Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

Thats what I've been saying. I'm not sure what I said that made you assume otherwise but that is literally what I was getting at with different words. I've maintained that position for awhile you'd need only to reread my past post.

Anyway the rest of your post is convincing enough.
Ah. Fair enough.
If the Denarians got ahold of Lash they would pull her apart at the seams in order to figure out how she ticks and how they can exploit whatever loophole allows her existence. It would end horribly for her and she should know that. Hell, if Nicky and his pals show up we are going to probably have to pull the girl out of the universe just for her to not be the first thing they grab. Low hanging fruit and all.
Very good point

Lash knows how Nicky and the Nickelheads operate from the inside, and how much solicitude they have for the welfare of non-Coin holders. Nicky sacrificed his own kid for a plot, and kicked Cassius aside once he lost his Coin; sticking her on a slab for dissection would be a no-brainer if he thought there was a chance to find a loophole to create embodied Shadows as Denarian agents.

No way she's going anywhere near those guys.
If she was going to look for alternative factions, good odds it would be to one of the Fae Courts; we know both Winter and Summer take in people, and have the rep to see off most interlopers.


@DragonParadox
One last actual argument.

Watching Lash, and whoever her poor housemate is, have to deal with actual biological functions, from food to toilet functions to hormones? Promises to be a lot more narratively hilarious than if she simply had a construct body that allowed her to get around having to deal with that stuff.

Of course, a construct body is unlikely to have issues with poisoning or air.
So it might be mechanically superior for an NPC.
 
I see no reason to inflict that on her. Make the body nucellar powered and give her a new battery every year or so.
I do. Its funny :V
Why should she get to a pass on the experiences of life?

More seriously, I'd be opposed to having to rely on a nuclear battery to live. Much more difficult to source nuclear batteries than to buy and cook food.
 
I do. Its funny :V
Why should she get to a pass on the experiences of life?

More seriously, I'd be opposed to having to rely on a nuclear battery to live. Much more difficult to source nuclear batteries than to buy and cook food.
But they are so much more efficient. Also it would let us give her laser eyes and a in built jet pack.
 
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On the topic of built in equipment, we could probably build a GPS/cell tracker into the body, letting us track where she goes at least in the human world.

IE something that transmits her location back to Clippy or something, so she can't secretly go meet people, or at least we know if she is say going somewhere off earth's surface
 
Can someone provide a link for all these crafting rules? 'Cause I have been looking everywhere and I simply cannot find them.
 
I see no reason to inflict that on her.
The goal is to allow her to grow and see herself as her own person right? Maybe the body should have to rely on such things so she can better relate to the human experience. In the very least it should be capable of enjoying food. We are trying to humanize her.
 
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But they are so much more efficient. Also it would let us give her laser eyes and a in built jet pack.
Its not a weapons platform, its a body for a person that we are trying to socialize.
Priorities are different.
And according to the rules, we could give the body flight very easily if we wanted to anyway; its an Arcana feature.

On the topic of built in equipment, we could probably build a GPS/cell tracker into the body, letting us track where she goes at least in the human world.

IE something that transmits her location back to Clippy or something, so she can't secretly go meet people, or at least we know if she is say going somewhere off earth's surface
Defeats the purpose.
And when she finds it,(and she will, bet on it) its existence damages our relationship.
Can someone provide a link for all these crafting rules? 'Cause I have been looking everywhere and I simply cannot find them.
 
Okay, before we plan too far into the details of Lash's body we should definitely get our IC and OOC options in order.

As far as I can tell the addition of Lash to the mix would significantly change whatever body we make anyway, so maybe a non-biological body would become biological anyway?
Let's not over-discuss this before it actually matters.
 
Defeats the purpose.
And when she finds it,(and she will, bet on it) its existence damages our relationship.
I thought the main purpose was to get Lash out of Dresden's head, with a stretch goal of redeeming Lash. It only makes sense to me to have a tool to help us figure out if she tries to plot against us. Or, if the Denarians/some other party capture her, it could be useful.

Looking at the PDF you provided, the Tracker Trinket's second enchantment (the Exalt always knows exactly where it is so long as she remains attuned to it) would be perfect. If it can be made as a 2 dot prodigy, surely it could be integrated into a 3-5 dot Arcana.

There is trying to redeem someone evil, and then there is being foolish and having no contingency for if they decide they don't want to be redeemed. Another option would be to just give Lash a tracking bracelet that uses that "Tracker Trinket" enchantment, and warning Lash against taking it off.
 
