have a better solution than that mirror...
-[X] Empathy and Occult excellencies
-[X] Offer a 5 dot arcana body
-[X] STUNT: "I said you both would be fine, and I meant it. And part of fine is giving you tools to defend yourself against the fallen. So, we are not done. This is just a temporary vessel, not another prison. Lash, I am going to build you a body."
 
I was right, and this was Lash route choice for Harry's dating sim life.

So, my argument for why we need to make Lash a body, and make it as strong as possible and as quickly as possible:
1) We know that she's a creature of darkness, and we know that she's metaphysically as powerful / strong as
ancient vampires, Maeljin Incarnae, Yama
Kings, Malfeans, the greatest of Black Spiral Dancer
heroes, other Exalted, and the like. Jaggling or Gaf-
fling-level Banes and all fomori are always lesser beings.
So, she's an incarna-level (WoD classification) spirit. That's the same grade as naagloshii. This means that a) she can't be bound by ancient sorcery binding we have, and b) she's likely noticeable

2) We don't know how far senses of the Fallen extend, but it's fairly likely that if Harry comes back home, Lasciel will notice that he isn't bound to Lash anymore. If he brings Lash back with him, Lasciel would also know, even if she doesn't now. There is, however, a non-zero chance that if Lash doesn't come back to Harry's apartment, Lasciel would assume, at least for a time, that we destroyed Lash while freeing Harry. That's still alarming, but far less dangerous to Lasciel and all of Denarians in general than Lash free and rebelling against her.

3) Following from point 2, we, that is Molly and Exalted, seem to have one advantage over most of the setting - we are operating on a righter time scale. Plans and counter plans of the forces of Dresden verse are usually a thing of months and years. We are operating on the scale of days to months to enact global change. This gives us an advantage here - people, from denarians to Black Council, will be after Lash as soon as they know about her. Given that Anduriel is a thing, it's very likely that Harry is under shadow surveliance if not constantly, then at least from time to time, and same with us. Lash's existence will be discovered soon, if it hasn't been discovered already. There will be people trying to destroy or steal her. And certainly there will be people trying to prevent her from getting power and her own body. This means that the sooner we make said body, the better. And this body would need to be able to defend itself against... well, denarians at least.

4) I assume that we'll be making the body in our kingdom, or using resources of our kingdom. In two weeks time, Council's best diplomats (read "spies") will be sent into our kingdom. If we are doing a major working involving uprooting celestial order, it's better to do so now, before we have eyes watching and ears listening. It provides at least some manner of secrecy and surprise.

5) AP-management. We have 6 points + 2 for furthering the projects we do with those 6. This month we don't have anything directly looming over our head. White Court minor talent genocide plot has been disarmed, naagloshii has been driven away, Red court is unlikely to be react within a month, White Council infiltrators still don't know we know about them. We are in AP hell near-permanently. This is one of the few months in the quest where there is a bit of a lull and we are free to be proactive, instead of dousing fires all around us.

6) The longer Lash has a body, the more time she has to acclimate to it. And whatever comes with it (like, I wouldn't be surprised if she was chosen by fidellachus as a knight of the cross).

7) Harry, as any true noir detective should, gets a secretary. Or we get a new circle mate. Because yeah, she's not going free exactly. Lash in a 5+ dot body is a being that could probably keep up with at least Lydia, if not Molly (for a certain amount of time).
 
5) AP-management. We have 6 points + 2 for furthering the projects we do with those 6. This month we don't have anything directly looming over our head. White Court minor talent genocide plot has been disarmed, naagloshii has been driven away, Red court is unlikely to be react within a month, White Council infiltrators still don't know we know about them. We are in AP hell near-permanently. This is one of the few months in the quest where there is a bit of a lull and we are free to be proactive, instead of dousing fires all around us.
We do have preparations to make for WC infiltrators.

We also still have an Outsider infiltrator inside the White Court.
We told Lara about that one, so she may or may not be dealing with that.
 
5) AP-management. We have 6 points + 2 for furthering the projects we do with those 6. This month we don't have anything directly looming over our head. White Court minor talent genocide plot has been disarmed, naagloshii has been driven away, Red court is unlikely to be react within a month, White Council infiltrators still don't know we know about them. We are in AP hell near-permanently. This is one of the few months in the quest where there is a bit of a lull and we are free to be proactive, instead of dousing fires all around us.
What about the families of the Red Court captives?
 