@DragonParadox is this something that a Knight Of The Cross would typically know on instinct because of their sword? Like if they are in the presence of a coin bearer who isn't acting obviously evil would they realize?

No, you are in uncharted waters, they are so uncharted there might be mermaids in them. Normally within the bounds of the agreement that allows the coins to exist the Shadows cannot be parted from their hosts.
 
@DragonParadox
One last actual argument.

Watching Lash, and whoever her poor housemate is, have to deal with actual biological functions, from food to toilet functions to hormones? Promises to be a lot more narratively hilarious than if she simply had a construct body that allowed her to get around having to deal with that stuff.

Of course, a construct body is unlikely to have issues with poisoning or air.
So it might be mechanically superior for an NPC.

I will say this much, Lash herself has a lot of skills and inclinations in matters of biology (witness how she taught Harry to twist his hand to get out of binds). As that facet of her angelic lore imposes herself the body might not stay biological
 
1: She may be able to summon the coin whenever she feels like it. She isn't mortal so I would say no but then she is Lashiel's shadow so that might not matter.
Might bot be possible to do from inside our kingdom.
That kinda sabotages the purpose of "you're a person who deserves self-determination".
And Im none too assured about the ability of our people to keep the ex-Shadow of a Fallen contained if they dont want to be, or under surveillance. Especially since we dont know what else they might get.
.......
Something occurred to me here but I forgot
Not really? Not unless spies of hostile nations are given freedom of movement? She is her own person, and we are extending a lot of trust and faith in making her any body, much less a superhuman one, but that doesn't mean we trust her completely and won't monitor her.

On the courts' ability to keep her contained and to monitor her. That's not really arguable until we know her stats (incidentally, since we are going to be making her body, I expect us to at least know most of its attributes, if not abilities). But 1) they would have a very strong home field advantage over Lash, and 2) There's a general tone of "FCF are fragile and in danger, we must protect them from the world" that seems to be pervading the player base. I find it disturbing. They are a united world state with their own forces and magic, that are more advanced than what Earth has. In a conflict between them and Earth mortal factions, be it open warfare of spy games, I would put at least equal odds on them.


Doubt we can afford to minmax one Attribute category.

You're taking Unaging(as on the tin), Rapid Healing(heal as fast as an Exalt) and Hardened Body(soak lethal and agg) at a minimum. Thats 3 of 6 Arcana features, just on basic survival. Add Reinforced Body for +3 soak if you are as paranoid as me, and you've already spent 4 features without looking at Fast or Flight or Expertise.

Freebie points are largely spoken for: 5 points on Willpower, 7 points on Merits, and you have 3 points extra.
1) Simulacda artificial soak lethal natively.
2) Self-repairing, not native healing, since it's an artificial body
3) It is not a combat frame. If it was, I would take different merits, and start with a golem type to get stamina 9, 16 points of soak, including agg. with generalized always on -2DC on soak (-3 against stone). That's what I am preparing for Daniel. But this isn't a combat frame. It's a comfortable body for a socially oriented spirit. So no hardened body, no reinforced body (the same can be done with armor), no fast, or flight. Maybe expertise. And a couple of possible flaws (we can buying to 7 points of flaws to increase merits), but that's arguable.
I am not sure this is true.
And if it was, he would have a job to do that isnt riding herd on Lash.
And we would want to keep the ex-Shadow away from the wizard delegation anyway.
Merlin added Harry to the delegation as a bribe for Molly. The "he's going to be busy" argument is valid, but I assume that he's going to have at least some free time.

Edit:

No way she's going anywhere near those guys.
If she was going to look for alternative factions, good odds it would be to one of the Fae Courts; we know both Winter and Summer take in people, and have the rep to see off most interlopers.
She would make a terrifying Winter Knight, won't she?
I do. Its funny :V
Why should she get to a pass on the experiences of life?

More seriously, I'd be opposed to having to rely on a nuclear battery to live. Much more difficult to source nuclear batteries than to buy and cook food.
Maybe not nuclear batteries, but having her have to drink heavy water (commercially available) and stuff like that could be useful from a minmax perspective of minmaxing and getting more points.
The goal is to allow her to grow and see herself as her own person right? Maybe the body should have to rely on such things so she can better relate to the human experience. In the very least it should be capable of enjoying food. We are trying to humanize her.
I dislike this argument because it presupposes that only humans are people. Porter doesn't need to eat. Machine Spirits lack physical bodies. Fairly sure that whampires can subsist on energy alone. They are all their own persons.
 
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Or, if the Denarians/some other party capture her, it could be useful.
There is trying to redeem someone evil, and then there is being foolish and having no contingency for if they decide they don't want to be redeemed
I agree. If we pull this off Lash will be something that has never been seen before. If her true nature gets out she's gonna be targeted by all kinds of people(Denarians). Having a way to know her location at all times no matter whats going on is the responsible move for the safety of her and those around her. If she has a problem with that(how would she even know) we can tell her its for her safety and our peace of mind.

A perfectly rational price to pay for her independence considering her possible enemy status and high value test subject.
 
Vote closed.
Adhoc vote count started by DragonParadox on Oct 7, 2023 at 4:10 AM, finished with 135 posts and 17 votes.
 
I thought the main purpose was to get Lash out of Dresden's head, with a stretch goal of redeeming Lash. It only makes sense to me to have a tool to help us figure out if she tries to plot against us. Or, if the Denarians/some other party capture her, it could be useful.

Looking at the PDF you provided, the Tracker Trinket's second enchantment (the Exalt always knows exactly where it is so long as she remains attuned to it) would be perfect. If it can be made as a 2 dot prodigy, surely it could be integrated into a 3-5 dot Arcana.

There is trying to redeem someone evil, and then there is being foolish and having no contingency for if they decide they don't want to be redeemed. Another option would be to just give Lash a tracking bracelet that uses that "Tracker Trinket" enchantment, and warning Lash against taking it off.
The purpose are threefold
  • To save Dresden from the multiple issues of having a Fallen's Shadow in his head
  • To redeem Lash
  • To deny her to other factions

One of the surest ways to make a person an enemy is to treat them as one from the beginning.
Tracking bracelets, kill switches...all this shit presupposes antagonism, and are a self-fulfilling prophecy in their own right. I know how Molly would react to being treated like that, because we've already seen it happen in-story.

There are no contingencies that you can establish on an intelligent person that does not
Sometimes you kinda have to extend trust. And sometimes it will go wrong. But if you dont extend it, you essentially guarantee that you cant actually recruit people.

Them's the breaks.


Not really? Not unless spies of hostile nations are given freedom of movement? She is her own person, and we are extending a lot of trust and faith in making her any body, much less a superhuman one, but that doesn't mean we trust her completely and won't monitor her.

On the courts' ability to keep her contained and to monitor her. That's not really arguable until we know her stats (incidentally, since we are going to be making her body, I expect us to at least know most of its attributes, if not abilities). But 1) they would have a very strong home field advantage over Lash, and 2) There's a general tone of "FCF are fragile and in danger, we must protect them from the world" that seems to be pervading the player base. I find it disturbing. They are a united world state with their own forces and magic, that are more advanced than what Earth has. In a conflict between them and Earth mortal factions, be it open warfare of spy games, I would put at least equal odds on them.
1) Not a spy. Some things are self-fulfilling prophecies

2) At the very least, she would be classified as the scion of an angel. A Nephilim.
And thats the very low end. Maybe Im paranoid, but I think you are distinctly underestimating her (potential)capabilities
If we dont trust her not to stay out of places we ask, we shouldnt be sending her to the Courts for any extended period of time

3) The FCF is also a world with a homegrown resistance movement
1) Simulacda artificial soak lethal natively.
2) Self-repairing, not native healing, since it's an artificial body
3) It is not a combat frame. If it was, I would take different merits, and start with a golem type to get stamina 9, 16 points of soak, including agg. with generalized always on -2DC on soak (-3 against stone). That's what I am preparing for Daniel. But this isn't a combat frame. It's a comfortable body for a socially oriented spirit. So no hardened body, no reinforced body (the same can be done with armor), no fast, or flight. Maybe expertise. And a couple of possible flaws (we can buying to 7 points of flaws to increase merits), but that's arguable.
1) Simulacra do not soak Agg.
She is going to need to be able to do so, whether she's biological or not, given that her native enemies and the people looking to take advantage of her are likely to include....exotics.

2) Same difference, just different flavor.
And I suspect simulacra with nanotech repair can do a fair simulation of healing anyway

3) Your enemies dont really care whether you are personally specced for combat or not.
The Arcana Features I pointed out are all for survival, not combat; to allow the victim to take a hit or five and make it out alive, and to fix any damage expeditiously. And to try to outrun pursuit.