[X] Nothing

6) The longer Lash has a body, the more time she has to acclimate to it. And whatever comes with it (like, I wouldn't be surprised if she was chosen by fidellachus as a knight of the cross
You guys keep saying this, but it'd be surprising on every level outside of cliche trope predictions.

It's not like people have a big good/evil switch and turning it from one side to the other makes them happy to work with angels.

Lash doesn't so much have baggage as she does freight with heaven. Accepting a Sword at all, much less this soon, is a lot to ask.
 
What about the families of the Red Court captives?
Molly believes that there's no time pressure here, because red court honestly could care less about families of mortals. And there's an option of hiring mercenaries to do the extraction. @DragonParadox would it cost AP to pick up a phone and call Monoc securities to negotiate low value hostage extraction from red court territory?

We do have preparations to make for WC infiltrators.

We also still have an Outsider infiltrator inside the White Court.
We told Lara about that one, so she may or may not be dealing with that.
I think Lara is at least somewhat competent - we don't need to do everything ourselves. But, let's calc things:

6 AP + 2 to extend actions of those 6 AP.

School - 1 AP
Kingdom management, including setting things up for White Council delegation - 1 AP, maybe 1 AP + 1 malcoffee AP to do stuff like take Lydia to the city of Endings, or brother Divsimar to the city of swords

These two are pretty much the only ones that we need/have to do. This leaves us with 4 AP + 1 or 2 bonus AP.

Warding the homes of minor practitioners and our friends (ideally) - 1 AP + 1 bonus AP. That's needed to secure the home front and prepare for possible Red Court retaliation and further kidnapping attempts at least from their homes
Making Porter the train body - 1 AP? Not sure about the costs here. It's a fairly large scale project, but we have MHM to speed those up, and our kingdom to rely on. This also goes to improving home front security.
Preparing for Christmas, making gifts for everyone and such - this might not be strictly needed, but I really want to, and christmas is an important holyday.
Making Lash a body - the final AP. Actually, @DragonParadox does making Lash a body here and now cost us AP? If so, how many?

If we want to handle WC spies / traitors this turn, we could delay Porter's new body fairly easily, as he operates on longer timeframes, is pretty happy with his current situation, and Last Station is fairly secure as it is. I am loathe to forgo Christmas preparations with minor prodigies and gadgets for everyone, but that can be done too.
You guys keep saying this, but it'd be surprising on every level outside of cliche trope predictions.

It's not like people have a big good/evil switch and turning it from one side to the other makes them happy to work with angels.

Lash doesn't so much have baggage as she does freight with heaven. Accepting a Sword at all, much less this soon, is a lot to ask.
On one hand, absolutely. On another, Sanya got his sword pretty soon after dropping the coin. And yes, that's different, I understand. But I could see Heaven arranging something. Not knighthood almost certainly, but some manner of parole officer / check for her.
 
I don't agree with most of Yog's argument, but I definitly agree that more time for her to get used to her body and prepare for what's to come is a good thing.

The Nickleheads won't wait until Lash is good and ready. If they can get to her while still in the mirror, great.
If they can get to her while fresh to her body, also good.
Not like Nick wants a fair fight against a prepared foe, when he has other options.

Edit: The Sword-idea seems completely absurd though.
It's a weapon for humans, not whatever Lash will be.
 
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It's not like people have a big good/evil switch and turning it from one side to the other makes them happy to work with angels.

Lash doesn't so much have baggage as she does freight with heaven. Accepting a Sword at all, much less this soon, is a lot to ask.
Thankfully no one needs Lash to become a saint. Just being greedy and selfish is more than enough. As it would ensure that she would not work with Fallen out of her own free will.
 
On one hand, absolutely. On another, Sanya got his sword pretty soon after dropping the coin. And yes, that's different, I understand. But I could see Heaven arranging something. Not knighthood almost certainly, but some manner of parole officer / check for her.
It's so different the comparison isn't worth making.

I can see them checking on her, but a parole officer doesn't typically come with a gun and badge for the parolee.
 
Molly believes that there's no time pressure here, because red court honestly could care less about families of mortals. And there's an option of hiring mercenaries to do the extraction. @DragonParadox would it cost AP to pick up a phone and call Monoc securities to negotiate low value hostage extraction from red court territory?