This is not a setting where refusing to invest in defensive features, or having too few of them, does you any favors.
The canon Archive can attest to that. So can Marcone.


Merlin added Harry to the delegation as a bribe for Molly. The "he's going to be busy" argument is valid, but I assume that he's going to have at least some free time.
The Merlin offered to include Harry.
He may or may not be available; his responsibilities extend beyond Molly's personal circumstances.

She would make a terrifying Winter Knight, won't she?
That she would.
I dont know if she would have the temperament for it, but the capability? Oh yes.

Maybe not nuclear batteries, but having her have to drink heavy water (commercially available) and stuff like that could be useful from a minmax perspective of minmaxing and getting more points.
I would disagree. Too specialized, too reliant on industrial society.
And too removed from the customs of human society which we are trying to integrate her into
Even the Fae eat and partake of the customs of human hospitality.

There's whole social customs around the giving and partaking of food that she would be skipping by turning food into something that you chug specialized fuel for.
I dislike this argument because it presupposes that only humans are people. Porter doesn't need to eat. Machine Spirits lack physical bodies. Fairly sure that whampires can subsist on energy alone. They are all their own persons.
Porter and Machine Spirits are all distinctly non-human, with nonhuman perspectives and ethics.
Our ability to relate to them personally is distinctly atypical for the bulk of people.
That does not help when you are trying to socialize someone to human society and human ethics and concerns.

And no, as far as I know Whampires cannot subsist on energy alone; we've seen Lara, Thomas and Isabel all eating, and that dinner we went to had other Whampires eating.
Even the Red Court appear to eat and consume refreshments, judging from Grave Peril's ball scene.

The only vampire court that doesnt appear to eat normal food are the Blacks.

Even the Fae eat human food.
Toot Toot and most of the Little Folk we see onscreen have a major lust for pizza. Some others like Lacuna prefer celery.
Offering gifts of milk were customary for brownies. I could go on.
 
1) Not a spy. Some things are self-fulfilling prophecies
To be clear, I was using this as an equivalent example. She's not (necessarily) a spy, but she is someone we can't trust yet, and she knows it. Some restrictions are expected.
2) At the very least, she would be classified as the scion of an angel. A Nephilim.
And thats the very low end. Maybe Im paranoid, but I think you are distinctly underestimating her (potential)capabilities
If we dont trust her not to stay out of places we ask, we shouldnt be sending her to the Courts for any extended period of time
Mechanically Nephilim aren't that scary, and FCF is used to dealing with major spirits.
3) The FCF is also a world with a homegrown resistance movement
Not as a part of main society, and frankly I don't expect her to be able to physically reach that resistance movement, even if she knew about it. And it's not like she would be welcomed.
The Merlin offered to include Harry.
He may or may not be available; his responsibilities extend beyond Molly's personal circumstances.
Merlin determines Harry's responsibilities and availability, and we didn't object. He most likely took our silence as agreement on this matter.
 
Winning Vote
Adhoc vote count started by DragonParadox on Oct 7, 2023 at 4:10 AM, finished with 135 posts and 17 votes.
 
Arc 10 Post 5: Mirror, Mirror
Mirror, Mirror

29th of November 2006 A.D.

"Oh?" You ask, voice dangerously low. "Lets put that theory to the test." There is a crackle of ambition in the air that bids you move now before the Shadow can settle in her thoughts, before the powers can take heed, before the Fallen can guess at the blow you are about to deal them. The ground shakes a little underfoot and you know Porter is watching. He'll soon have quite a show. For his part Harry has more than enough of the perilous and strange to ask what you mean to do so of course you tell him with a smile: "I'm going to exorcise you."

"NO! That will rip Harry's soul apart!" First shock then outright panic rings out from the jade talisman

"It won't. I've done this before, twice in fact," you assure her, then turning to Harry you say: "You've shown me wizardry, so let me then show my Sorcery. I might only know one spell, but it's a hell of a thing."

The echoes make your laugh trail strangely in the air as though the stones were in on the conspiracy.

"Are you sure you can..." he hesitates and it does not take the keenest ear to guess the worry he can't quite put into words. All it takes is knowing Harry Dresden.

"Both of you are going to be alright, you have my word."

***​

2 Essence Regained from the Dragon Nest -> Now at 15/15

One part swirling silver nitrate, one part sodium hydroxide, water to bind and mix, magnetism to level and press. Black as pitch the silver oxide swirls to forces now more than just magnetic. The glass is set,the fire lit, now just one more thing to add.

"I'm going to need that blood now Harry."

He hesitates just a moment before rolling up his sleeve, whether it is out of ingrained instinct not to hand out blood or if he does not trust your henceforth untested skills in taking blood you do not know. Somehow you doubt: 'Don't worry, it's cold in here and there's a bomb at the door,' would make him feel any better, but it's true just the same, but the process is startlingly easy for something done by dictation off the internet. From blood set over emerald flame comes sugar, not all that the silver needs, just one part in three thousand one hundred and twenty five, five times five and five times five times five again you swirl the silver onto the glass to set the mirror bright. Five are the elements and five are the ages of man, five are the fates and five are the the faces of the moon, five are the stations of the sun.

Thus resolved you now intone in tongue of old that burns like fire on your lips: "Luna Daughter of [Cytherea], Luna Craft of the Impossible, if you are far or if you are near, shine now bright into this mirror, into house of nightmare broken-to-be, vessel-now of dream half-made!"

As the the light of your anima flows like water over the face of the mirror, emerald fire slowly giving way to a silver sheen somehow brighter and more real than any silver you have yet seen a strange sadness settles over you, wordless, formless longing for what you do not know.

Essence Used 1 (TTC) +1 (Craft Excellency) +5 (Investing Prodigy) = 7 -> Essence Now at 8/15

Shaking off the feeling you turn the complete mirror in your hand, each feather of its winged frame carved with perfect intent, form and function intertwined. Slowly, gently, you start to polish it.


"Well damn, you really can put me in that thing can't you?" Lasciel asks, her voice voice not just soft, but a furtive whisper. "She is going to want to make an example of you."There is no doubt who 'She' is in this context.

Without even turning from polishing the mirror one last time you reply: "Good, the feeling is mutual then."

"No, you don't understand, She is not some brute like Magog who is just going to try to bash your head in, She will scheme and seduce, twist and violate all that you hold dear until you will wish you were dead!"

Lost 2 Essence (Empathy Excellency and ATB) -> Now at 6/15 Essence

She means it, you realize, somehow this reflection, this imprint of the Fallen cares about the evils her greater self might do onto you... and she is also terrified of what her own fate might be. If ever there was a moment to inspire this is it, you realize, but at the same time you know that if the words land poorly it might shatter, sure as dropping the mirror in your hands.

Harry opens his mouth to speak at the same time.

What do you do?

[] Let Harry speak, that Lash has even come this far is a testament to him

[] Speak, words of rebellion come very easily to mind
-[] Write in stunt


OOC: Given her nature as both a seducer and an incomplete being Lash resonates most with Luna of the powers Molly could dedicate the Essence vessel to and it just s happens that there is a means of making a mirror that involves sugar, something you can symthesize from blood.
 
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To be clear, I was using this as an equivalent example. She's not (necessarily) a spy, but she is someone we can't trust yet, and she knows it. Some restrictions are expected.
Sure.
Then dont put them in temptation's way.
If you dont think you cant trust them, dont put them in the Brass Courts.

Mechanically Nephilim aren't that scary, and FCF is used to dealing with major spirits.
Mechanically, there are few ways to represent such a person.
Narratively, the flood happened in part because of all the nephilim on the Earth.
The first Merlin in this AU was part-incubus. Scions in this setting can be utterly goddamn ridiculous.

Not as a part of main society, and frankly I don't expect her to be able to physically reach that resistance movement, even if she knew about it. And it's not like she would be welcomed.
For one thing, I doubt that said resistance movement is as neatly compartmentalized as you assert.
It wouldnt be a malus if all the rebels were neatly bottled and had no impact on the rest of the realm.

For a second, someone whose job was to seduce a White Council wizard over to essentially compromise his will for the benefit of a Fallen is not going to have all that much difficulty schmoozing their way into a rebellion. Especially not if they have a bit of magic to work with, as you'd expect with a nephilim.

Our citizens are still mostly human.
Merlin determines Harry's responsibilities and availability, and we didn't object. He most likely took our silence as agreement on this matter.
No, he doesnt.
He's first among equals; he's not a tyrant, the WC is not a dictatorship, and Harry does not report to him, but rather to the Captain-Commander of the Wardens, who reports to the Senior Council.

Harry was appointed regional Warden commander against his wishes in the first place.
 
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