No, though it would cost money, maybe enough to burn a dot of resources in the short term (I'd roll resources for it). You can get it either by expanding Chicago Synthetics or start doing inter dimensional trade.
 
As to how many AP you would need to make a Simulacrum;

First, the Exalt plans out a design for the Arcana. This is an extended roll of Intelligence + Occult against difficulty 9, with each roll made at the end of a week of intensive design work, which must accumulate a total of (Arcana's rating x 3) successes. A botch means the Exalt must discard all successes and start over. In the case of Solars or Infernals designing golems or simulacra with a technological rather than sorcerous basis (a big robot servant, or a human-like android), Technology may be substituted for Occult. In the case of Solars making simulacrum clones, Science may be substituted for Occult.

[...]

Simulacra, once again, can be produced through a number of approaches. Animated masterworks require an extended Dexterity + Crafts roll against difficulty 9, made at one-week intervals and requiring a total of (Arcana's rating x 4) successes. Androids require Intelligence + Technology against difficulty 9, made at one-month intervals, and demand a total of (Arcana rating x 3) successes. Clones require Intelligence + Science rolls at difficulty 9, made at one month intervals, and demanding a total of (Arcana rating x 3) successes. Patchwork corpse-people need an extended (Dexterity or Intelligence) + Medicine roll against difficulty 7, made at one-day intervals, and requiring a total of (Arcana rating x 7) successes. Finally, the manikin-husk simulacra constructed by Heart-Eaters demand only a single successful difficulty 9 Dexterity + Craft roll, taking the better part of an afternoon to complete. A botch at any point ruins the entire project, forcing the Exalt to discard her incomplete simulacrum and to start over from scratch with new materials and a new plan (with the exception of clones; she can re-use a clone lab or Apparatus, and must simply acquire a new tissue sample).

Taking into account that Molly does not sleep at all an AP is worth a week so it depends how many times you guys think you have to roll the dice to hit the target number of successes for the level of construct you want to make. Going off what would be easiest for you guys to do, which is an animated masterwork: Base DC 8 and 9 respectively:
  • 3 Dot: 12 Design and 9 crafting successes
  • 4 Dot: 16 Design and 12 crafting successes
  • 5 Dot 20 Design and 15 Crafting successes
 
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[X] Yog

I voted to let the lovebirds have their intimacy defining moment, now it's the time to be a exalt.
 
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As to how many AP you would need to make a Simulacrum;

Simulacra, once again, can be produced through a number of approaches. Animated masterworks require an extended Dexterity + Crafts roll against difficulty 9, made at one-week intervals and requiring a total of (Arcana's rating x 4) successes. Androids require Intelligence + Technology against difficulty 9, made at one-month intervals, and demand a total of (Arcana rating x 3) successes. Clones require Intelligence + Science rolls at difficulty 9, made at one month intervals, and demanding a total of (Arcana rating x 3) successes. Patchwork corpse-people need an extended (Dexterity or Intelligence) + Medicine roll against difficulty 7, made at one-day intervals, and requiring a total of (Arcana rating x 7) successes. Finally, the manikin-husk simulacra constructed by Heart-Eaters demand only a single successful difficulty 9 Dexterity + Craft roll, taking the better part of an afternoon to complete. A botch at any point ruins the entire project, forcing the Exalt to discard her incomplete simulacrum and to start over from scratch with new materials and a new plan (with the exception of clones; she can re-use a clone lab or Apparatus, and must simply acquire a new tissue sample).

Taking into account that Molly does not sleep at all an AP is worth a week so it depends how many times you guys think you have to roll the dice to hit the target number of successes for the level of construct you want to make. Going off what would be easiest for you guys to do, which is an animated masterwork: Base DC 8 and 9 respectively:
  • 3 Dot: 12 Design and 9 crafting successes
  • 4 Dot: 16 Design and 12 crafting successes
  • 5 Dot 20 Design and 15 Crafting successes
Ok, so, 20 successes at base DC 9. Question - does TLF apply? We are essentially creating an environmental protection suit for Lash the spirit.

If we are doing crafting inside our kingdom, we could be doing this in our shintai form for +4 dexterity. Does this apply before or after excellencies, I forget?

BSM, CCC and WHWH definitely apply. So base -4 DC, +2 dice, assuming no stunt. Dexterity + craft = 8. Excellency multiplies this by 2, for 16. + 2 WHWH = 18 base dice. 22 with shintai bonus, 24 if we use a 2 dice stunt. Difficulty is either 5 or 3, depending on if TLF applies. So:
rollsDC 5DC 3
base form, no stunt, 18 dice13.817.8
base form, with stunt, 20 dice15.419.8
shintai form, no stunt, 22 dice16.921.8
shintai form, with stunt, 24 dice18.523.8
So, if TLF applies, then we should be expected to knock out both design and creation with one roll each, if we use shintai. I also forgot and dont' have time to factor for -1 DC for using court aesthetics if we use shintai.

Without shintai we have to likely make two rolls for design. So, I would assume 1 AP + 1 bonus AP? Maybe +2 bonus AP, not sure. Still, that's affordable.
 
[X] Yog

@Yog
I'd ask you not to commit to a 5 point body until we get some IC idea of what the result might be.

@DragonParadox
Can we get, with Lash's help, an estimate for what the different levels of Arcana-bodies might mean?
 
Ok, so, 20 successes at base DC 9. Question - does TLF apply? We are essentially creating an environmental protection suit for Lash the spirit.

If we are doing crafting inside our kingdom, we could be doing this in our shintai form for +4 dexterity. Does this apply before or after excellencies, I forget?

BSM, CCC and WHWH definitely apply. So base -4 DC, +2 dice, assuming no stunt. Dexterity + craft = 8. Excellency multiplies this by 2, for 16. + 2 WHWH = 18 base dice. 22 with shintai bonus, 24 if we use a 2 dice stunt. Difficulty is either 5 or 3, depending on if TLF applies. So:
rollsDC 5DC 3
base form, no stunt, 18 dice13.817.8
base form, with stunt, 20 dice15.419.8
shintai form, no stunt, 22 dice16.921.8
shintai form, with stunt, 24 dice18.523.8
So, if TLF applies, then we should be expected to knock out both design and creation with one roll each, if we use shintai. I also forgot and dont' have time to factor for -1 DC for using court aesthetics if we use shintai.

Without shintai we have to likely make two rolls for design. So, I would assume 1 AP + 1 bonus AP? Maybe +2 bonus AP, not sure. Still, that's affordable.

TLF does not apply, Molly does not conceptualize all of physical reality as a hazardous environment.

[X] Yog

@Yog
I'd ask you not to commit to a 5 point body until we get some IC idea of what the result might be.

@DragonParadox
Can we get, with Lash's help, an estimate for what the different levels of Arcana-bodies might mean?

Lash cannot help with this unfortunately, this is all well outside of her understanding of herself. Keep in mind that the process starts with: 'what if I made a made a woman out of clay... but not all the way, an almost human to serve as an arcane vessel for you?' This is prime Promethean working here of the kind only the most ambitions, not to say mad, magicians have ever attempted.
 
@Yog
I'd ask you not to commit to a 5 point body until we get some IC idea of what the result might be
If there are no objections from others who voted for me, sure, I'll edit my plan. However, the danger Lash represents doesn't strongly depend on the level of personal power her body holds. The danger is, and always going to be, betrayal. Acquiring power would be easy. She knows how darkhallow works. She could pick up a coin - not necessarily Lasciel's. She could make a pact with a demon trading some of her knowledge. She probably knows where a lot of buried magical treasure is, and where a lot of evils are sealed. I don't really think she'd be any less dangerous in a 3 dot body, then she would be in a 5 dot one.
TLF does not apply, Molly does not conceptualize all of physical reality as a hazardous environment.
OK. So, if we are doing this in our kingdom, then it's dc4 with shintai, DC 5 without. At least two AP then, most likely 1 AP + 2 bonus AP. This limits ward making for Cauldron members, and our friends, which I consider near-essential. Still, if we delay Porter's body 1 turn, we should be able to afford this. Get it done by, or symbolically on Christmas. She's White God's granddaughter, right? I mean, she's a demon/god blood daughter of Lasciel, who is likely a second circle deva of White God the Primordial, and Dresden.


Scariest thought - if Lash was to be killed in the Red Court ritual from Changes, then, assuming no perfect defenses, who would die?
 
Prefer to go for the 5 dot body from the start. There is no way to even get info on how a 5 dot body would end up as it is, as mentioned, kinda unprecedented. Only reason to not go for it would be the assumption that she would betray Molly and Harry and if she does it does not matter what body she got as it is the knowledge she holds that is the danger.
 
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